The Ten Virgins - What is the parable about? Matt 25

[rollinTHUNDER]

This is not Christ' second coming to the earth, for then He will be bringing the saints with Him when He comes. Instead, this coming is the one He promised His disciples in John 14:2-3. This coming to receive His disciples to Himself must occur before His second coming to the earth, when Christ returns as the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords with His saints.

I hope I am misunderstanding you, but it looks to me like you are saying that in that verse (Mark 13:37) that that is not Jesus second coming to the earth. I must be misunderstanding you because immediately before the verse you quoted we see exactly what this is describing:

You are correct. I do not believe neither Mark 13:26-27, nor Matthew 24:30-31 is the second coming. I do believe the gathering of the elect in the clouds, is none other than the resurrection/rapture, where believers will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

24"But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, 25AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

(the upper case letters above are from the NASB, not my doing) The fact that verse 27 begins with "and" connects it to the verse before it, so it is saying "After the tribulation, things happen and Jesus comes in power and glory and gathers His elect. 100% consistant with what I am saying and what I believe.

Yes, it will be after the tribulation, which is not God's wrath as many believe. Let's take a good look at these scriptures. I'm going to put Matthew's account right in between the other two rapture passages so we can easily compare all three of them together.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:30-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, ⁵² In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Notice that all three passages show a gathering or change after the trumpet sounds, but none of them show a returning to the earth at that time.

[rollinTHUNDER]

John 14:2-3

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This coming is also known as His appearing.

I do not disagree with you, as far as I can tell all verses and passages about Jesus coming are at His revelation or His appearing.

I disagree, the appearing is a sign. I believe it goes back to His disciples original question.

Matthew 24:3

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

It's important to know that the Jews required a sign (1 Cor.1:22, John 2:8).

His disciples didn't ask Him when He was coming, they asked for the sign that would precede His coming. And a sign is what He gave them, after the sun, moon and stars.....then would the sign of the Son of Man appear....(Matt. 24:30). If this is not convincing enough, all one has to do to know this is the rapture is look at every one of the parables that follow. Two will be in a field, one is taken, the other left. Ten virgins were waiting to go out to meet the Bridegroom, only five were ready. Then we have the parable of talents, when He returns to reward His faithful servants. Then, at the end of this parable, He gives them the sign of the end of the world (age), when He will judge the nations, separating the sheep from the goats. After He destroys the goats, then comes His second coming, when He returns with His saints to reign in the millennium.

[Montana Marv]

RollingTHUNDER

So are you saying the Rapture of the Church happens after all the earth is in mourning at Jesus Christ Returning. So in essence, We see Him returning, WE mourn, THEN we get Raptured.

Matthew 24:30-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If you see the progression, there is no (thief in the night) aspect to the Rapture. No one will know. Wow We see, We Mourn, then We are Raptured. Not Scriptural.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[rollinTHUNDER]

RollingTHUNDER

So are you saying the Rapture of the Church happens after all the earth is in mourning at Jesus Christ Returning. So in essence, We see Him returning, WE mourn, THEN we get Raptured.

Matthew 24:30-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Hi Marv,

No, those are your words, not mine. I don't understand it that way. It kind of reminds me of a dark kitchen that is infested with roaches. Once you turn on the lights, it's game over, and all the roaches are running for cover. I don't know if our english translation of this is the best. But it says the sign appears, then all the tribes will mourn and everything else is included as well. As far as the mourning, the parables shed more light on this.

If you see the progression, there is no (thief in the night) aspect to the Rapture. No one will know. Wow We see, We Mourn, then We are Raptured. Not Scriptural.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Are you assuming everyone will be ready for His sudden appearing? If someone blasts a loud trumpet and turns on a bright light while your at rest in the dark room, you will know it. I can imagine the same thing applies here.

As far as mourning, according to the following parables, it's appears that those who are not ready will be the ones mourning.

Matthew 24:51

But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

[49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

[50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

[51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:24-30

Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

[25] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

[26] His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

[27] Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

[28] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

[29] For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

[30] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And since we're on the subject of casting the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, it's a perfect opportunity to address what Omegaman thought about this. Since these are parables, not everything in them should be taken literally. Many clues are hidden in the parables, but there's also things that are added in to keep the foolish from understanding, so we need to be careful not to trip over the wrong things.

I believe those that won't be ready will be cast out of the kingdom into the outer darkness. But I do not believe the outer darkness means hell. Instead, while those who are ready go to be with the Lord, they will receive glorified bodies and go to the wedding supper of the Lamb and be rewarded. But the ones who are not ready will remain with the unbelievers and hypocrites, where Satan is the prince of this dark world. They will be weeping and gnashing their teeth when they find out they were left, and that they will be missing the wedding supper, and then they will also be forced to enter into the trial that will come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth. I believe this is why Jesus repeatedly warned His followers to be ready. If I was one that got left, I believe I'd be weeping and trembling too.

[OneLight]

Omegaman and OneLight... where do you two place the Bema Seat?

After His return, but exactly how long after, scripture is silent. I assume it wold be between the rapture and the 1000 year reign, but that is just my guess.

Revelation 22:12

And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

2 Corinthians 5:9-10

Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

[enoob57]

naturally speaking of course pretrib then allows more time for this event than mid and post allows none! Love, Steven

[OneLight]

Here is something else to consider. We are told in scripture that Jesus will return at the last trumpet and when He returns, He will be coming with His rewards. Let's see how this lines up with Revelation 11:15-18.

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,

The One who is and who was and who is to come,

Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,

And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,

And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints

,

And those who fear Your name, small and great,

And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Christ has not taken anyone back to heaven at this time. We know this by 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Here is something else to consider. We are told in scripture that Jesus will return at the last trumpet and when He returns, He will be coming with His rewards. Let's see how this lines up with Revelation 11:15-18.

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,

The One who is and who was and who is to come,

Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,

And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,

And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints

,

And those who fear Your name, small and great,

And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Christ has not taken anyone back to heaven at this time. We know this by 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I agree with this timing. I also believe that our gathering is compatible with this as well.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is a great stumbling block to the pre-trib rapture theory. Christ also mentioned the abomination of desolation happening first (Matt. 24:15), then He shed more light about the timing of this gathering as well:

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Someone said earlier that Matthew 24 is not the rapture because you won't be able to see the rapture, because it will happen in the twinkling of an eye. That may be partially true, however, they will be able to see the sign of the Son of Man appear. Jesus said, "For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be" (Matt.24:27).

The fact that it will happen in the twinkling of an eye does not nullify this possibilty whatsoever. Don't forget, it is the angels that will be doing the gathering, and they can travel at very great speeds. Some think they travel at the speed of light, others claim the speed of thought. I don't know, but they will be able to snatch us up from the earth into the clouds in a blink of an eye, no problem. Although the actual flight, itself, would be too quick to be seen, however, a great multitude gathered in the clouds immediately afterwards should not be so difficult to see.

[missmuffet]

RollingTHUNDER

So are you saying the Rapture of the Church happens after all the earth is in mourning at Jesus Christ Returning. So in essence, We see Him returning, WE mourn, THEN we get Raptured.

Matthew 24:30-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If you see the progression, there is no (thief in the night) aspect to the Rapture. No one will know. Wow We see, We Mourn, then We are Raptured. Not Scriptural.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Mathew 24 deals with the second coming of Christ not the Rapture.The two are two separate events.

[enoob57]

A good treatment of this prewrath rapture...

The Pre-Wrath Rapture view is clearly fatally flawed. The Pre-Wrath view is correct on the truth that Church Age saints will not experience the wrath of God (1 Thess. 5:9, Rev. 3:10). However, it falsely teaches that God will not be pouring out His wrath in the beginning of the seven years and Christians will experience the Seal Judgments. Revelation 6 plainly states that the Tribulation begins when Jesus Christ initiates and brings the wrath of God on the earth beginning with the seal judgments. The Pre-Wrath view fails to understand that the supposed peace of at the beginning of the Tribulation is not real peace but only a short lived political offering of peace. The political peace does not preclude that God will not be pouring out His wrath in this same period. The Pre-Wrath view has a split view of the rapture with only part of the saints of God raptured and the rest left behind to be raptured later. The Pre-Wrath view also fails to understand that the seven year Tribulation is the conclusion of the Old Testament dispensation that God postponed when Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah. It ignores that Daniel specifically prophesied that the Messiah would return at the end of the 490 year period which will end with the Lord setting up the Millennial Kingdom He promised the Jews. The Tribulation according to God's word is God purging Israel not "the church." Nowhere in Revelation 4:1 to 19:7 is Church Age saints mentioned. Every reference to believers are those saved during the Tribulation. The reason is clear because Christians in this present dispensation of the Church Age,who are the body and bride of Jesus Christ, are in heaven with Him having been raptured before the seven year Tribulation.

http://bible-truth.org/Pre-Wrath.html