Molinism

[childeye]

The reason it blows your theory out of the water is that I take responsibility for what I do and do not try to escape my responsibility by saying I was ignorant, lied to, misinformed, or any other excuse there is. I ion.was not referring to your one quest

What did Jesus say?

John 9:41

King James Version (KJV)

⁴¹ Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Yes, Jesus was addressing those who are not saved, not the saved. He also was not saying that we are blind to sin once we are saved.

Yes, but the point remains God is our goodness, and the only reason we were sold to sin in the first place is because we weren't thankful. That is the blindness.

[BlessedByTheBest]

thank you for your perspectives. i will only address question #3.

what then, caused them to consider an arduous wait? do you believe they brought enough oil of their own accord, or by the Will of God?

A tough question to answer due to semantics. God is in us. Until you experience the moment it is hard to say where the courage comes from to perservere. What makes a person steadfast? The holy Spirit? Faith? Both?

i don't believe anyone is or will be condemned to eternal damnation if not by willing choice.

no one goes to Hell by accident.

I agree. The tares planted by Satan will be seen for what they are by the choices they make.

Ha! so we can choose!

To be clear, A tare cannot choose to be a wheat, and a wheat cannot choose to be a tare. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree is known by their fruit. Therefore the tares are known by their choices and the wheat are known by their choices.

correct, but a tare can choose to be a tare.

my tree was rotten before it was nurtured back to health.

[OneLight]

So, by your definition, God is responsible for all the sin in the world and the reason why Lucifer turned against Him. That is a lie straight from the pits.

Don't take it out on me. That's just what the scripture says. Vanity is a usurping because one does not acknowledge God as everything that is good in the soul. Hence God gave men over to the lusts of the flesh to become vile and filled with all sinfulness. It says so right here.

No sir, it is not what scripture says. God is not responsible for the choices we or any of His creation makes. That is the truth I have been pointing out to you all along, that we are responsible for our own actions. You just are so tied up in the bondage of your misunderstanding that you refuse to see the truth, but only desire to defend a lie. By creating excuses for why people sin, then saying God is responsible for our sins, is not scriptural, but blasphemous.

[enoob57]

OneLight-

Yeah I have over half my tongue chewed up trying to hold it!!!!!!!!!! My hats off to your excellence brother of mine

[OneLight]

You asked how vanity came about.

I never asked how vanity came about, I asked who was responsible for Lucifer turning against God.

I quoted the scripture. It does not say "allowed". It says God "made" the creature to be subject to vanity. It certainly didn't say men were given a freewill. Then again, I have written numerous posts claiming freewill is vanity.

I know what you have written, and I pointed out to you that your understanding of Free Will is wrong, hence your false understanding. Or should I call it ignorance?

Will is the ability to choose. Free will is the ability to choose freely without any outside or external powers influencing or compelling or restraining.

will ¹ (wl)

n.

1.

a. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action: championed freedom of will against a doctrine of predetermination.

b. The act of exercising the will.

free will

n.

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.

2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

What is the first meaning of Free Will? It is "The ability or discretion to choose; free choice; choose to remain behind of my own free will". You ignore the most basic meaning only to highlight what you need to bolster your theory. All I see from what you highlighted is the condition of being constrained, as if having to work within certain parameters, as in being forced. God does not force Himself on anyone. Though God does know the beginning from the end, He does not preach fate.

First off, I highlighted divine will also. I didn't write these definitions. Nor does it say constrained, it says unconstrained. People who believe in freewill believe they are unconstrained by any divine will. As if God is not the godly wisdom in us that constrains foolishness. As if God is not our self-control which constrains sin. Hence men thought that they were wise and became fools. And that is why freewill is vanity. I don't see how you can say "God does not force Himself on us". He made us and His Spirit is our Light. Every part of us He made. So how can you say He doesn't force Himself on us when He is our Life?

That is right, you did not write them, but you did choose the second definition over the first to try and prove a point, which was a false understanding at that. I will give you that I did use the wrong word, contained, instead of constrained, though what I said was for the word constrained. The only constraint people have is what they allow themselves to have. Like it or not, we are not robots with computers that need programming in order to fulfill the requirement of making a decision. We have been given the power to reason, which sets us aside from all His other creations. They act more on instinct, with some learned reasoning. Unfortunately, you do not understand that God does not force Himself on anyone. That is not what love is about. How can I say this? Because it is written in scripture. Read it for yourself below ...

1 Corinthians 13:4-8a

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.

[OneLight]

The reason it blows your theory out of the water is that I take responsibility for what I do and do not try to escape my responsibility by saying I was ignorant, lied to, misinformed, or any other excuse there is. I ion.was not referring to your one quest

What did Jesus say?

John 9:41

King James Version (KJV)

⁴¹ Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Yes, Jesus was addressing those who are not saved, not the saved. He also was not saying that we are blind to sin once we are saved.

Yes, but the point remains God is our goodness, and the only reason we were sold to sin in the first place is because we weren't thankful. That is the blindness.

The point about our having a sinful nature is not what this verse is about. What you did was take scripture out of context, trying to make it what it is not, just like what you have been doing to what I have posted for some time. Your fruit is is full bloom.

[xero]

Will isnt only choice making its also inheritance.

Jesus gave us His will and testament. His will as testified is eternal life and we are witnesses.

We bear witness to the testimony of Christ which is the will of God.

I assure you God is Holy.

Matthew 5:29 "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Luke 11:34 "The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness."

The judgement is like Christ plucking out the evil eye that is casting blame at a cursory glance so the whole body can be full of Light.

[Fez]

In other words Fez, if I hold other men accountable for their sins, instead of seeing it as a weakness of the flesh, I condemn myself. If I now wish to blame someone for sin, then I am going to be crucifying the Christ who is the one who took the sins upon himself.

OK so you blame no one for sin?

Let's make it easy...

Do you blame God for your sin?

Do you blame Jesus for your sin?

Do you blame satan for your sin?

Do you blame yourself for your sin?

Do you blame others for your sin?

Do you blame your perceived lack of free will for your sin?

Please answer the question directly.

We can talk about repentance, grace, original sin, etc, later.

[childeye]

So, by your definition, God is responsible for all the sin in the world and the reason why Lucifer turned against Him. That is a lie straight from the pits.

Don't take it out on me. That's just what the scripture says. Vanity is a usurping because one does not acknowledge God as everything that is good in the soul. Hence God gave men over to the lusts of the flesh to become vile and filled with all sinfulness. It says so right here.

No sir, it is not what scripture says. God is not responsible for the choices we or any of His creation makes. That is the truth I have been pointing out to you all along, that we are responsible for our own actions. You just are so tied up in the bondage of your misunderstanding that you refuse to see the truth, but only desire to defend a lie. By creating excuses for why people sin, then saying God is responsible for our sins, is not scriptural, but blasphemous.

The lie as I pointed out, and am seeking to expose, not defend, is that men do not esteem God as the Light of their souls, that is the vanity that is the sinfulness spoken of below, and that is what freewill is not recognizing.

²⁴ Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. ²⁵ They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

²⁶ Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. ²⁷ In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

²⁸ Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. ²⁹ They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, ³⁰ slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; ³¹ they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. ³² Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 2

New International Version (NIV)

God’s Righteous Judgment

2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. ² Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. ³ So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? ⁴ Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

[childeye]

OneLight-

Yeah I have over half my tongue chewed up trying to hold it!!!!!!!!!! My hats off to your excellence brother of mine

By all means, say what you honestly believe. I invite your forthrightness. I am arguing that God is the Light of man. You are arguing you have a freewill to deny God, which I call the will of the flesh. And it is slavery.