Salvation

[back2thebible]

I always go to the end of the story to see how it pans out, we see in Revelations Jesus addressing the churches, and reinerating the contract of obedience, and overcoming the sin's that lead to eternal death, look how many times He says "he who overcomes"

which would also point out a failure to overcome has a reward also

at the end of the day, if one were to be right or wrong on this debate which side would be the safer bet, live like the devil and hope for salvation, or die to yourself and follow in obedience

[Guest man]

Yes "lost" can have more than one meaning but the weakness of your argument is that when the word lost is employed in teaching spiritual truth, it usually always means not having eternal life or unsaved. Why does God go to great lengths to save the prodigal, sheep or coin? Simply because they were physically lost - hardly. It is because they are spiritually lost. In common church vernacular, we always refer to the lost as unsaved people so it is quite disingenuous to change one's interpretation to physically lost when it comes to reading these parables. Even if you define lost in the sense of loss or relationship with the father or God, isn't that the same as not having eternal life? After all, eternal life is being in the presence of God and enjoying him. When one is lost or separated from God by definition - one has no eternal life. That's why it is important for the branches to abide in the vine.

Referring to them as "physically" lost keeps their OSAS doctrine intact.

[asper]

Elhanan posted,

I assume you are making a comparison between Paul's reference to being alive at one time apart from the law and those examples of peoples who do not distinguish the sin in their lives because they do not have or understand the law by which they are judged and held accountable, i.e., children. I have no problem with that as it is a legitimate comparison as Paul was once a child. However if you are attempting to compare those examples with the prodigal being alive, you seem to have missed the point. The prodigal was aware of his sin and the need to repent and ask forgiveness. His older brother accuses his prodigal brother of transgressing the commandment of their father and wasting his inheritance on harlots. Thus to claim that the prodigal was alive in the sense of not yet having the law is quite a stretch to say the least. Like his older brother the prodigal was well aware of the law. Secondly, your claim of my quoting Rom 8:13 without context is without merit. Many OSAS advocates are very fond of quoting Rom 8:1 without quoting the whole verse: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." Admittedly not all Bible translations include this latter clause depending on the manuscript translated from. Nonetheless, it does not matter since Paul essentially repeats the same thing later in Rom 8:4 - "that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Lastly, you ask if I really think everyone in the church is truly saved. Your question is actually a false dilemma but since you ask my answer is "no" - some were not true converts to begin with. In asking your question you believe that scripture passages that appear to say that a believer can lose their eternal security only refer to those who were not truly saved to begin - in other words false converts. In order to do so, you will have to contend with the plain warning contained in 1 Tim 3:6: "He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil."

my response,

You are completely wrong in your assessment.

You missed the context of the parable.

Luke 15:1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.

10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

11 ¶ And he said, A certain man had two sons:

Publican and sinners- younger son.

Pharisees and scribes- elder son.

The sons are representations of those who were born Israelites according to the flesh.

So in what way were they sons?

By physical birth.

When were they alive?

The only time I could see is as Paul said.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So no, I am not wrong.

Continuing on,

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is no word “if” in either of these verses.

There is no word “when” in either of these verses.

So how do you think that it should be a conditional statement?

In answer your last statement.

Hebrews 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

so…………..

Edited March 21, 2013 by asper

[His_disciple3]

Yes "lost" can have more than one meaning but the weakness of your argument is that when the word lost is employed in teaching spiritual truth, it usually always means not having eternal life or unsaved. Why does God go to great lengths to save the prodigal, sheep or coin? Simply because they were physically lost - hardly. It is because they are spiritually lost. In common church vernacular, we always refer to the lost as unsaved people so it is quite disingenuous to change one's interpretation to physically lost when it comes to reading these parables. Even if you define lost in the sense of loss or relationship with the father or God, isn't that the same as not having eternal life? After all, eternal life is being in the presence of God and enjoying him. When one is lost or separated from God by definition - one has no eternal life. That's why it is important for the branches to abide in the vine.

but you again overlook the message of the parable the Father and son relationship was intact, it was never broken as your interpretation would lead one to believe, thus lost and dead can't mean what you would want them to say,

[saved34]

I always go to the end of the story to see how it pans out, we see in Revelations Jesus addressing the churches, and reinerating the contract of obedience, and overcoming the sin's that lead to eternal death, look how many times He says "he who overcomes"

which would also point out a failure to overcome has a reward also

at the end of the day, if one were to be right or wrong on this debate which side would be the safer bet, live like the devil and hope for salvation, or die to yourself and follow in obedience

"A contract of obedience"? So now Eternal life is no longer a free gift, it is a contract of obedience? Or is it partially a contract and partially a gift? I've seen clear scripture that points to salvation as absolutely free on the merits of Christ alone, but I have never read where it is a contract between you and God. Last I heard we were dead and without strength when God saved us.

2Ti 1:9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Rom 3:24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Either salvation is completely free and by grace, or as you say, we are contractually obligated to perform good works in order to survive. Scripture rejects that notion.

Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.

Rom 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

We do perform good works, but they spring from the new life in us that came with our salvation. Works are vitally important in the believers life, but dear friend, for you to suggest that those of us who believe in the Eternal security of Christ adhere to living like devils is a bit much.

As far as our Lord saying "He who overcomes", that is not a matter or question of if, it is a matter of fact. Believers believe to the end. We do not draw back or give up. Scripture says we overcome the world. There is no question on this.

1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

When you read scripture like, "he that endures to the end shall be saved" or "He who over comes" it is not a statement of prerequisite, but a statement of fact. True faith endures, true believers believe.

Heb 10:39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

1Pe 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Joh 5:24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

We have a sure anchor in the heavens, our Lord Jesus Christ. He is our eternal security. We trust in him to deliver us safely home. That is the true teaching of OSAS. Any who fall away are not of us, they are imposters who were exposed. They had no root in them and fell away when times got tough. Where is the sin in a man or woman trusting and hoping completely on the mercy of Christ? Where is the sin in believing the Lord when he said he gives me eternal life and I shall never perish? That is showing trust and faith in God. He wants us to have full assurance. Anything less is doubting God and trusting in your own performance.

[asper]

I always go to the end of the story to see how it pans out, we see in Revelations Jesus addressing the churches, and reinerating the contract of obedience, and overcoming the sin's that lead to eternal death, look how many times He says "he who overcomes"

which would also point out a failure to overcome has a reward also

at the end of the day, if one were to be right or wrong on this debate which side would be the safer bet, live like the devil and hope for salvation, or die to yourself and follow in obedience

"A contract of obedience"? So now Eternal life is no longer a free gift, it is a contract of obedience? Or is it partially a contract and partially a gift? I've seen clear scripture that points to salvation as absolutely free on the merits of Christ alone, but I have never read where it is a contract between you and God. Last I heard we were dead and without strength when God saved us.

2Ti 1:9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Rom 3:24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Either salvation is completely free and by grace, or as you say, we are contractually obligated to perform good works in order to survive. Scripture rejects that notion.

Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.

Rom 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

We do perform good works, but they spring from the new life in us that came with our salvation. Works are vitally important in the believers life, but dear friend, for you to suggest that those of us who believe in the Eternal security of Christ adhere to living like devils is a bit much.

As far as our Lord saying "He who overcomes", that is not a matter or question of if, it is a matter of fact. Believers believe to the end. We do not draw back or give up. Scripture says we overcome the world. There is no question on this.

1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

When you read scripture like, "he that endures to the end shall be saved" or "He who over comes" it is not a statement of prerequisite, but a statement of fact. True faith endures, true believers believe.

Heb 10:39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

1Pe 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Joh 5:24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

We have a sure anchor in the heavens, our Lord Jesus Christ. He is our eternal security. We trust in him to deliver us safely home. That is the true teaching of OSAS. Any who fall away are not of us, they are imposters who were exposed. They had no root in them and fell away when times got tough. Where is the sin in a man or woman trusting and hoping completely on the mercy of Christ? Where is the sin in believing the Lord when he said he gives me eternal life and I shall never perish? That is showing trust and faith in God. He wants us to have full assurance. Anything less is doubting God and trusting in your own performance.

great post...God bless.

[His_disciple3]

I always go to the end of the story to see how it pans out, we see in Revelations Jesus addressing the churches, and reinerating the contract of obedience, and overcoming the sin's that lead to eternal death, look how many times He says "he who overcomes"

which would also point out a failure to overcome has a reward also

at the end of the day, if one were to be right or wrong on this debate which side would be the safer bet, live like the devil and hope for salvation, or die to yourself and follow in obedience

but who does the scriptures say are the ones that overcome??????? "he who over comes" are those that trust Christ!!!!!!!

1Jn 5:5 KJV

(5)

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

and oh yeah I don't think you really went to the end of the story!!!!!

Rev 22:17 KJV

(17)

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

freely it is a gift nothing you can work for but a gift of God !!!!!

Edited March 20, 2013 by His_disciple3

[Elhanan]

In response to the point about eternal life as a free gift versus a "contract of obedience." The logical fallacy employed by this argument is that the choice is either one or the other, known as a false choice or false dichotomy. Is it not possible for both to be true? While God's offer of salvation is indeed a free gift bought by the blood of Christ, it is not free in the sense that it will cost you nothing. It will in fact cost you your life. When Jesus called his first disciples, did he say believe me or FOLLOW ME? The New Covenant by definition is a contract between God and the believer. God will always fulfill his obligation to the terms of the covenant but to say that the believer has no part to follow or obey in the covenant is absolutely false. If you disagree, it always pays to read the fine print in the "contract:" "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him (Heb 5:9).

[Elhanan]

since we are repeating posts i might as well join in with the answer i gave to your post,

Your conclusion is not very likely,

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

When was Paul alive? When did the commandment come?

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

2 Samuel 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

And about the verse in Romans you quoted without any context,

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 ¶ Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Do you really think everyone in the church is truly saved?

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Basically

if it walks like a hog, and talks like a hog, it is probably a hog.

if it walks like a dog, and talks like a dog, it is probably a dog.

I assume you are making a comparison between Paul's reference to being alive at one time apart from the law and those examples of peoples who do not distinguish the sin in their lives because they do not have or understand the law by which they are judged and held accountable, i.e., children. I have no problem with that as it is a legitimate comparison as Paul was once a child. However if you are attempting to compare those examples with the prodigal being alive, you seem to have missed the point. The prodigal was aware of his sin and the need to repent and ask forgiveness. His older brother accuses his prodigal brother of transgressing the commandment of their father and wasting his inheritance on harlots. Thus to claim that the prodigal was alive in the sense of not yet having the law is quite a stretch to say the least. Like his older brother the prodigal was well aware of the law. Secondly, your claim of my quoting Rom 8:13 without context is without merit. Many OSAS advocates are very fond of quoting Rom 8:1 without quoting the whole verse: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." Admittedly not all Bible translations include this latter clause depending on the manuscript translated from. Nonetheless, it does not matter since Paul essentially repeats the same thing later in Rom 8:4 - "that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Lastly, you ask if I really think everyone in the church is truly saved. Your question is actually a false dilemma but since you ask my answer is "no" - some were not true converts to begin with. In asking your question you believe that scripture passages that appear to say that a believer can lose their eternal security only refer to those who were not truly saved to begin - in other words false converts. In order to do so, you will have to contend with the plain warning contained in 1 Tim 3:6: "He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil."

You are completely wrong in your assessment.

You missed the context of the parable.

Luke 15:1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.

10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

11 ¶ And he said, A certain man had two sons:

Publican and sinners- younger son.

Pharisees and scribes- elder son.

The sons are representations of those who were born Israelites according to the flesh.

So in what way were they sons?

By physical birth.

When were they alive?

The only time I could see is as Paul said.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So no, I am not wrong.

Continuing on,

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is no word “if” in either of these verses.

There is no word “when” in either of these verses.

So how do you think that it should be a conditional statement?

In answer your last statement.

Hebrews 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

so…………..

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I have no idea what you're talking about when you refer to the publican and sinners as being like the younger son and the Pharisees and scribes representing the older son. They are not even the characters in Jesus' parables; they are his audience to whom he was speaking so to include them in forming your personal interpretation of the parable is invalid to say the least. It is common knowledge that the purpose of Jesus telling parables is that those like the publicans and sinners would have eyes to see and ears to hear spiritual truth. Others like the Pharisees and scribes would remain blind and deaf to spiritual truth because of the hardness of their hearts. My quotes of Romans are not conditional statements to begin with but are sentences containing two clauses, the second clause further defining the subject of the first clause so your objection is irrelevant I don't understand your third point. I simply referred you to 1 Tim 3:6 where it plainly states that a convert will face the same condemnation as the devil if he becomes a prideful person. It plainly indicates that a believer can lose his salvation which directly contradicts OSAS teaching. Simply put, those who believe in OSAS fall prey to the same lie that the serpent told Eve in the Garden: "You shall not surely die."

[gdemoss]

Ye Must Be Born Again.

Romans 5, when taken as a whole and not simply partitioned out like modern law describes two distinct opposite ends of the spectrum. Life and death. In Adam all die. Adam had a son in his own likeness and image after the fall. His son, though physically alive, was born dead. He was dead in trespass and sin. Sin had entered into the world and death by sin. Man was dead unto God and alive unto sin with sin being his master. Jesus Christ, the true temple of God, changed all that by sacrificing his own body and giving atonement with his blood for the sin of mankind. The free gift is eternal life through the eternal Spirit of God which is freely given unto all of us and is evidenced by the sinners ability to have victory over sin in their life where they once were powerless but to serve sin.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

We shall be saved by his life. This is two fold. One he sits at the right hand of the father interceding for us. Two he indwells us through the eternal Spirit quickening our mortal flesh and releasing us from the power of sin through faith.

Humans are servants and must have a god. Their god dictates their actions through commands given in the heart. Humans have the ability to disobey these commands and that ability is what we understand to be choice. Through the knowledge of Jesus Christ, we can truly understand what righteousness is and choose to follow the dictates of the Holy Spirit, rebelling against sin that still dwells in our mortal flesh. We mortify the deeds of the body. The heart must become circumcised unto God, obeying only God through Christ the eternal Spirit indwelling us. For this cause, Paul wrote that we are to prove our own selves and test to see if Jesus Christ is actually in us by our actions. He understood that faith without works is dead. Christ must dwell in our hearts by faith. We must receive the free gift of life through the eternal Spirit. God the Father gives the Spirit to them that ask, as it is written.

Salvation: You must be saved from something in order to be saved.

To have eternal salvation, one must be saved from eternal death. To be saved from eternal death one must have the eternal Spirit giving them life which is evidenced in the fruit of the Spirit and the works that a natural outpouring of the divine nature now possessed by the one who is saved.

Ye Must Be Born Again - We were dead in trespass and sin but can be quickened, made alive, through the eternal Spirit. Following the new birth we must desire the milk of the word and grow in his grace until we reach the fullness of the maturity that is in Christ Jesus being as he is in this world.

We can discuss doctrine all day long until the cows come home but if we are simply having a carnal discussion rooted in human reason without having had the true born again experience, then we are simply dead in trespass and sin, not having truly received Christ Jesus into us as Lord, therefore having him as Savior.