WHO ARE THE TWENTY FOUR ELDERS

[His_disciple3]

Rev.22:8

And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9

Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How do you know that this person is an 'angel'? He says he is a 'prophet' not an angel! Angels cannot sing the song of the redeemed for they have never needed to be washed in the blood of the Lamb our Saviour, Jesus. Yes there are songs that all in heaven sing but only the redeemed have a song that they sing.

To say that a human who dies becomes an angel is false theology.

look at verse 8, read the text ! John called Him an ANGEL

Edited February 5, 2013 by His_disciple3

[His_disciple3]

Rev.22:8

...of thy brethren the prophets...

Right, Angels are not our brothers, they serve us, under God.

scriptures are what said what i said, verse 8 john said he fell at the feet of the Angel, and the Angel said not to do that for he was a fellowservant a brethren of the prophets, your understanding of the rank of Angels may be alittle off, they may look after us, for God but they serve God not us, remember scriptures when it says that Jesus was made a little lower than angels when He took on flesh, angels are above us not under us

Edited February 5, 2013 by His_disciple3

[He giveth more grace]

Angel means messenger and as a man in heaven he was the messenger to guided and showed John heaven. It clearly states that he was "a fellowservant and of they brethren the prophet" and what we generally speak of as Angels is neither.

[OneLight]

Verse nine, as I read it, can be read like this:

Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and the fellow servant of your brethren the prophets, and the fellow servant of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

I have never read that a man ever became an angel.

[franciskelsey]

you know this is your thread, so seeing that you brought it up, I find it amazing not amuzing that you would tear down a brother/sister in Christ as to find belittlement through laughter at their way of seeing scriptures, seeing that when "we go up" is not a salvational or gospel issue. *** edited out personal insults ***

I apologize disciple as my intent was not to offend. It was only a direct response to the above post in which it contained a pre trib view of the 24 elder. Based on that, I certainly found fit, even if not the wisest decision, to comment.

, I will paraphrase some scripture, such as Jesus said One will be left and another taken, see clearly if you understand the definition of resurrection is the raising of the dead or bringing up from the grave, this event Jesus is referring to; is taking up live people, and there is not even the first mention of any dead being raised, why for 1 thes, 4 clearly says during the taking up/rapure, the dead in Christ( not all the dead) were already raised at this point "then we which remain are taken up", and by this way of occurance this clearly can't be either the first or second/last resurrection spoken of from scriptures. also in 1 thes. 4 we can see that just the ones that are in Christ are raised."those that are asleep in Christ" the last day resurrection all the dead are raised. clearly two separate events,

Though this topic should really be on another thread, and it is, I will briefly comment. Any further discussion on such should perhaps be on a newly or existing thread.

In Luke the story is in relation to the great flood and Sodom, which was one event and there was no seven year period after the fact. Also, Jesus will be very visible with no secret coming. Your implication on Thes. passage indicates you believe Paul and others were left behind in the first rapture, thus not being part of the church, though, they have already died. All dead are raised after the thousand years. This is the second resurrection. This is a blessed hope . I am glad through Christ we are counted worthy to be included in the first resurrection.

also one must clearly have some understanding of jewish ways and traditions to see some things clearly from scriptures, we can learn from Ester that in times past a future bride was set aside in the bride's chamber for weeks before the wedding and made over and perfumed and made ready for the marriage ceremony, so in order for the wedding to be ready, the bride would have already been separated, cleansed and purified for the Bridegroom

The bible states when we die we are with Jesus. Wedding traditions forbid contact with the groom until the wedding its self. It should be noted every wedding story was not identical though the main tradition were normal -- 1 year gap, groom getting bride at her house taking her to his house, and the ceremony. Even in this there were differences.

so now some will say that revelation in not in chronological, but when John writes and then this happened and then this happened these events are in chronological order, so here are the scriptures that you seek,

How many times does the sun go black, the moon turn to red, and the stars fall from the sky?

the Bride/the Church is there in Heaven :

Rev 19:6

And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

then we have the First resurrection and please take note here who are raised the tribulation saints, who have refused the mark of the beast and been beheaded, so John says the wedding Is come( is here ) and then the tribulations saints are raised: this has to be even before the last day resurrection: Clearly. from scriptures :

Rev 20:4

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

side note here some preach, that the church comes back with Jesus but have you ever heard of a king taking His bride to the battlefield, it is His tribulation saints He brings back with Him. now we have gotten to your resurrection where you believe 1 Thes . 4 takes place , but again please note that all the dead( the dead) are raised not just those that are asleep in Christ as those in 1 Thes. 4

Rev 20:12

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I am not amuzed at you not be able to see two separate events, brother, but rather praying for you. and would ask your prayer for me as welll.

In Revelation things are announced before the actual event, even seen in chapter 18 and many many more. The bride of Christ is all Christians and so being, by excluding the tribulation saints it would seem they are made second class. Two resurrections. Blessed are those of us who take part in the first. I will not teary on with further explanation on this thread but feel free to start up another. I would love talking more about it. My prayers are with you too. We only have to see Jesus as King to be brothers my friend. These other differences are miner and obsolete when we see Jesus.

I will respond to the rest shortly

Edited February 5, 2013 by franciskelsey

[franciskelsey]

you make it sound like a bad thing that saints becomes angels, when with scripture we should syrely believe this to be so, John fell at the feet of an angel, and the angel said that he was of John's brethren the prophets :

Rev 22:8

And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9

Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

4889 sýndoulos (from 4862 /sýn, "closely identified with" and 1401 /doúlos, "bond-slave") – properly, a fellow bond-servant (slave), belonging to the same master.

This is the implication. He, like John, was a servant, or slave, to Christ. It was relating a position of similarity and not of one stating equal with humans.

This can be known by knowing the roles the angels play. Created by God (Ne 9:6; Col 1:16) Worship God and Christ (Ph'p 2:9-11) and doing the will of God (PS 103:20; Matt 6:10)

Angels, just like stated already, are NEVER said to be saints that were transformed. In fact, they were created before man.

<< Job 38 >>

New Living Translation

The Lord Challenges Job

1Then the Lord answered Job from the whirlwind:

2“Who is this that questions my wisdom

with such ignorant words?

3Brace yourself like a man,

because I have some questions for you,

and you must answer them.

4“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?

Tell me, if you know so much.

5Who determined its dimensions

and stretched out the surveying line?

6What supports its foundations,

and who laid its cornerstone

7as the morning stars sang together

and all the angels^a shouted for joy?

The Greek word used was translated seven times as servant but 181 times as angel, so most likely referring to an angel even more so when relating it to Revelation chapter 1:1 where servant is stated different from the word angel, however, He giveth more grace point could be justified by Revelation 6:11.

In any event, I hope all of the great responses from others help you understand saints do not become angels.

God bless

[JohnD]

Bible doesn't say.

If John the Revelator was indeed the Apostle John and the elders consisted of some combination of Apostles and Patriarchs or faithful men and women from the Old Testament... then John would be seeing himself or there would be 23 elders.

We have enough to deal with on points the Bible is clear on. Speculation or building traditions of men on points the Bible is silent about is silly and a waste of time.

[franciskelsey]

Bible doesn't say.

If John the Revelator was indeed the Apostle John and the elders consisted of some combination of Apostles and Patriarchs or faithful men and women from the Old Testament... then John would be seeing himself or there would be 23 elders.

We have enough to deal with on points the Bible is clear on. Speculation or building traditions of men on points the Bible is silent about is silly and a waste of time.

Thanks for the comments. I had thought of the fact John saw 24, thus not including himself, before but the response from some is John was seeing the 24 is a representation of the entire church and not necessarily 24 actual humans thus I had left that aspect out, but it does hold a good point any way.

I would agree with you in part on your second comment. The trouble for me is this. Many that have various doctrines use passages like these (the 24 elders) to make a case for their own doctrine. Thus, in doing so, their doctrine seems questionable from the start as scripture like this does not make anything concrete relating to doctrine. To me, that is why some off beat questions do become important. More so, when certain doctrine goes against what seems plain in the bible.

However, in the end, all intense, or heated debates are worthless if they do not include Jesus Christ is God, the only way to heaven, and the forgiver of sins. The whole purpose of being on this earth is to show Jesus, share Jesus, and hopefully be of service to God to draw others to the only family that matters in the end. Whoever is not part of Gods family, in the end, has no family.

God bless

Edited February 7, 2013 by franciskelsey

[He giveth more grace]

If John the Revelator was indeed the Apostle John and the elders consisted of some combination of Apostles and Patriarchs or faithful men and women from the Old Testament... then John would be seeing himself or there would be 23 elders.

"...yea though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

The 24 elders were glorified men and who knows what that meant to the appearance of a man and we must remember that this is a similitude, a vision, and perhaps there faces were not clear, one must be open for variables John was not actually in Heaven, it was just a vision, I think that I can say this.

[joi]

Food for thought:

Learn the Bible in 24 Hours, Chuck Missler, Pg. 288

“Two things in that throne room are extremely significant: the lamp stands and the twenty-four Elders. The seven lamps of fire, which Jesus has identified as the churches which were on the earth in chapter one, are now before the throne in chapter four. Another prominent feature in chapter four is the appearance of the twenty-four Elders. These twenty-four Elders identify themselves as the kings and priests of the redeemed.

1 Chron. 24

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. [Rev. 5:9,10]