Salvation

[Guest man]

That lone verse proves nothing. Here is why. We were all born into this world in sin, as a result of Adam's transgression. That means that there is no person on the face of the earth that could be saved by the works of the law, because one spot would keep us out of heaven. For that reason, none of us can boast that we were saved by our own works, even if we reject eternal security, or were able to keep every one of God's laws in absolute perfection. I still contend that wilful transgressions after getting saved are not automatically under the blood covering, and you won't get into heaven unless you confess them. In that way, if a Christian decides to rob a bank, everything he did before the bank robbery was under the blood, but when he commits that act of theft, he is lost. That sin is not under the blood, and if he were to die before confessing it, he would go to hell. The verse that was posted in no wise proves this wrong.

That shouldn't even be an issue.

Hebrews 10

²⁶ For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Lots wife is a perfect example of what happens when we disobey God.

Bro, that is not talking about sinning as in adultery, stealing, fornication, etc, it is talking about receiving the knowledge that Christ is the way, the only way to God and salvation, yet turning to other means of trying to appease God. In this instance many of the Hebrews were turning back to animal sacrifices. They had made a profession of Christianity but now because of heavy persecution were drawing back and in so doing, renouncing Christ and the covenant of grace.

As far as Lots wife being an example, we will be turned to pillars of salt? X^P In all seriousness, I understand your point on that, but please understand what the passage in Hebrews 10 is really dealing with.

Sin is sin.

[Guest Butero]

Read what the Greek says. Jesus is speaking to believers. Believers are the only ones who have their name written in the Book of Life.

lol I can't read greek, and that is just your own private interpretation. You cannot believe that Christ was ONLY addressing believers unless you are willing to say that everyone in the local assembly is a saved man or woman. He was addressing REAL churches first and foremost.You cannot use those passages to try and "cancel" clear scripture.

He most definately was addressing real believers, and OneLight is correct in saying only true born again believers have their name written in the book of life. This is not debatable. He was addressing a Christian assembly,not unbelievers. Had be been addressing unbelievers, he would have been giving them the message of salvation. I don't need to know Greek to see that.

I guess if you assume at least one of these things then your interpretation can work,

One is that when you are born again then you are written in the book of life. The problem is that this was done from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The second assumption is that God has predestinated some to eternal death. The problem with that are these verses.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Psalms 81:15 The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

The third assumption is that everyone in the church is real believers.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Fourth assumption is that there is no distinction between being written in the book of life and being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Psalms 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

22 ¶ Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.

23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.

25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.

26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Scribes and Pharisees and Roman soldiers crucified The Lord. At what time were they in the book of life?

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Side note- predestination is true but double predestination is not.

First of all, I believe what you call "double predestination" is true, therefore nothing you said works. The only thing I have reason to address is whether everyone in those churches had been saved? They didn't have to be. The messages were to people that had been saved. You can tell that by what was said. It wasn't a message of salvation, but repentance for someone who had fallen. They are being called to return to a previous state.

[saved34]

That lone verse proves nothing. Here is why. We were all born into this world in sin, as a result of Adam's transgression. That means that there is no person on the face of the earth that could be saved by the works of the law, because one spot would keep us out of heaven. For that reason, none of us can boast that we were saved by our own works, even if we reject eternal security, or were able to keep every one of God's laws in absolute perfection. I still contend that wilful transgressions after getting saved are not automatically under the blood covering, and you won't get into heaven unless you confess them. In that way, if a Christian decides to rob a bank, everything he did before the bank robbery was under the blood, but when he commits that act of theft, he is lost. That sin is not under the blood, and if he were to die before confessing it, he would go to hell. The verse that was posted in no wise proves this wrong.

That shouldn't even be an issue.

Hebrews 10

²⁶ For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Lots wife is a perfect example of what happens when we disobey God.

Bro, that is not talking about sinning as in adultery, stealing, fornication, etc, it is talking about receiving the knowledge that Christ is the way, the only way to God and salvation, yet turning to other means of trying to appease God. In this instance many of the Hebrews were turning back to animal sacrifices. They had made a profession of Christianity but now because of heavy persecution were drawing back and in so doing, renouncing Christ and the covenant of grace.

As far as Lots wife being an example, we will be turned to pillars of salt? X^P In all seriousness, I understand your point on that, but please understand what the passage in Hebrews 10 is really dealing with.

Sin is sin.

I agree, but the passage you cited has absolutely nothing to do with what you were trying to make it say. It is dealing with the ONLY sin that damns the soul, unbelief.

[Guest Butero]

That lone verse proves nothing. Here is why. We were all born into this world in sin, as a result of Adam's transgression. That means that there is no person on the face of the earth that could be saved by the works of the law, because one spot would keep us out of heaven. For that reason, none of us can boast that we were saved by our own works, even if we reject eternal security, or were able to keep every one of God's laws in absolute perfection. I still contend that wilful transgressions after getting saved are not automatically under the blood covering, and you won't get into heaven unless you confess them. In that way, if a Christian decides to rob a bank, everything he did before the bank robbery was under the blood, but when he commits that act of theft, he is lost. That sin is not under the blood, and if he were to die before confessing it, he would go to hell. The verse that was posted in no wise proves this wrong.

That shouldn't even be an issue.

Hebrews 10

²⁶ For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Lots wife is a perfect example of what happens when we disobey God.

Bro, that is not talking about sinning as in adultery, stealing, fornication, etc, it is talking about receiving the knowledge that Christ is the way, the only way to God and salvation, yet turning to other means of trying to appease God. In this instance many of the Hebrews were turning back to animal sacrifices. They had made a profession of Christianity but now because of heavy persecution were drawing back and in so doing, renouncing Christ and the covenant of grace.

As far as Lots wife being an example, we will be turned to pillars of salt? X^P In all seriousness, I understand your point on that, but please understand what the passage in Hebrews 10 is really dealing with.

Sin is sin.

If eternal security is correct, and these are people that were once saved but were now going back to animal sacrifice as a result of persecution, shouldn't they still be saved? Where would animal sacrifice be an unpardonable sin? If you can't draw back after being saved, and sacrfice a bull or goat, then you don't have unconditional eternal security. That response is an admission one can lose their salvation.

[saved34]

First of all, I believe what you call "double predestination" is true, therefore nothing you said works. The only thing I have reason to address is whether everyone in those churches had been saved? They didn't have to be. The messages were to people that had been saved. You can tell that by what was said. It wasn't a message of salvation, but repentance for someone who had fallen. They are being called to return to a previous state.

So wait a minute, if your interpretation of "double predestination" is true, how can one be lost if he is predestined (God predetermining him) to be saved? You have acknowledged that those who are so called "predestined to hell" are guaranteed to go there. How do you rectify this theology with your beliefs of the willful sin? What if the predestined one does not repent in time(your beliefs, not mine) and does not get to confess and repent before he or she dies? Does this unelect them? I'm confused on some of the positions you guys are preaching.

[gdemoss]

Tit 3:5-6 KJV

(5)Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(6)Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Most excellent points

We do not get credit.

• It is not for anything we have done as 'who can bring him down from above?'. It isn't because we were righteous that he chose to send Jesus Christ but because God so loved the world as God is love.
  
  He gets all the credit for all that salvation is truly comprised of which can be seen in those verses.
  • It took Gods mercy to save us. He had to choose to give us what we did not deserve and that is salvation.
    
  • By the washing of regeneration which is equally translated the baptism of the new birth which is part of salvation.
    
  • And the renewing of the Holy Ghost (Spirit) which is the sanctification process by which our minds are refreshed and made new again, which is also part of salvation.
    

  Salvation is a process not an event when considered as a whole. Each part individually can be spoken of on its own and after it has occurred one can use the term 'saved' to describe it in a past tense. For example we were 'saved' by the blood when we received the atonement for our sin but yet we are saved by his life still yet through his intercession for us all the while he is saving us through the process of sanctification and finally our Salvation, as a whole, will be revealed at his coming.

  Praise God for all his works of salvation!

  That lone verse proves nothing. Here is why. We were all born into this world in sin, as a result of Adam's transgression. That means that there is no person on the face of the earth that could be saved by the works of the law, because one spot would keep us out of heaven. For that reason, none of us can boast that we were saved by our own works, even if we reject eternal security, or were able to keep every one of God's laws in absolute perfection. I still contend that wilful transgressions after getting saved are not automatically under the blood covering, and you won't get into heaven unless you confess them. In that way, if a Christian decides to rob a bank, everything he did before the bank robbery was under the blood, but when he commits that act of theft, he is lost. That sin is not under the blood, and if he were to die before confessing it, he would go to hell. The verse that was posted in no wise proves this wrong.

  Yeah but you also think that we are all just a bunch of robots who cannot do anything except that which we were made to do. I give no weight to that which you believe as your foundation is wrought with error.

[ibldcars4u]

Deception can go either way. Christians try to avoid sin, and as time passes and one becomes closer to being like Christ, the more one learns how to. But the thought of loosing my salvation is unthinkable to me. Being out of GODs grace is one thing, out of His mercy is another.

edit: what I meant to say was out of GODs blessings, not grace. OOPS!

Don't go around committing wilful sins, and if you do mess up confess your sins. If you do those things, you won't have to worry about losing your salvation.

I agree with you, but I believe that IF you are truely saved, you don't have to worry at all.

What are you planning on doing? Are you wanting to know if you rob a bank you would still be saved? Are you wanting to know if you commit adultery, you would still be saved? What are you planning on doing that you would even have need to fear regardless? If you don't commit wilful sin after getting saved, you will never fall. At the same time, if you do rob a bank, and die in a shoot out, I don't care if you were once saved, you will wind up in hell. If you do die while in the act of adultery, I don't care if you were once saved, you will wind up in hell. Jesus didn't die to give us peace that if we commit sinful acts, all is well with our soul. I can understand someone wishing to believe that, but it is not true.

Jesus died to pay the price for all my sins, past, present and future. Someone said that in the OT the question was "Will you obey Me?" Those who did became the Remnant. In the NT, the question is "Do you believe in Me?" Those who do become the Church.

The original atonement washed away all sins past. They do not automatically wash away all wilful sins you commit in the future. That is why I believe that if a Christian commits suicide, they will wind up in hell. They have no chance to repent. The same thing would apply to a Christian who is defiled in the bed of fornication, or dies robbing a bank. Those sins create new spot on their garment, and they are lost. You must confess those sins to get in right standing again, and his blood is sufficient to wash them away without him dying again on the cross.

In my opinion I do beleive you can fall away after salvation and you will not be saved. If someone goes on a killing spree for years and the thought of God never comes back into their mind, I don't see how they can be saved. It is not just a free for all to do whatever you want after salvation. Your supposed to live as best you can to his word while here on earth. One thing to remember is there is only 1 judge,and only he knows what can go through someones mind/heart/soul right before they die. Who knows maybe they truley repent and ask for forgiveness 2 min's before death. He will know if its true or not,you can't con God or get anything over on him. Just glad God is the judge

[saved34]

If eternal security is correct, and these are people that were once saved but were now going back to animal sacrifice as a result of persecution, shouldn't they still be saved? Where would animal sacrifice be an unpardonable sin? If you can't draw back after being saved, and sacrfice a bull or goat, then you don't have unconditional eternal security. That response is an admission one can lose their salvation.

One is only secure in Christ. Paul addressed the very question you just posed and I know I have quoted this same scripture at least 30 times lol. Paul identified the men and women who were drawing back as not of those who remained.

Heb 6:9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case--the things that have to do with salvation.

Heb 10:38 And, "But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back."

Heb 10:39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

OSAS is still in tact, and will remain so because it is based on a living trust in Christ Jesus. He promised us life and he cannot lie, we trust this and hope until the end for him to finally reveal himself to us. That is our hope and joy.

[Guest man]

That lone verse proves nothing. Here is why. We were all born into this world in sin, as a result of Adam's transgression. That means that there is no person on the face of the earth that could be saved by the works of the law, because one spot would keep us out of heaven. For that reason, none of us can boast that we were saved by our own works, even if we reject eternal security, or were able to keep every one of God's laws in absolute perfection. I still contend that wilful transgressions after getting saved are not automatically under the blood covering, and you won't get into heaven unless you confess them. In that way, if a Christian decides to rob a bank, everything he did before the bank robbery was under the blood, but when he commits that act of theft, he is lost. That sin is not under the blood, and if he were to die before confessing it, he would go to hell. The verse that was posted in no wise proves this wrong.

That shouldn't even be an issue.

Hebrews 10

²⁶ For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Lots wife is a perfect example of what happens when we disobey God.

Bro, that is not talking about sinning as in adultery, stealing, fornication, etc, it is talking about receiving the knowledge that Christ is the way, the only way to God and salvation, yet turning to other means of trying to appease God. In this instance many of the Hebrews were turning back to animal sacrifices. They had made a profession of Christianity but now because of heavy persecution were drawing back and in so doing, renouncing Christ and the covenant of grace.

As far as Lots wife being an example, we will be turned to pillars of salt? X^P In all seriousness, I understand your point on that, but please understand what the passage in Hebrews 10 is really dealing with.

Sin is sin.

If eternal security is correct, and these are people that were once saved but were now going back to animal sacrifice as a result of persecution, shouldn't they still be saved? Where would animal sacrifice be an unpardonable sin? If you can't draw back after being saved, and sacrfice a bull or goat, then you don't have unconditional eternal security. That response is an admission one can lose their salvation.

True.

[OneLight]

Take a closer look at the verses you quoted. If I were to follow what you are saying as truth, then I could earn my salvation by the works I do. This is not scriptural. Since one cannot work their way to salvation, they are already saved who have to ensure that what they do is of Him.

Onelight

So one cannot work their way to salvation, but they can not work their way out of it? I'm a bit confused on your position now. There is a disconnect somewhere, while you say one cannot earn salvation, there is some stipulation in your own mind and theology that says a man can lose the redemption that Christ has secured for the believing sinner. It cannot be both ways, either you believe it is all of grace, or you believe there is some measure of good works that effectively keeps one saved. Never mind the fact that a faith that does not produce works is not a true faith at all, which means that person was never saved, but I'm a bit confused on your position.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

The error in your understanding what I am saying comes when you choose to use the word "loose". To loose something means it was done by accident, unintentional, not by choice. No, nobody can loose their salvation, but they can choose to walk away for Christ through their willing refusal of obedience. I am positive that the Holy Spirit is working hard in someone who refuses to obey Him, so it is not by accident, unintentional or not by choice. This has nothing to do with how one is saved, but how one can choose to turn from the truth.