Death Penalty

[Guest man]

man: The fact that innocent people have been wrongly convicted and executed tells me that God doesn't endorse that proccess of justice.

What? God uses imperfect people all the time! People who make mistakes.

David = Murderer/adulterer

Solomon = Adulterer

Moses = Murderer

Noah = Drunkard

Rahab = Prostitute

Peter = denier of Jesus

Etc.

God used the Jews over and over again for His purposes, and they messed up over and over again.

People will always make mistakes but God still uses them/us. You seem to forget that God was the one who instigated the death penalty in the Old Testament for various offenses (including being disobedient to parents) and He used human beings to carry it out. Do you believe innocent people weren't executed by false testimony back then?

You don't toss out the whole system when, unfortunately, mistakes are made or deception is used.

God gave everyone a system to live by (the 10 Commandments) and nobody has kept those - does that make the system bad? Does it mean God didn't actually "endorse" those commandments?

man: Why would He command us not to avenge ourselves and then turn around and have us do just that?

Were the people who carried out the death sentences for those offenses in the Old Testament "avenging themselves?" No. They were doing as God willed. God used them for His vengeance. The same as when God used people (the Israelites) to obliterate entire nations - from adults down to their children and livestock. (Midianites, Canaanites, anyone?)

Would those children be called "innocent" by you?

Your references to the old testament are references to the old covenant. From what I understand that covenant became obsolete. Where in the new covenant is it stated that the taking of a life is acceptable?

When Capitol Punishment is used today, it is not a tool to "avenge ourselves" either. It is used to punish the guilty for breaking the law, and to protect the rest of society.

How is killing an innocent person, protecting the rest of society?

[Guest LadyC]

ya know, personally i think i'm going to quit engaging in discussions with people who think the OT is irrelevant. God never changes. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Jesus didn't come to overturn (obliterate, make obsolete) the law, He came to fulfill the law.

ya know, i'm not always crazy about God's brand of justice either. but i'm thankful that He is so much more just than my fickle understanding of what's right and wrong. i'm grateful that He is consistent throughout the ages. and i'm so glad that He has given us the OT as well as the NT so that we can more fully understand His character.

just this morning i was reading (again, because this is my fourth time reading through the entire Bible) how two of aaron's sons screwed up. they were offering sacrifices TO GOD, in an act of worship TO HIM, but in a way not authorized BY Him. so what did God do? He consumed them with fire, on the spot, while their father watched. and not only that, but then God instructed that aaron and his other sons were not to mourn for them, or He would slay them as well. Harsh, much? my goodness! it makes God sound so mean! it would be so much easier to blame anyone but God. but the point is, God sees the bigger picture. and whether His children like it or not, His ways are always perfect, EVEN when He uses imperfect humans to carry out His will. (obviously, in the case of aaron's kids, He didn't use humans, so don't let that sidetrack anyone.) if His children carry out His will but do so in a deceptive manner, or a vengeful manner. you can bet God was aware even beforehand what they would do, and you can be sure that He will not let that go unpunished.

God makes commands and demands to each of us today, every day. and without fail, we screw up. God doesn't need our help with anything. He's quite capable of doing it Himself, and doing it way better than we could. but still He asks us to do things. He commands us to do things. He expects us to do things. And He knows without a doubt that we will do it wrong, over and over again.

and yet, even when our mistakes hurt other people, He keeps telling us what to do anyway.

Ayin Jade, i wanted to address something you said... about no longer supporting the death penalty because you are afraid a life will be cut short before a person can accept Christ. that's not possible. God knows the number of one's days. and He knows who will or will not come to repentance. He would not allow a life to be cut short of repentance. those things are in His control, and we need not worry about it. you see, no matter how badly we screw things up, we can never thwart His will.

[Tinky]

Where in the new covenant is it stated that the taking of a life is acceptable?

I already posted it once. But here it is again:

"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established.The authorities that exist have been established by God.Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience." (Romans 13:1-5 NIV)

To "bear the sword" is to kill."

How is killing an innocent person, protecting the rest of society?

Ending the life of a person found guilty by a jury of their peers, effectively ends any further harm they can do to any other people.

[gdemoss]

Yes, the death penalty is found in the NT. The ones wielding the sword are not always secular governing officials. Each and everyone of us who is the temple of God and posses the Holy Spirit is capable of speaking by that Spirit and inflicting Gods judgment if and when he chooses to use us.

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?

Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Act 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Last month I spoke by the Spirit unto a man and told him he would drink again. I also was led to tell him that he ought not change jobs because the new job would not pan out as he hoped. He called two days ago to confess that he drank again and that his new job did not pan out.

Last week I was told to tell a man not to speak for a week so he could truly learn to listen to others. I did not obey the voice. The man called me yesterday to tell me that he lost his voice for a week.

I confess that I do not have a perfect understanding of the things that I am talking about here by any means. The bible says 'prove all things. Hold fast to that which is true'. Once when reading the bible I was led to believe that I ought to be able to declare something true simply by believing it and speaking it so I tested it to understand if it were true. It was not.

Today I am more careful about what I say to another human being because I do not truly know what God will do with the words I speak. And although God does use the secular government to rule over and bear the sword as his ministers even though they do not know it, it is not his only source for judging people worthy of death and subsequently killing them.

Peace is only in Christ.

Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This [is] the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

[Guest Butero]

I was watching the news this evening and they were discussing whether Jodi Arias should get the death penalty for her crime.

My question is: Do you support the death penalty for certain crimes? Could you give the reasons why you support it or not?

Thanks in advance!

When someone commits murder, that sin defiles the land. The only way to cleanse the land is through putting the murderer to death. Numbers 35:30-31,33

30 Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.

31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.

33 So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood, it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.

There is nothing in the Bible that says every nation must have a death penalty in place. This was for ancient Israel, but at the same time, the principle of defiling the land still applies. For that reason, I support the death penalty. I just want there to be overwhelming evidence the person is really guilty if they are sentenced to die. With the addition of DNA tests, the likelihood of an innocent person being condemned to death are slim.

[Sevenseas]

LadyC

the NT did not EVER repeal the death penalty.

agreed

Hence Jesus dying on the cross with a criminal on either side.

I don't think a knee jerk emotional response should be given to the op and yet, that is the arguement being presented in the 'nay' camp

The adulterous woman had nothing to do with the question at hand IMO, and forgiveness of something does not mean that your entire life is suddenly made okey dokey and every sin

you ever committed had no ripple effect and you never hurt anyone.

Thinking along those lines, creates a social gospel with no reality in the facts of life and death the way I see it.

I will add I am not looking at the OT for this response, but base my response on the NT...I don't believe we follow the law...however there are laws and we need to follow them

if you understand what I mean by that

In other words, I am not saying an eye for an eye...but 1st degree murder? Death penalty and don't wait for 10 years

[Guest LadyC]

i totally agree with you SevenSeas.. except that i look in both old and new testaments, because it gives a more complete picture of God's character than taking only the NT (emphasis on grace) and the OT (emphasis on law) by itself. without knowledge of the law we can't understand and appreciate grace. i know that you don't disregard the OT, and that you're just providing your responses from a NT perspective... and that's good since some people don't accept what the OT says! but sadly for them, they're rejecting the NT references that have been given, because their lack of OT knowledge gives them a lopsided outlook. therefore, they're able to ignore romans 13 because it doesn't "weigh heavily enough" against the NT scriptures about personal vengeance, and they aren't able to put it in proper context.

[Sevenseas]

I agree LacyC...I look at both also...I noted NT only for those who try to make the case that God has become soft in the NT...He is exactly the same...the only difference is that

Jesus died for us sinners...not just so that we can be forgiven and sin again either...I know you don't believe that

And you are right...the law is an integral part of understanding grace...so many do not want to get that complicated though...but I share your conviction:

because their lack of OT knowledge gives them a lopsided outlook

I don't know why, but sending a hug your way!

[ayin jade]

Ayin Jade, i wanted to address something you said... about no longer supporting the death penalty because you are afraid a life will be cut short before a person can accept Christ. that's not possible. God knows the number of one's days. and He knows who will or will not come to repentance. He would not allow a life to be cut short of repentance. those things are in His control, and we need not worry about it. you see, no matter how badly we screw things up, we can never thwart His will.

God knows. We dont.

When Arizona voted to have the death penalty, I was not saved and I was all for it. If it were held to a vote today I do not think I would be for it again.

However I want to make it clear that if someone else is for the death penalty, I do not think ill of them for that.

[ayin jade]

With the addition of DNA tests, the likelihood of an innocent person being condemned to death are slim.

DNA tests are expensive enough that they are not always done.