Salvation

[OneLight]

Read what the Greek says. Jesus is speaking to believers. Believers are the only ones who have their name written in the Book of Life.

I am sorry to disappoint you my friend but there is two books mentioned in scriptures, the book of life where everyone that has ever lived has been part of, then there is the Lamb's book of life, where those that are in Christ is written, so for someone to have their name taken out of the book of life is simply that, they stop living, let me share another verse that will support that those in Christ never die, I will be given it to you in english, that is my language

Joh_8:52

Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

of course there is a teaching concerning that the book of life and the lamb's book of life is indeed the same Book that everyone is written and are only blotted out when they reject Christ, so actaully your verses prove nothing concerning salvation

The teaching of the book of life being the names of all who have lived is a false teaching. Read Revelation 20:15 "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." If this book contained everyone who ever lived, then nobody would be cast into the lake of fire.

[saved34]

Yet, you refuse to discuss what Jesus Himself said while claiming I am wrong in my understanding. I speak of the letters Jesus wrote to the 7 churches and am not jumping all over the place while doing so. The subject is if someone can loose their salvation by their choices, where salvation is discussed in scripture a lot. I brought in the letter from Jesus to the churches for this reason.

Bro, maybe you missed my post, but I addressed your rather long post nearly point by point. What am I to do if you ignore my responses and start new discussions? You say a man can lose salvation by his choice, yet the thought of that is foreign to scripture. A man can draw back into apostasy and be exposed as not being of us, not being the same as us who truly believe, but to say one who has placed his or her trust in Christ can perish is not scriptural. You go to revelation and take what Christ spoke to the 7 Churches (all real LOCAL churches, and not the one true church) and try to make them fit your own beliefs and disprove scripture like Eph. 2:8, John 3:16, John 5, etc. I think it has been fully established that those who turn back are not saved to begin with. You and others may not accept this, but enough scripture has been provided to show this. On the other spectrum, who is it that will judge the saint of God? God said he is the one who justifies.

Rom 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

Who shall condemn the saint of God? Where is condemnation going to come from if God himself says he Justifies and Christ paid the ultimate price for our redemption?

Rom 8:34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

​Would you or anyone on this board dare say these promises are based on our measly performance? Are you willing to say that our justification before God is based on how well we work? Do we have these promises before the world began, or are we only promised these things based off how we live? If you say these promises are ours by the grace of God, how then can one be lost if he is saved? You say by choice, but Christ says his sheep follow him, and they will flee from a strangers voice. There is no if in it at all. We are born of incorruptible seed, our new nature will never turn back because it comes from God. To believe one can lose salvation comes from a fundamental lack of understanding of what happens at the moment of salvation, and also a lack of understanding concerning the new birth. Born from above, and united spiritually to Christ, sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit and protected by the power of God. That is biblical salvation.

Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

1Co 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

1Pe 1:4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you,

1Pe 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

[saved34]

Read what the Greek says. Jesus is speaking to believers. Believers are the only ones who have their name written in the Book of Life.

I am sorry to disappoint you my friend but there is two books mentioned in scriptures, the book of life where everyone that has ever lived has been part of, then there is the Lamb's book of life, where those that are in Christ is written, so for someone to have their name taken out of the book of life is simply that, they stop living, let me share another verse that will support that those in Christ never die, I will be given it to you in english, that is my language

Joh_8:52

Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

of course there is a teaching concerning that the book of life and the lamb's book of life is indeed the same Book that everyone is written and are only blotted out when they reject Christ, so actaully your verses prove nothing concerning salvation

The teaching of the book of life being the names of all who have lived is a false teaching. Read Revelation 20:15 "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." If this book contained everyone who ever lives, then nobody would be cast into the lake of fire.

I think the book of Daniel gives a good sense of what is being said. "names found", ie not blotted out.

Dan 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.

Psalms touches on it as well.

Psa 69:26 For they persecute those you wound and talk about the pain of those you hurt.

Psa 69:27 Charge them with crime upon crime; do not let them share in your salvation.

Psa 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.

[OneLight]

Yet, you refuse to discuss what Jesus Himself said while claiming I am wrong in my understanding. I speak of the letters Jesus wrote to the 7 churches and am not jumping all over the place while doing so. The subject is if someone can loose their salvation by their choices, where salvation is discussed in scripture a lot. I brought in the letter from Jesus to the churches for this reason.

Bro, maybe you missed my post, but I addressed your rather long post nearly point by point. What am I to do if you ignore my responses and start new discussions? You say a man can lose salvation by his choice, yet the thought of that is foreign to scripture. A man can draw back into apostasy and be exposed as not being of us, not being the same as us who truly believe, but to say one who has placed his or her trust in Christ can perish is not scriptural. You go to revelation and take what Christ spoke to the 7 Churches (all real LOCAL churches, and not the one true church) and try to make them fit your own beliefs and disprove scripture like Eph. 2:8, John 3:16, John 5, etc. I think it has been fully established that those who turn back are not saved to begin with. You and others may not accept this, but enough scripture has been provided to show this. On the other spectrum, who is it that will judge the saint of God? God said he is the one who justifies.

Rom 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

Who shall condemn the saint of God? Where is condemnation going to come from if God himself says he Justifies and Christ paid the ultimate price for our redemption?

Rom 8:34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

​Would you or anyone on this board dare say these promises are based on our measly performance? Are you willing to say that our justification before God is based on how well we work? Do we have these promises before the world began, or are we only promised these things based off how we live? If you say these promises are ours by the grace of God, how then can one be lost if he is saved? You say by choice, but Christ says his sheep follow him, and they will flee from a strangers voice. There is no if in it at all. We are born of incorruptible seed, our new nature will never turn back because it comes from God. To believe one can lose salvation comes from a fundamental lack of understanding of what happens at the moment of salvation, and also a lack of understanding concerning the new birth. Born from above, and united spiritually to Christ, sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit and protected by the power of God. That is biblical salvation.

Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

1Co 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

1Pe 1:4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you,

1Pe 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

You did not address one word Jesus said, but tried to sift the conversation to another part of scripture. Let me be as plain as possible. What do you think about what Jesus said to the church of Sardis pertaining to being blotted out of the Book of Life? Here is the scripture once again.

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

[saved34]

You did not address one word Jesus said, but tried to sift the conversation to another part of scripture. Let me be as plain as possible. What do you think about what Jesus said to the church of Sardis pertaining to being blotted out of the Book of Life? Here is the scripture once again.

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Our Lord made a very clear statement, and one that can easily be understood when comparing scripture. First, "he who overcomes". Every single one of God's born one's overcomes the world, this is a bible fact.

1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

1Jn 4:4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

While you are doing your best to prove a point that one can be blotted out, you miss the bigger picture in that this is Christ reiterating his precious promises of never blotting out the name of the one who overcomes. All saints of God over come and our garments are made white by his precious blood. The thought is not the threat of being blotted out, but that the over comer will not be blotted out.

[His_disciple3]

Read what the Greek says. Jesus is speaking to believers. Believers are the only ones who have their name written in the Book of Life.

I am sorry to disappoint you my friend but there is two books mentioned in scriptures, the book of life where everyone that has ever lived has been part of, then there is the Lamb's book of life, where those that are in Christ is written, so for someone to have their name taken out of the book of life is simply that, they stop living, let me share another verse that will support that those in Christ never die, I will be given it to you in english, that is my language

Joh_8:52

Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

of course there is a teaching concerning that the book of life and the lamb's book of life is indeed the same Book that everyone is written and are only blotted out when they reject Christ, so actaully your verses prove nothing concerning salvation

The teaching of the book of life being the names of all who have lived is a false teaching. Read Revelation 20:15 "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." If this book contained everyone who ever lived, then nobody would be cast into the lake of fire.

didn't you read my last staement about the teaching of some as to saying that everybody is written in the Book of life, and only after they have rejected Christ are their names blotted out, thus anyone not found in the book was cast in to hell

[Elhanan]

Elhanan, these men in question were still "teaching doctrines". They were not outwardly denying Christ, but teaching things contrary to the Christian faith such as forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats. In other instances they were teaching that the resurrection had already passed. I'm sorry you think I'm trying to twist scripture to fit my beliefs, but it is a wild stretch of the imagination to make those passages mean a man has departed from true faith in Christ. He is dealing with the spirit of antichrist that is and will continue to be prevalent in the local church. To make that passage refer to personal faith is to do great violence to the text.

I do agree that we should read the bible for what it says, but not every passage can be simply cast out in the open and taken at face value. You must compare scripture with scripture to fully understand it. I trust in the living Christ, he is my assurance of eternal life, I have no motives to be deceptive or cling to a man made doctrine, but I do seek to rightly handle scripture, and place it in it's proper divisions. I know a man who places his trust in Christ can never perish, I know salvation is the gift of God, so I must clarify any seemingly discrepancy in scripture with clear scripture. You can cling to pet scriptures to try and prove that one can lose salvation while I will believe God with full assurance, and thank him daily for his unspeakable gift.

So do you still cling to your idea that "the faith" in Scripture does not mean personal saving faith as you have ignored my counterpoint. If so, can you cite any scriptures that would support your belief? I have difficulty following your logic but if I may summarize what I think you're saying it would go something like this - Since a true believer can never fall away, even following false doctrine will never cause a believer to be lost. You conveniently overlook the fact of how Paul himself characterizes what you would describe as simply men teaching doctrines. Paul in no uncertain terms says they are DOCTRINES OF DEMONS. So, according to your belief a believer can follow doctrines of demons and yet still be saved. Isn't that sheer hypocrisy? You continue to ignore the plain warnings of Scripture in order to preserve your personal beliefs. Don't ignore what Paul says about the importance between maintaining doctrine and saving faith: "Watch your life and doctrine closely (a command). Persevere in them, because IF YOU DO (conditional clause), you WILL (not already have) save both yourself and your hearers" 1 Tim 4:16. That is what you call allowing scripture to speak for itself. Edited March 24, 2013 by Elhanan

[saved34]

So do you still cling to your idea that "the faith" in Scripture does not mean personal saving faith as you have ignored my counterpoint. If so, can you cite any scriptures that would support your belief?

I said, "the faith" in the verse you cited was not talking about a person leaving personal saving faith in Christ, but men leaving the doctrines of the faith. I said this because of the context of the entire chapter and not just the verse itself. If you look at the entire passage and not just isolate the scripture you will see that it interprets itself.

1Ti 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

1Ti 4:2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

1Ti 4:3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

Now look closely at what he says in verse 6

1Ti 4:6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

"Nourished on the TRUTHS OF THE FAITH". Context is key. This is his subject, not faith as in faith in Christ. In other words, it is not teaching that a man can be genuinely saved and then wlak away from faith in Christ. Scripture is clear that Apostates have "no root", they "went out from us because they were not of us", etc. Scripture is full of passages that deal with a person falling away from a profession of faith, I'm telling you, these scriptures in 1Tim are dealing with falling away from pure doctrines of the faith.

Since a true believer can never fall away, even following false doctrine will never cause a believer to be lost.

That is not what I am saying. I apologize if I am not expressing myself through this medium in a clear enough manner. Keep in mind that Paul made a definite distinction between the men who depart from the faith, and his young charge Timothy who was to promote pure doctrine and avoid these false teachers and their errors like the plague.

1Ti 4:7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly.

Paul in no uncertain terms says they are DOCTRINES OF DEMONS. So, according to your belief a believer can follow doctrines of demons and yet still be saved. Isn't that sheer hypocrisy?

Can you quote me where I said a man can follow doctrines of demons and still be saved? You are confusing my attempt to explain to you what "departing from the faith" means in this instance, to me trying to use this to back up my stance on OSAS. I was just trying to show you that it did not mean what you were trying to force the text to mean.

Watch your life and doctrine closely (a command). Persevere in them, because IF YOU DO (conditional clause), you WILL (not already have) save both yourself and your hearers" 1 Tim 4:16. That is what you call allowing scripture to speak for itself.

​Again, context is key. are you prepared to say that scripture never uses "saved" in the present tense? Are you attempting to use this verse to say one cannot say he is saved right now, right this minute? I would hope not. We are saved right now, in Christ seated at the right hand of God. Faith embraces this, and counts it true right now, not some time down the road. One day we shall be saved or redeemed when Christ comes back for us, but faith in Christ is an anchor to the believing man or woman, and counts it just as sure as if he or she is in heaven already. The man of God must watch his doctrine and lifestyle. If he is preaching error, he cannot save anyone, and he himself will be made out to be a false teacher.

[asper]

Elhanan, these men in question were still "teaching doctrines". They were not outwardly denying Christ, but teaching things contrary to the Christian faith such as forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats. In other instances they were teaching that the resurrection had already passed. I'm sorry you think I'm trying to twist scripture to fit my beliefs, but it is a wild stretch of the imagination to make those passages mean a man has departed from true faith in Christ. He is dealing with the spirit of antichrist that is and will continue to be prevalent in the local church. To make that passage refer to personal faith is to do great violence to the text.

I do agree that we should read the bible for what it says, but not every passage can be simply cast out in the open and taken at face value. You must compare scripture with scripture to fully understand it. I trust in the living Christ, he is my assurance of eternal life, I have no motives to be deceptive or cling to a man made doctrine, but I do seek to rightly handle scripture, and place it in it's proper divisions. I know a man who places his trust in Christ can never perish, I know salvation is the gift of God, so I must clarify any seemingly discrepancy in scripture with clear scripture. You can cling to pet scriptures to try and prove that one can lose salvation while I will believe God with full assurance, and thank him daily for his unspeakable gift.

So do you still cling to your idea that "the faith" in Scripture does not mean personal saving faith as you have ignored my counterpoint. If so, can you cite any scriptures that would support your belief? I have difficulty following your logic but if I may summarize what I think you're saying it would go something like this - Since a true believer can never fall away, even following false doctrine will never cause a believer to be lost. You conveniently overlook the fact of how Paul himself characterizes what you would describe as simply men teaching doctrines. Paul in no uncertain terms says they are DOCTRINES OF DEMONS. So, according to your belief a believer can follow doctrines of demons and yet still be saved. Isn't that sheer hypocrisy? You continue to ignore the plain warnings of Scripture in order to preserve your personal beliefs. Don't ignore what Paul says about the importance between maintaining doctrine and saving faith: "Watch your life and doctrine closely (a command). Persevere in them, because IF YOU DO (conditional clause), you WILL (not already have) save both yourself and your hearers" 1 Tim 4:16. That is what you call allowing scripture to speak for itself.

It is unbelievable how some here can ignore verses that were presented on how born again believers are kept and keep themselves and then cling on some verses which expose or they think exposes believers losing their salvation.

Think about this,

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 ¶ I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

4100. πιστευω pisteuo pist-yoo’-o; from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well-being to Christ): —

repeating, there is a difference between those that truly believe and those who only acknowledge the facts.

Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Not everyone that was saved out of Egypt was spiritually saved. They all were physically saved but were they spiritually saved?

The same goes for the church hence the example in Jude.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Yes we who are spiritually saved continue unto the end, those who join the church and fall away are not.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Really, is it possible to give someone understanding?

Here is an example of self righteousness.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

So you can keep the law and see how well you obtain righteousness.

Edited March 24, 2013 by asper

[His_disciple3]

Tit 3:5-6 KJV

(5)

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(6)

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;