Salvation

[saved34]

the True Vine Is something that can't do anything without, If we can do nothing without Jesus, then what we do is all credited to Jesus, we have nothing to be credited for, we work because we are saved NOT to get saved, it say work out your salvation not work for your salvation

I agree with you that we do not work FOR our salvation, but we are commanded to work OUT our salvation with trembling and fear (Phil 2:12). The notion that believers simply have to do nothing because God has already done everything for them is not entirely correct. Before we came to Christ, it was impossible to please God because in our old man we were unable to crucify the desires of the flesh. When we came to Christ, we became new creations and the indwelling Holy Spirit made it possible for us to choose to obey God and practice righteousness.

Believers who willfully choose to remain in disobedience are never described anywhere in Scripture as born again. Assurance is only given to those who walk out their faith by practicing righteousness. "If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him." 1 Jn 2:29

well I don't know any osas people that don't feel works are important for our walk with the Lord, "you will know them by their fruits. I think on the most part. that when one believes in osas , that means they can live any ole way, to be ok. is an assumption on the works plus faith doctrinal believers. however if you ask this osas believer if I can live any way I want to and still be saved , I would respond OH YEAH!! But If I am truely saved than the way I would want to live, would be pleasing to my Father.

That's the funny thing about it disciple, those that think we advocate a sinful lifestyle because we believe Christ has eternally secured us are greatly mistaken. I know for a fact that salvation is absolutely free of charge, but as a Christian, I know that my works for him are important, I work as if I am working for salvation. I wont rest on the fact that he paid it all. Paul said let the same mind that Christ had, to be in us. He was God almighty, yet he humbled himself and became a servant. I know through the precious blood of Christ that I am saved to the uttermost. He took upon himself my full punishment, there is no condemnation for me at all, but I still work hard to please him. I fail many times, but my heart is in the direction of doing those things that are pleasing in his sight.

[Elhanan]

We share common ground in the sense that we acknowledge that our "works" don't save us but result from true faith in Christ. I do know of OSAS adherents though who do claim that no matter how much sin you commit - you are still saved - no matter what. Or they will stipulate that you can only lose your rewards. As another example, I think the life of Judas poses a dilemma for the OSAS crowd.

[saved34]

We share common ground in the sense that we acknowledge that our "works" don't save us but result from true faith in Christ. I do know of OSAS adherents though who do claim that no matter how much sin you commit - you are still saved - no matter what. Or they will stipulate that you can only lose your rewards. As another example, I think the life of Judas poses a dilemma for the OSAS crowd.

Well Elhanan, the good news is we are not saved on the basis of believing OSAS or believing one can lose his salvation. It is Christ himself who saves, and our faith in him. On this we have common ground. As far as Judas, he poses no dilemma at all. The Lord called him the Son of perdition, and said all of the other Apostles are clean EXCEPT Judas. He fulfilled his purpose, but he was not of the Lord's sheep.

Joh 13:10 Jesus answered, "Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you."

Joh 13:11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

Joh 13:18 "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: 'He who shared my bread has turned against me.'

Scripture has few words concerning Judas but in nearly everyone of them he is painted in a light that he was of the devil, not Christ. Christ said he was not clean, and if he declared him not clean, he has no part with him. Judas was a son of lawlessness, not a son of God through faith in Christ. Even in his remorse he only saw Christ as an Innocent man. Not the Lord of Glory as the other Apostles saw him.

[saved34]

No - this is not a subject to play games with - I have responded to all of your posts directed to me - point for point. In turn you have not responded to hardly any of my points which of course is your prerogative but it makes for a more difficult discussion. I agree with you that overcomers are those who keep their walk but not all hold fast and persevere. Rom 3:14 states "For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.

Comparing scripture with scripture, we know those who do not "hold fast the beginning confidence of faith" were not of us. This does not prove your point that anyone of Christ's sheep can perish. A pig can clean up a bit, but in the end it is still revealed to be a pig. It will go right back to the mud which is his natural habitat. A dog is still a dog. Not a sheep. Tares supposedly look nearly identical to wheat, but in the end, it is still a tare, and not wheat. Christ said plainly:

Joh 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Joh 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

A sheep of Christ will never perish. They have eternal life and they are in the hands of the great shepherd. The sheep follow the shepherd, and know his voice. He gives them eternal life as a gift, and he promises they will never perish. It's not very complicated unless we seek to make it complicated and force scriptures meant as warnings to unsaved (meaning those who do not have right faith, or a faith in the Living Christ but some other thing, or works, etc)

[Elhanan]

Comparing scripture with scripture, we know those who do not "hold fast the beginning confidence of faith" were not of us. This does not prove your point that anyone of Christ's sheep can perish. A pig can clean up a bit, but in the end it is still revealed to be a pig. It will go right back to the mud which is his natural habitat. A dog is still a dog. Not a sheep. Tares supposedly look nearly identical to wheat, but in the end, it is still a tare, and not wheat. Christ said plainly:

Joh 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Joh 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

A sheep of Christ will never perish. They have eternal life and they are in the hands of the great shepherd. The sheep follow the shepherd, and know his voice. He gives them eternal life as a gift, and he promises they will never perish. It's not very complicated unless we seek to make it complicated and force scriptures meant as warnings to unsaved (meaning those who do not have right faith, or a faith in the Living Christ but some other thing, or works, etc)

Unfortunately you totally ignore the context in order to support your belief. Eternal security believers are fond of quoting verse 28 while ignoring the preceding verse which provides for its context. Verse 27 plainly declares that his sheep are the ones who LISTEN to his voice and FOLLOW him. No such assurance of eternal life is given those who don't listen and don't follow. These 2 verses you cited do not support your claim and rather lend support for the exact opposite of what you believe. Edited March 21, 2013 by Elhanan

[OneLight]

Comparing scripture with scripture, we know those who do not "hold fast the beginning confidence of faith" were not of us. This does not prove your point that anyone of Christ's sheep can perish. A pig can clean up a bit, but in the end it is still revealed to be a pig. It will go right back to the mud which is his natural habitat. A dog is still a dog. Not a sheep. Tares supposedly look nearly identical to wheat, but in the end, it is still a tare, and not wheat. Christ said plainly:

Joh 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Joh 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

A sheep of Christ will never perish. They have eternal life and they are in the hands of the great shepherd. The sheep follow the shepherd, and know his voice. He gives them eternal life as a gift, and he promises they will never perish. It's not very complicated unless we seek to make it complicated and force scriptures meant as warnings to unsaved (meaning those who do not have right faith, or a faith in the Living Christ but some other thing, or works, etc)

Unfortunately you totally ignore the context in order to support your belief. Eternal security believers are fond of quoting verse 28 while ignoring the preceding verse which provides for its context. Verse 27 plainly declares that his sheep are the ones who LISTEN to his voice and FOLLOW him. No such assurance of eternal life is given those who don't listen and don't follow. These 2 verses you cited do not support your claim and rather lend support for the exact opposite of what you believe.

Personally, I see you both saying almost the same thing, but in a different way.

A sheep of Christ will never perish. They have eternal life and they are in the hands of the great shepherd. The sheep follow the shepherd, and know his voice. He gives them eternal life as a gift, and he promises they will never perish.

Verse 27 plainly declares that his sheep are the ones who LISTEN to his voice and FOLLOW him. No such assurance of eternal life is given those who don't listen and don't follow.

Eternal Security are for those who follow Christ period, and you both said it.

[saved34]

Comparing scripture with scripture, we know those who do not "hold fast the beginning confidence of faith" were not of us. This does not prove your point that anyone of Christ's sheep can perish. A pig can clean up a bit, but in the end it is still revealed to be a pig. It will go right back to the mud which is his natural habitat. A dog is still a dog. Not a sheep. Tares supposedly look nearly identical to wheat, but in the end, it is still a tare, and not wheat. Christ said plainly:

Joh 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Joh 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

A sheep of Christ will never perish. They have eternal life and they are in the hands of the great shepherd. The sheep follow the shepherd, and know his voice. He gives them eternal life as a gift, and he promises they will never perish. It's not very complicated unless we seek to make it complicated and force scriptures meant as warnings to unsaved (meaning those who do not have right faith, or a faith in the Living Christ but some other thing, or works, etc)

Unfortunately you totally ignore the context in order to support your belief. Eternal security believers are fond of quoting verse 28 while ignoring the preceding verse which provides for its context. Verse 27 plainly declares that his sheep are the ones who LISTEN to his voice and FOLLOW him. No such assurance of eternal life is given those who don't listen and don't follow. These 2 verses you cited do not support your claim and rather lend support for the exact opposite of what you believe.

How did I ignore it when I mentioned that very fact verbatim in my post? Further more, how does that disprove my post? Jesus said his sheep listen and follow, simple. He did not say If they listen and follow. This is a statement of fact, not of prerequisite. Are you denying that Christ said his sheep will never perish? Or are you saying in those passages he makes listening and following a conditional promise? Is that really the structure and language of those verses? I'm not following your argument. Christ simply states those sheep that are his listen and follow, and he gives them life. We know from the very same book of John how one gains life from God, through faith in Christ. In verse 25 of the same chapter I quoted Christ told the Jews they did not believe on him, so those that listened and believed (followed) are his sheep.

Joh 5:24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Joh 3:15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him."

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Unless you want to run the risk of preaching another Gospel, salvation is never said to have works as a condition. Works spring from true salvation, but works are not a condition to be saved. Salvation is to the man who does not work, but believes on Jesus (throw himself on the mercy of Christ and his holy work). This is the only way a man can be right or Just before God.

Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.

Rom 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Works have a place, but not in salvation. They come because we do have salvation or Christ dwelling in us through the Holy Spirit. Our right standing before God is not of ourselves. It is not contingent on us doing good, but on God's mercy. We do good because he has saved us, not to be saved or get saved.

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

[His_disciple3]

the True Vine Is something that can't do anything without, If we can do nothing without Jesus, then what we do is all credited to Jesus, we have nothing to be credited for, we work because we are saved NOT to get saved, it say work out your salvation not work for your salvation

I agree with you that we do not work FOR our salvation, but we are commanded to work OUT our salvation with trembling and fear (Phil 2:12). The notion that believers simply have to do nothing because God has already done everything for them is not entirely correct. Before we came to Christ, it was impossible to please God because in our old man we were unable to crucify the desires of the flesh. When we came to Christ, we became new creations and the indwelling Holy Spirit made it possible for us to choose to obey God and practice righteousness.

Believers who willfully choose to remain in disobedience are never described anywhere in Scripture as born again. Assurance is only given to those who walk out their faith by practicing righteousness. "If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him." 1 Jn 2:29

well I don't know any osas people that don't feel works are important for our walk with the Lord, "you will know them by their fruits. I think on the most part. that when one believes in osas , that means they can live any ole way, to be ok. is an assumption on the works plus faith doctrinal believers. however if you ask this osas believer if I can live any way I want to and still be saved , I would respond OH YEAH!! But If I am truely saved than the way I would want to live, would be pleasing to my Father.

It sounds like you believe in eternal security for those who follow Christ and not OSAS.

not at all, whosoever calleth upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, my covenant of salvation is giving the time i start to believe, what I do after is for reward/jewels, but salvation is a gift of everlasting life, base on belief/faith not works, I cor 3 states that our works are tried by fire, our good works are brought forth for a reward, our bad works are burned up as a loss, but the spirit is saved, so as we see from this that even a saved person can have bad works that don't keep them lost, nor does it cause the person to lose their salvation.

1Co 3:13-15 KJV

(13)

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

(14)

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

(15)

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

[His_disciple3]

Comparing scripture with scripture, we know those who do not "hold fast the beginning confidence of faith" were not of us. This does not prove your point that anyone of Christ's sheep can perish. A pig can clean up a bit, but in the end it is still revealed to be a pig. It will go right back to the mud which is his natural habitat. A dog is still a dog. Not a sheep. Tares supposedly look nearly identical to wheat, but in the end, it is still a tare, and not wheat. Christ said plainly:

Joh 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Joh 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

A sheep of Christ will never perish. They have eternal life and they are in the hands of the great shepherd. The sheep follow the shepherd, and know his voice. He gives them eternal life as a gift, and he promises they will never perish. It's not very complicated unless we seek to make it complicated and force scriptures meant as warnings to unsaved (meaning those who do not have right faith, or a faith in the Living Christ but some other thing, or works, etc)

Unfortunately you totally ignore the context in order to support your belief. Eternal security believers are fond of quoting verse 28 while ignoring the preceding verse which provides for its context. Verse 27 plainly declares that his sheep are the ones who LISTEN to his voice and FOLLOW him. No such assurance of eternal life is given those who don't listen and don't follow. These 2 verses you cited do not support your claim and rather lend support for the exact opposite of what you believe.

I think actually you have omitted the most important verse of this text. and could you please show me where it says in this text that if any of His sheep stray, that he casted them out, and they have to earn they way back in, but look at verse 29:

Joh 10:29 KJV(29)

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

we are His sheep, if we stray He forsakes the ninety and nine and goes and gets those that have strayed, they do NOT PERISH. If you or anyone says that they can walk away from their salvation, they can pluck themslves from the fold/Flock, they are saying they are greater than God. now who are the ones following Jesus, the ones who are trusting Him, or the ones who are having to do it for themselves, Because although all that Jesus did for you, it was not good enough He left some stuff that you have to do!!!

[GISMYS]

THOSE THAT CHOOSE TO REJECT GOD HAVE NO EXCUSE!!!!==Rom 1:18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.

Rom 1:19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them.

Rom 1:20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

Rom 1:21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.

Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools