7 trumpets=7bowls=7seals

[back2thebible]

I agree with wingnut the two witnesses are literal people, many have speculated they might be men from old testiment, such as Enoch or Elija or Moses

I personally believe it will be Enoch and Elijah, because neither of them died.

and actually it fulfils scripture, as it is destined for man once to die

[J-Andy]

Sorry you feel that way about the manchild-- to me it is one of the most edifying things about the end time. I believe there will be a group of believers that will walk the earth in the fullness of Christ(Jesus Christ in TOTAL control of them--fully formed in them) and in the midst of the enemy they will do the "greater works" that Jesus spoke of. I am NOT saying that all that believe in Jesus will not be saved, but that not all of them will submit their life totally to Him and become part of this group. I hope to be found worthy of this honor. I can't wait to see it--- the overcomers of God in action, all over the world-- working with the fullness of the Spirit in them, just like Jesus did-- doing ONLY what He tells them to do! Glory to God!!

Hello goldust59. I'm also sorry you feel that way about 'the manchild', as you call Jesus, which is the One the woman of Rev 12 brought forth. Your words that I highlighted are reminiscent of Peter in his zeal telling Jesus he would never deny Jesus, and cutting off the ear of the servant who came to arrest Jesus - not long before he denied Christ 3 times.

There is way too much bigotry and pride which like yeast in bread has spread throughout Christianity, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump", and now it seems the time is coming when all but the remnant will have been leavened with this evil 'manchild' doctrine. It is blasphemous and diabolical and anti-Christ.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Guest 555

[J-Andy]

But Ephraim and Dan were not part of the tribes of the children of Israel who were sealed. Rev 7 vs 4-8 They was omited with Levi and Joseph taking their places. the reasons are Lev 24 vs 10-16, Deut 29 vs 18-21, Judges 18 vs 2-31, 1 Kings 12 vs 26-33, and Hosea 4 vs 17. But they are restored later in time (after Rev 7) as mentioned in Ezekiel 48

In my opinion I feel these might just be the 2 witnesses (Moses and Elijah) but we will all find out whoever they are when that time comes

I hear what you're saying but what about the other tribes that are selaed in the Revelation? God collectiveky refers to all the Norhern tribes as "Ephraim" and what in its context is a prophecy about their restoration, Peter and Paul applied to the Gentile church. Unless Paul misapplied it, Ephraim (collectively the Northern tribes) is meant to include the 'many nations', making Abraham the father of 'many nations':

I hear you, but in its context, the above prophecy was given by God to Hosea after God had told him to take a wife of adultery, and that wife represented not the non-Israelite nations (or 'non-Jews'), but the Northern Israelite tribes:

(Hos 1:1) The Word of Jehovah that came to Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

(Hos 1:2) The beginning of Jehovah speaking by Hosea. And Jehovah said to Hosea, Go, take to yourself a wife of adultery and children of adultery. For the land has utterly gone lusting away from Jehovah.

(Hos 1:3) So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim, who conceived and bore him a son.

(Hos 1:4) And Jehovah said to him, Call his name God Will Sow. For still in a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel on the house of Jehu, and will cause the kingdom of the house of Israel to cease.

(Hos 1:5) And it shall be, at that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.

(Hos 1:6) And she conceived again and bore a daughter. And God said to him, Call her name No-mercy, for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel. But I will utterly take them away.

(Hos 1:7) But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and will save them by Jehovah their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

(Hos 1:8) And when she had weaned No-mercy she conceived and bore a son.

(Hos 1:9) And He said, Call his name Not-my-people. For you are not My people, and I will not be for you.

(Hos 1:10) Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.

(Hos 1:11) Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel.

It is this prophecy which both Peter and Paul applied to Gentiles, and in its context it referred to Israel's Northern tribes.

Also, Jospeh said of Ephraim:

(Gen 48:17) And Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, and it was evil in his eyes. And he held up his father's hand to remove it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head.

(Gen 48:18) And Joseph said to his father, Not so, my father. For this is the first-born. Put your right hand on his head.

(Gen 48:19) And his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great, but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he is, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

That Hebrew word for "nations" is again "goy". It was Ephraim - specifically, in its context, referring to the 10 Northern ribes - upon whom God first had no mercy, and then promised He would again have mercy, and whom God called "not my people" and then promised He would call them "My people" and "the sons of the living God".

In its context, the prophecy never referred to the many Gentile nations - and yet Paul and Peter apply it to the Gentile church.

[OneLight]

We can stand on our heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but God did not deliver Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego from the burning fiery furance (the great tribulation) before they were even cast into it.

the only time I was ever pre-trib was when I was a kid in sunday school and believed whatever they told me...

God did better...he delivered them IN the furnace and not even their clothes were touched...which, I believe was the entire point of God

allowing them to be thrown in in the 1st place

Unfortunately that is not the case at all for the great tribulation as the scripture clearly states that a number that no one can count were put to death in the great trib , no easy path there and no free pass through , i hear people make assumptions about protection but scripture is very clear , Christians die if they refuse the mark or the number of his name

that is certainly no protection

Now I see why you do not accept that God will protect His own, you think it means to be protected from what the Beast is going to do. The Mark of the Beast is not from God, but Satan. The protection is from His wrath, not what Satan is going to do.

[goldust59]

Yes, there will be a physical temple, but the believers do make up the spiritual temple.

I think where we differ is our sequencing of the events, and application of all scripture into the end times. The 2 witnesses I see as two individuals, Enoch and Elijah, because neither of them died and scripture tells us that it is appointed for man to die once, they still owe that death and I don't think it's coincidence that exactly two people never died. The sequence in this time is significant because after they prophesy for 3 1/2 years they are killed and lay in the street of the city where Christ was crucified, that would be Jerusalem. 3 1/2 days later they are resurrected and ascend to heaven, in chapter 11 the 7th trumpet takes place following the 2 witnesses, which would make them part of the first resurrection spoken of in Rev 20. Following that we come to chapter 12 with the woman and the dragon, if you look at that thread omegaman's post shows how I view that as well, Jesus is the man child and Israel is the woman. Scripture points right to this, and the dragon (satan) makes war in heaven at that time. This is while the marriage supper is occurring in my view, and that is why chapter 12 reveals that Michael and the angels are doing battle with the dragon, because Jesus is at the marriage supper with the saints of the first resurrection. The woman (Israel) was told by Jesus to flee in Matthew, this occurs because the dragon (satan) is cast down to the earth and things intensify, including Gods coming wrath.

Jesus gives the overcomers the honor of ruling with Him-- "over the nations","with a rod of iron".

Revelation 2:25-27~ But that which ye have already, hold fast till I come. And he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father.

In my view this event is speaking of the millennial kingdom, following the marriage supper Jesus and the saints return, and this is when He rules over the nations, from the temple.

Sorry you feel that way about the manchild-- to me it is one of the most edifying things about the end time. I believe there will be a group of believers that will walk the earth in the fullness of Christ(Jesus Christ in TOTAL control of them--fully formed in them) and in the midst of the enemy they will do the "greater works" that Jesus spoke of. I am NOT saying that all that believe in Jesus will not be saved, but that not all of them will submit their life totally to Him and become part of this group. I hope to be found worthy of this honor. I can't wait to see it--- the overcomers of God in action, all over the world-- working with the fullness of the Spirit in them, just like Jesus did-- doing ONLY what He tells them to do! Glory to God!!

The manchild doctrine I am talking about points to a completely different meaning of Rev 12, they don't see Jesus as the child spoken of, this doctrine is part of the deception. It is used to point to the a/c, so that is why I call it heresy, because it's intent is to lead people astray which will happen to many considering the things that take place during the latter days of the tribulation.

As for your interpretation regarding some believers being elevated over others, I don't see that in scripture, we are either His or we're not, we either are faithful or we're not. I think our difference is in the sequence, from what I gather of your description I see those you refer to as unqualified as the same individuals Jesus referenced in the parables of Matthew 25. They will not be part of the first resurrection in my view, and will miss out on the marriage supper and reigning in the millennial kingdom. It would help if you could give scriptural reference as to how you arrive at your conclusion, without it I'm uncertain as to the scripture you use to separate some believers from others.

Wingnut, I apologize for not giving scripture about the difference in believers--- had to get ready for work & was rushing. Still have a lot going on today but thought I would give a reply as to not seem rude or uninterested in your request. I don't have time to look them all up, but if you are interested --- look up and study out the differences in the elect, the called, & the chosen. There are differences in these terms-- not that any are elevated over the other, in terms of salvation, in God's eyes (I don't think), but that there are different callings placed on different groups by the Father for His purposes & at His appointed times.

Blessings, Deb

[wingnut-]

Wingnut, I apologize for not giving scripture about the difference in believers--- had to get ready for work & was rushing. Still have a lot going on today but thought I would give a reply as to not seem rude or uninterested in your request. I don't have time to look them all up, but if you are interested --- look up and study out the differences in the elect, the called, & the chosen. There are differences in these terms-- not that any are elevated over the other, in terms of salvation, in God's eyes (I don't think), but that there are different callings placed on different groups by the Father for His purposes & at His appointed times.

Blessings, Deb

It's quite alright, thanks for the apology but it isn't necessary, I understand life can be hectic at times, had a busy week myself. I think I understand where you are going, the Calvinist vs Armenist debate. I'll give a brief synopsis of my view so you know where I'm coming from and how I arrive at my conclusions on other things. We may differ in this area as well as our sequencing of events.

I think both arguments have merit, and both have flaws, leaving the truth somewhere in the middle. I think the confusion comes from our limited understanding, we live in a finite world, with finite understanding, which leads to finite conclusions. God being eternal and knowing the end from the beginning can and does apply foreknowledge in His perfect plan, and that leads us to get hung up on words like called, chosen, and elect.

I believe God gave each individual a choice, if this were not the case, then He purposefully created the majority to suffer eternal torment with absolutely no hope of reconciliation, and I will never accept that, that's not the God I know. I agree that certain people are chosen for various reasons, for instance, the 12 disciples. The Lord knew they would choose Him, and He knew their hearts, and this is why He chose them as disciples. In the same light, this was their calling, His purpose was far greater than they understood when they first chose to follow Christ. They also qualify as the elect, to me these three terms overlap and intersect each other, and have different layers. I think we make things much more complicated than they are, and I think under analysis we can see where these terms are applied in ways that are prideful or boastful, which is contrary to what we should be. I hope that makes sense, and to be clear I'm not accusing you of that, just expressing my general interpretation.

In closing, every believer has a calling, the question is, are we listening? Every believer made a choice and then becomes chosen, but are we doing what we were chosen for? Every believer is elect, because we are covered by His blood and His grace, but are we honoring the sacrifice? It all points back to one thing, are we doing His will? Are we following Him? Hopefully that explains where I'm coming from and we can get back on course with the thread, God bless.

[goldust59]

Wingnut, I have no idea what the Calvinist/Armenist debate is or entails.(lol) What you have written in the last paragraph is great & is at the heart of what I was trying to say--- there are only differences in the believers because of their willingness to die to self & fullfill what God is calling them to do.

We have all been given the choice and opportunity--- the follow through is the distinguishing point. Many are called, few are chosen. Blessings!

[wingnut-]

Wingnut, I have no idea what the Calvinist/Armenist debate is or entails.(lol) What you have written in the last paragraph is great & is at the heart of what I was trying to say--- there are only differences in the believers because of their willingness to die to self & fullfill what God is calling them to do.

We have all been given the choice and opportunity--- the follow through is the distinguishing point. Many are called, few are chosen. Blessings!

Ok cool, so I guess that just leaves how we differ on the sequence of the end times. From my perspective, all who take part in the first resurrection will be included in the marriage supper and the reign of the millennial kingdom. Those who did not (examples from the parables in Matthew 25) will suffer Gods wrath and the conclusion of the tribulation period.

[back2thebible]

Wingnut, I apologize for not giving scripture about the difference in believers--- had to get ready for work & was rushing. Still have a lot going on today but thought I would give a reply as to not seem rude or uninterested in your request. I don't have time to look them all up, but if you are interested --- look up and study out the differences in the elect, the called, & the chosen. There are differences in these terms-- not that any are elevated over the other, in terms of salvation, in God's eyes (I don't think), but that there are different callings placed on different groups by the Father for His purposes & at His appointed times.

Blessings, Deb

It's quite alright, thanks for the apology but it isn't necessary, I understand life can be hectic at times, had a busy week myself. I think I understand where you are going, the Calvinist vs Armenist debate. I'll give a brief synopsis of my view so you know where I'm coming from and how I arrive at my conclusions on other things. We may differ in this area as well as our sequencing of events.

I think both arguments have merit, and both have flaws, leaving the truth somewhere in the middle. I think the confusion comes from our limited understanding, we live in a finite world, with finite understanding, which leads to finite conclusions. God being eternal and knowing the end from the beginning can and does apply foreknowledge in His perfect plan, and that leads us to get hung up on words like called, chosen, and elect.

I believe God gave each individual a choice, if this were not the case, then He purposefully created the majority to suffer eternal torment with absolutely no hope of reconciliation, and I will never accept that, that's not the God I know. I agree that certain people are chosen for various reasons, for instance, the 12 disciples. The Lord knew they would choose Him, and He knew their hearts, and this is why He chose them as disciples. In the same light, this was their calling, His purpose was far greater than they understood when they first chose to follow Christ. They also qualify as the elect, to me these three terms overlap and intersect each other, and have different layers. I think we make things much more complicated than they are, and I think under analysis we can see where these terms are applied in ways that are prideful or boastful, which is contrary to what we should be. I hope that makes sense, and to be clear I'm not accusing you of that, just expressing my general interpretation.

In closing, every believer has a calling, the question is, are we listening? Every believer made a choice and then becomes chosen, but are we doing what we were chosen for? Every believer is elect, because we are covered by His blood and His grace, but are we honoring the sacrifice? It all points back to one thing, are we doing His will? Are we following Him? Hopefully that explains where I'm coming from and we can get back on course with the thread, God bless.

wingnut you are my hero!!!..............so refreshing to see someone else gets it

[goldust59]

Danielzk, the OT is full of information about the end times "great trib". I don't understand how you get that none of OT applies.