Salvation

[asper]

'Elhanan' posted

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I have no idea what you're talking about when you refer to the publican and sinners as being like the younger son and the Pharisees and scribes representing the older son. They are not even the characters in Jesus' parables; they are his audience to whom he was speaking so to include them in forming your personal interpretation of the parable is invalid to say the least. It is common knowledge that the purpose of Jesus telling parables is that those like the publicans and sinners would have eyes to see and ears to hear spiritual truth. Others like the Pharisees and scribes would remain blind and deaf to spiritual truth because of the hardness of their hearts. My quotes of Romans are not conditional statements to begin with but are sentences containing two clauses, the second clause further defining the subject of the first clause so your objection is irrelevant I don't understand your third point. I simply referred you to 1 Tim 3:6 where it plainly states that a convert will face the same condemnation as the devil if he becomes a prideful person. It plainly indicates that a believer can lose his salvation which directly contradicts OSAS teaching. Simply put, those who believe in OSAS fall prey to the same lie that the serpent told Eve in the Garden: "You shall not surely die."

my response,

Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Matthew 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Luke 5:30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?

31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Did he call the scribes and Pharisees righteous?

Luke 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?

41 But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.

42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

43 Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets.

44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.

They thought that they were righteous.

Luke 15:27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.

28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.

29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

Do you really think that the reaction of the elder son was a proper attitude or does it follow the same attitude as the scribes and Pharisees?

Do you really think that the older son did not need repentance?

Still don’t understand?

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then

they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But

ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,

if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 ¶ Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

2 Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

1 Timothy 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

And what do you think is the condemnation of the devil?

I gave you before verses about those who are born again and how they overcome and keep themselves (wouldn’t that be their walk?) but you didn’t quite get it. Or is it that you don’t want to get it?

Edited March 21, 2013 by asper

[Elhanan]

you are correct - assurance is only given to those who overcome in their walk - no such guarantee is given to those who disobey - glad you finally got it

Edited March 21, 2013 by Elhanan

[OneLight]

OK, PLEASE! Shorten your quotes to the parts that pertain only to your reply ... don't keep quoting post that makes people have to scroll almost a whole page to read a few lines.

[His_disciple3]

In response to the point about eternal life as a free gift versus a "contract of obedience." The logical fallacy employed by this argument is that the choice is either one or the other, known as a false choice or false dichotomy. Is it not possible for both to be true? While God's offer of salvation is indeed a free gift bought by the blood of Christ, it is not free in the sense that it will cost you nothing. It will in fact cost you your life. When Jesus called his first disciples, did he say believe me or FOLLOW ME? The New Covenant by definition is a contract between God and the believer. God will always fulfill his obligation to the terms of the covenant but to say that the believer has no part to follow or obey in the covenant is absolutely false. If you disagree, it always pays to read the fine print in the "contract:" "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him (Heb 5:9).

Eph 2:8-10 KJV

(8)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

(9)

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

(10)

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Php 1:6 KJV

(6)

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

the True Vine Is something that can't do anything without, If we can do nothing without Jesus, then what we do is all credited to Jesus, we have nothing to be credited for, we work because we are saved NOT to get saved, it say work out your salvation not work for your salvation

Edited March 21, 2013 by His_disciple3

[asper]

you are correct - assurance is only given to those who overcome in their walk - no such guarantee is given to those who disobey - glad you finally got it

ok now your just playing games.

i take it you have no real response.

[Elhanan]

No - this is not a subject to play games with - I have responded to all of your posts directed to me - point for point. In turn you have not responded to hardly any of my points which of course is your prerogative but it makes for a more difficult discussion. I agree with you that overcomers are those who keep their walk but not all hold fast and persevere. Rom 3:14 states "For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.

[Elhanan]

the True Vine Is something that can't do anything without, If we can do nothing without Jesus, then what we do is all credited to Jesus, we have nothing to be credited for, we work because we are saved NOT to get saved, it say work out your salvation not work for your salvation

I agree with you that we do not work FOR our salvation, but we are commanded to work OUT our salvation with trembling and fear (Phil 2:12). The notion that believers simply have to do nothing because God has already done everything for them is not entirely correct. Before we came to Christ, it was impossible to please God because in our old man we were unable to crucify the desires of the flesh. When we came to Christ, we became new creations and the indwelling Holy Spirit made it possible for us to choose to obey God and practice righteousness.

Believers who willfully choose to remain in disobedience are never described anywhere in Scripture as born again. Assurance is only given to those who walk out their faith by practicing righteousness. "If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him." 1 Jn 2:29

[Fez]

Gen 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless (some versions have "perfect", and other "righteous")

Gen 17:2 that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly."

Today, we walk before God because of our belief and our faith, and we strive to be blameless or perfect, by, as Jesus commands, loving and obeying Him.

And He does multiply us. He multiplies our faith, love, forgiveness, knowledge and provision (which is always, as our "daily" bread, sufficient for the day)

[His_disciple3]

the True Vine Is something that can't do anything without, If we can do nothing without Jesus, then what we do is all credited to Jesus, we have nothing to be credited for, we work because we are saved NOT to get saved, it say work out your salvation not work for your salvation

I agree with you that we do not work FOR our salvation, but we are commanded to work OUT our salvation with trembling and fear (Phil 2:12). The notion that believers simply have to do nothing because God has already done everything for them is not entirely correct. Before we came to Christ, it was impossible to please God because in our old man we were unable to crucify the desires of the flesh. When we came to Christ, we became new creations and the indwelling Holy Spirit made it possible for us to choose to obey God and practice righteousness.

Believers who willfully choose to remain in disobedience are never described anywhere in Scripture as born again. Assurance is only given to those who walk out their faith by practicing righteousness. "If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him." 1 Jn 2:29

well I don't know any osas people that don't feel works are important for our walk with the Lord, "you will know them by their fruits. I think on the most part. that when one believes in osas , that means they can live any ole way, to be ok. is an assumption on the works plus faith doctrinal believers. however if you ask this osas believer if I can live any way I want to and still be saved , I would respond OH YEAH!! But If I am truely saved than the way I would want to live, would be pleasing to my Father.

[OneLight]

the True Vine Is something that can't do anything without, If we can do nothing without Jesus, then what we do is all credited to Jesus, we have nothing to be credited for, we work because we are saved NOT to get saved, it say work out your salvation not work for your salvation

I agree with you that we do not work FOR our salvation, but we are commanded to work OUT our salvation with trembling and fear (Phil 2:12). The notion that believers simply have to do nothing because God has already done everything for them is not entirely correct. Before we came to Christ, it was impossible to please God because in our old man we were unable to crucify the desires of the flesh. When we came to Christ, we became new creations and the indwelling Holy Spirit made it possible for us to choose to obey God and practice righteousness.

Believers who willfully choose to remain in disobedience are never described anywhere in Scripture as born again. Assurance is only given to those who walk out their faith by practicing righteousness. "If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him." 1 Jn 2:29

well I don't know any osas people that don't feel works are important for our walk with the Lord, "you will know them by their fruits. I think on the most part. that when one believes in osas , that means they can live any ole way, to be ok. is an assumption on the works plus faith doctrinal believers. however if you ask this osas believer if I can live any way I want to and still be saved , I would respond OH YEAH!! But If I am truely saved than the way I would want to live, would be pleasing to my Father.

It sounds like you believe in eternal security for those who follow Christ and not OSAS.