7 trumpets=7bowls=7seals

[wingnut-]

Consider how all a various denominations got started , it is because the bulk of church goers do not study the WORD outside of Sunday church or whatever day they go , so then all that they know is what a preacher told them different preacher express different views and people accept those views without verifying they are correct , so when a person of baptist church discusses some matters with a catholic there will be differences because of what was taught them , some things will be the same others will be different , they best way to be sure what is correct is to include every scripture contained within the bible about a topic study each one and learn how they all fit together like hand in glove because no scripture understood correctly will even seem to conflict with another as they are all the LORD telling us what He wants us to know,

but people get hung up on their personal interpretation and not willing to go any deeper

I am not saying you have not studied, but there are some things that should be looked into deeper, oh well freewill is for everyone

Daniel, I quoted you above to let you see what exactly you are doing that others find insulting, maybe it will help you see more clearly, because every post is littered with this type of assumption. Quite frankly it comes across as arrogant, and what you need to come to grips with is that just because someone disagrees with you does not make them uneducated or mean they have spent less time studying this than you.

There is no separate listing of what Gods wrath is compared to what satan does in any timeline

I think the 7th trumpet in chapter 11 establishes the timeline, just prior to that in verse 14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon. If you look forward then to verse 19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within His temple was seen the ark of His covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm. Compare what you see here to Rev 16:17-21

In reading all of chapter 16 here are some important verses to note on the concept of protection 16:2 The first angel poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.

16:5 Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: "You are just in these judgements, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged; 6 for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve."

This is consistent throughout the 7 bowls, hope that clarifies it.

Rev 20 is speaking exclusively of people who have died as martyrs during the great trib and does not even mention not a single word about all the people who lived for Christ and died of old age, or train accident or sickness , and it does not mention a single word about people who were given a glorified body and did not die

I guess you missed the first part of this verse 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. This section is followed by 'And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God.' The "And I" part is an inclusion of the second group with the first.

[back2thebible]

Consider how all a various denominations got started , it is because the bulk of church goers do not study the WORD outside of Sunday church or whatever day they go , so then all that they know is what a preacher told them different preacher express different views and people accept those views without verifying they are correct , so when a person of baptist church discusses some matters with a catholic there will be differences because of what was taught them , some things will be the same others will be different , they best way to be sure what is correct is to include every scripture contained within the bible about a topic study each one and learn how they all fit together like hand in glove because no scripture understood correctly will even seem to conflict with another as they are all the LORD telling us what He wants us to know,

but people get hung up on their personal interpretation and not willing to go any deeper

I am not saying you have not studied, but there are some things that should be looked into deeper, oh well freewill is for everyone

Daniel, I quoted you above to let you see what exactly you are doing that others find insulting, maybe it will help you see more clearly, because every post is littered with this type of assumption. Quite frankly it comes across as arrogant, and what you need to come to grips with is that just because someone disagrees with you does not make them uneducated or mean they have spent less time studying this than you.

There is no separate listing of what Gods wrath is compared to what satan does in any timeline

I think the 7th trumpet in chapter 11 establishes the timeline, just prior to that in verse 14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon. If you look forward then to verse 19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within His temple was seen the ark of His covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm. Compare what you see here to Rev 16:17-21

In reading all of chapter 16 here are some important verses to note on the concept of protection 16:2 The first angel poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.

16:5 Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: "You are just in these judgements, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged; 6 for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve."

This is consistent throughout the 7 bowls, hope that clarifies it.

Rev 20 is speaking exclusively of people who have died as martyrs during the great trib and does not even mention not a single word about all the people who lived for Christ and died of old age, or train accident or sickness , and it does not mention a single word about people who were given a glorified body and did not die

I guess you missed the first part of this verse 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. This section is followed by 'And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God.' The "And I" part is an inclusion of the second group with the first.

You must be on a different track, sometimes people insult me and if I speak up about it , the insults intensify , so i just ignore it but it seems that if I ask for evidence that supports a persons view then I am told I ask for too much , you apparently do not realize that all across the country that people Christians debate and ague what denomination is right or wrong and if I mention it then you make me out the bad guy .how much time a person spends is not the point it is whether or not a person is willing to study something outside of their doctrine comfort zone in order to try to see and relate to what someone else has to offer and discuss instead of making condescending remarks about some assumed view they think someone has . When people seem to misunderstand what I say ,I try to break it down to simpler terms , and still people do get it and some don't, just as I said here about trying to separate with a dividing line between what satan does and what Gods wrath , I never said there is no timeline at all as I was specifically noting that some people try to say when the the great trib ends on Gods wrath begins , as scripture does not separate it that way .Some scriptures define the entire time as the great trib so when someone gives a verse that they think supports their view and I show a scripture that shows otherwise , I again get attacked because they don't agree

Your reference to rev 20 indicates what?

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. "

does not indicate any specific generation , it does not indicate that they were in the great trib as the following statement denotes them .It may imply that those seated on the thrones were there for some extended period time well before the great trib , but it makes no mention of any peoples who had not seen death and been given glorified bodies as this pertains to a vision John seen in heaven , so it could be people who died a long time ago , it does not get specific

As I made a point before , if a person has a desire to learn and explore more , then a better way is to start fresh , from the beginning and progress forward that way it becomes more clear how things line up , but on this board it seems will not happen

.Just as in any school , there is a starting point and move forward step by step ,as when learning how to write , first learn the letters in chronological fashion , then words then sentences, It is just that here some people are not willing to do things that way then make accusations about a person that requests that it be done in a chronological manner

I believe Daniel 11:41 shows that some people will escape the power of the antichrist

[wingnut-]

Rev 20 is speaking exclusively of people who have died as martyrs during the great trib and does not even mention not a single word about all the people who lived for Christ and died of old age, or train accident or sickness , and it does not mention a single word about people who were given a glorified body and did not die

Your reference to rev 20 indicates what?

It indicates that your statement in the first quote is incorrect, as I displayed in my response the phrase "and I" is an inclusion of 2 seperate groups. Here's an example sentence for you, 'I went hiking today in the forest, I saw three deer, and I saw several squirrels.'

Trying to argue about specific generations is a cop out, and I'm sorry you choose not to admit to being in error and would rather respond with something as ridiculous as that. If you've done all the studying you know as well as I who that refers to, saints will even judge the angels according to scripture right?

You must be on a different track

This is another example of you slinging insults.

you apparently do not realize

And another

how much time a person spends is not the point it is whether or not a person is willing to study something outside of their doctrine comfort zone in order to try to see and relate to what someone else has to offer

I agree with you about this, except from your posts it is clear that you are the one entrenched in your doctrine and absolutely refuse to admit when you are shown to be in error.

When people seem to misunderstand what I say ,I try to break it down to simpler terms , and still people do get it and some don't

People aren't misunderstanding you, they simply disagree with you, and in this exchange I supplied you with good reason that you choose to dismiss.

just as I said here about trying to separate with a dividing line between what satan does and what Gods wrath , I never said there is no timeline at all as I was specifically noting that some people try to say when the the great trib ends on Gods wrath begins , as scripture does not separate it that way .Some scriptures define the entire time as the great trib so when someone gives a verse that they think supports their view and I show a scripture that shows otherwise , I again get attacked because they don't agree

I made no claim like that, so I'm not going to address an issue I did not claim. What I did address was your statement that there is no protection offered in scripture, I pointed right to where that was false. Verse 16:2, verse 16:6, and so on with the bowls. You can't honestly hold the position that saints shed the blood of saints and prophets, so why not admit that you were mistaken. You asked for proof, I provided it, is it really that difficult to admit to error?

As I made a point before , if a person has a desire to learn and explore more , then a better way is to start fresh , from the beginning and progress forward that way it becomes more clear how things line up , but on this board it seems will not happen

.Just as in any school , there is a starting point and move forward step by step ,as when learning how to write , first learn the letters in chronological fashion , then words then sentences, It is just that here some people are not willing to do things that way then make accusations about a person that requests that it be done in a chronological manner

You dedicated more of your post to playing the victim than to the actual topic, this is called passive aggressive behavior. For the record, I was raised up indoctrinated with the pre-trib theory, I attended Liberty University and graduated with a degree in eschatology still holding that position. I was in my thirties before I even realized there were other positions, so your assumptions about not stepping out of a comfort zone is lost on me. It was through individual examination, open minded discussions with others, and the leading of the Holy Spirit that showed me where I was in error.

[Babbler]

The two witnesses: the two that Nero executed, Peter and Paul.

[goldust59]

The two witnesses: the two that Nero executed, Peter and Paul.

How did you come up with that? If you gonna tell me it's because Nero was the antichrist--- don't bother. I think he was a type/shadow of the antichrist(that spirit has been around a LONG time), but he doesn't fit for the one that rises to power at THE END OF DAYS.

[wingnut-]

This was not even discussed , never spoke about saints shedding blood of saints. The premise of many people who say that Christians will be protected through the great trib speak of how that Christians will live a normal life during the great trib and not be affected by the things that happen during that time , simple matter if you reject the mark then you cannot buy or sell anything at all, that will drastically affect the way of life ,

and there is no protection from earthquakes , diseases that run rampant out of control and if you get sick , can't pay a doctor without having the mark , EVERY PERSON who lives during the great trib will experience severe hardship of some kind , those who do accept the mark will live life just as they do now until wrath begins with the bowls of judgment happen and all those judgments happen to all people except the two witnesses and the 144,000 which have been specially protected for special purpose, there is no protection given to people at all.

If any Christian accepts the mark then they get the same punishment as the rest that accept the mark Jesus gives special warning to women who would be pregnant during that time and special warning that things can be even worse if it happens to be winter for some people during that time , Nearly all believers will be put to death because they will reject the mark , a small number of people who run to the mountain tops to live might survive , but it will be severe conditions especially if it is winter , trying to stay warm and dry and hunt for food will make life very hard.

Let's say we look at this from your pre-trib perspective, people will still come to belief during the tribulation correct? This would mean that they refuse the mark, and also points to the understanding that people will survive. Will people die also? Of course, many will be killed for their faith, this is no secret, the issue wasn't about protection from the enemy, but from what God will do. Now lets just apply that to the bowls, it specifically states those who take the mark are afflicted, this excludes everyone else, that is protection. Apply the same deductive reasoning to the others, such as the reference in verse 6. As far as the 7th bowl that occurs after the last trumpet by my understanding of the sequence, so that won't involve us.

As far as the other nonsense, I just thought I would try a different approach to show you how insulting you are to others, but clearly you don't see it. Oh well, I tried, nothing personal, just trying to help.

[back2thebible]

Consider how all a various denominations got started , it is because the bulk of church goers do not study the WORD outside of Sunday church or whatever day they go , so then all that they know is what a preacher told them different preacher express different views and people accept those views without verifying they are correct , so when a person of baptist church discusses some matters with a catholic there will be differences because of what was taught them , some things will be the same others will be different , they best way to be sure what is correct is to include every scripture contained within the bible about a topic study each one and learn how they all fit together like hand in glove because no scripture understood correctly will even seem to conflict with another as they are all the LORD telling us what He wants us to know,

but people get hung up on their personal interpretation and not willing to go any deeper

I am not saying you have not studied, but there are some things that should be looked into deeper, oh well freewill is for everyone

Daniel, I quoted you above to let you see what exactly you are doing that others find insulting, maybe it will help you see more clearly, because every post is littered with this type of assumption. Quite frankly it comes across as arrogant, and what you need to come to grips with is that just because someone disagrees with you does not make them uneducated or mean they have spent less time studying this than you.

There is no separate listing of what Gods wrath is compared to what satan does in any timeline

I think the 7th trumpet in chapter 11 establishes the timeline, just prior to that in verse 14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon. If you look forward then to verse 19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within His temple was seen the ark of His covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm. Compare what you see here to Rev 16:17-21

In reading all of chapter 16 here are some important verses to note on the concept of protection 16:2 The first angel poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.

16:5 Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: "You are just in these judgements, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged; 6 for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve."

This is consistent throughout the 7 bowls, hope that clarifies it.

Rev 20 is speaking exclusively of people who have died as martyrs during the great trib and does not even mention not a single word about all the people who lived for Christ and died of old age, or train accident or sickness , and it does not mention a single word about people who were given a glorified body and did not die

I guess you missed the first part of this verse 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. This section is followed by 'And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God.' The "And I" part is an inclusion of the second group with the first.

You must be on a different track, sometimes people insult me and if I speak up about it , the insults intensify , so i just ignore it but it seems that if I ask for evidence that supports a persons view then I am told I ask for too much , you apparently do not realize that all across the country that people Christians debate and ague what denomination is right or wrong and if I mention it then you make me out the bad guy .how much time a person spends is not the point it is whether or not a person is willing to study something outside of their doctrine comfort zone in order to try to see and relate to what someone else has to offer and discuss instead of making condescending remarks about some assumed view they think someone has . When people seem to misunderstand what I say ,I try to break it down to simpler terms , and still people do get it and some don't, just as I said here about trying to separate with a dividing line between what satan does and what Gods wrath , I never said there is no timeline at all as I was specifically noting that some people try to say when the the great trib ends on Gods wrath begins , as scripture does not separate it that way .Some scriptures define the entire time as the great trib so when someone gives a verse that they think supports their view and I show a scripture that shows otherwise , I again get attacked because they don't agree

Your reference to rev 20 indicates what?

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. "

does not indicate any specific generation , it does not indicate that they were in the great trib as the following statement denotes them .It may imply that those seated on the thrones were there for some extended period time well before the great trib , but it makes no mention of any peoples who had not seen death and been given glorified bodies as this pertains to a vision John seen in heaven , so it could be people who died a long time ago , it does not get specific

As I made a point before , if a person has a desire to learn and explore more , then a better way is to start fresh , from the beginning and progress forward that way it becomes more clear how things line up , but on this board it seems will not happen

.Just as in any school , there is a starting point and move forward step by step ,as when learning how to write , first learn the letters in chronological fashion , then words then sentences, It is just that here some people are not willing to do things that way then make accusations about a person that requests that it be done in a chronological manner

I believe Daniel 11:41 shows that some people will escape the power of the antichrist

no response?

[Montana Marv]

back2thebible

A question quote of yours:

I believe Daniel 11:41 shows that some people will escape the power of the antichrist

Yes, this is referring to those of Israel who flee when the A/D is set up in the Temple. They are protected for 42 months, but close enough for them to see Christ returning to the Mt of Olives after the Battle of Armageddon. This is a protective area for the Jewish elect.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[back2thebible]

back2thebible

I'm sorry I did not see your question until Marv answered it, yes I tend to agree , as Marv said when the A/D is setup the ruler will break the agreement that gives Israel peace & security and puts out the order to kill all Jews in the area , as Judea is not within the protected area , I would have to verify the scripture but I suspect that those you refer to as Marv pointed out are in an area where the scripture refers to 42 months and they are the elect that Jesus says that for the sake of them those days would be shortened, Jesus returns and saves Israel from being totally destroyed and sets up His kingdom and the Mil begins

now I forgot my point.....lol......I think it was in regard to you saying nobody would escape the antichrist