Are the Dead...?

[JohnD]

The tri-unity (body, soul, spirit 1 Thessalonians 5:23) that is us must be addressed to properly answer this question.

In death our body appears to sleep and has no consciousness in death (Job 8:9 / Psalm 115:17, Ecclesiastes 9:5). It degenerates / disintegrates back into dust (Genesis 3:19).

2 Corinthians 13:1-10 states that our spirit goes to be with the Lord (believers) or Luke 16:19-31* to sheol (unbelievers) awaiting the resurrection of our bodies reuniting our spirits with our raised bodies.

Romans 8:23 (NKJV)

23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

* Ephesians 4:8-10 / 1 Peter 3:18-22 indicate that Jesus in his Spirit freed the captivity in Abraham's Bosom and took them to heaven in their disembodied state the same day he was crucified (Luke 23:43)

John 20:17 referred to his not having yet ascended to the Father in his resurrected state

The condemned will be raised to bow the knee before Jesus:

Philippians 2:9-11 (NKJV)

9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,

11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Then they will be thrown into the lake of fire where their bodies will be destroyed and their spirits will live forever in torment.

Malachi 4:3 (NKJV)

3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the Lord of hosts.

Revelation 20:11-15 (NKJV)

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 14:11 (NKJV)

11 “And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

The believers will be raised from the dead (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) or those who remain alive will be perfected (1 Corinthians 15:35-58) and so we shall ever be with him (Jesus) and like him...

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 (NKJV)

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 John 3:2 (NKJV)

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

The body in death appears to sleep and disintegrates into the elements until the resurrection of the body.

The spirit is either in heaven with the resurrected Jesus in our disembodied state (speaking of the saved) and the unsaved go to sheol until the judgement when the general resurrection takes place.

Our soul (which is interchangeably referred to as the body or the spirit since it has properties of both) ceases to exist once the spirit is separate from the body. Many suspect the soul is the buffer between the two natures or realities that is us (spirit and body). It's kind of like when yellow overlaps blue you get green and when the blue is separated from the yellow the green vanishes.

[JohnD]

ok. thank you everyone for voicing your thoughts on this.

it was my understanding that the dead now sleep since Christ's resurrection and His taking of captivity captive, although i must admit there is much scripture that seems to refute the idea.

but i believe we should focus on after Christ obtained the keys of death and Hades.

Paradise no longer exists as it was known before His ascension, but is now in the 3rd Heaven, correct? Abraham's bosom is empty.

but anyways there is just one thing that irks me...why would brother Paul say that the dead in Christ shall rise first if he was only speaking of their bodies? it doesn't make sense to me that he was not speaking spiritually here.

if they were not sleeping, then what are they rising out of or from?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

thoughts?

Paradise is mentioned three times in scripture and all three refer to heaven.

Abraham's Bosom is not paradise.

It is only man's presumption that Jesus in his Spirit spent three days and three nights in sheol.

His body was in the tomb that long. But his Spirit was in heaven the same day (before sunset at 6pm) he died at 3 pm.

Luke 23:43 (NKJV)

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 (NKJV)

1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—

4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 2:7 (NKJV)

7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

What took place in that three hour period (3pm - 6pm the day Jesus died on the cross):

Ephesians 4:8-10 (NKJV)

8 Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NKJV)

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

Abraham's Bosom has been empty ever since (believer's judgment was on the cross of Christ).

Until the general resurrection, it's pretty clear that when we die as believers we are present with the Lord absent from the body (disembodied spirits).

2 Corinthians 5:1-9 (NKJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,

3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.

4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.

7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.

8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

[BlessedByTheBest]

wow, thanks so much John! you cleared up a lot for me brother..

in addition to that awesome synopsis, i would like to add a link i have come across since starting this topic..

it seems to address the resurrection of the wicked quite well! perhaps someone will benefit from it, believer and unbeliever alike. i will warn that the website is particularly Calvinistic, but the articles therein do not necessarily lean in that theological direction..

this is from "The Resurrection of the Dead, and Eternal Judgement" by John Bunyan.

http://www.reformed.org/master/index.html?mainframe=/books/bunyan/resurrection/the_wicked_1.html

God bless..

[missmuffet]

ok. thank you everyone for voicing your thoughts on this.

it was my understanding that the dead now sleep since Christ's resurrection and His taking of captivity captive, although i must admit there is much scripture that seems to refute the idea.

but i believe we should focus on after Christ obtained the keys of death and Hades.

Paradise no longer exists as it was known before His ascension, but is now in the 3rd Heaven, correct? Abraham's bosom is empty.

but anyways there is just one thing that irks me...why would brother Paul say that the dead in Christ shall rise first if he was only speaking of their bodies? it doesn't make sense to me that he was not speaking spiritually here.

if they were not sleeping, then what are they rising out of or from?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

thoughts?

Paradise is mentioned three times in scripture and all three refer to heaven.

Abraham's Bosom is not paradise.

It is only man's presumption that Jesus in his Spirit spent three days and three nights in sheol.

His body was in the tomb that long. But his Spirit was in heaven the same day (before sunset at 6pm) he died at 3 pm.

Luke 23:43 (NKJV)

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 (NKJV)

1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—

4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 2:7 (NKJV)

7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

What took place in that three hour period (3pm - 6pm the day Jesus died on the cross):

Ephesians 4:8-10 (NKJV)

8 Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NKJV)

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

Abraham's Bosom has been empty ever since (believer's judgment was on the cross of Christ).

Until the general resurrection, it's pretty clear that when we die as believers we are present with the Lord absent from the body (disembodied spirits).

2 Corinthians 5:1-9 (NKJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,

3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.

4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.

7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.

8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

No,Jesus took those to Heaven when he came to Paradise after his death on the cross.But the unbelieving souls are still in shoel in kind of a holding pattern because hell doesn't open up until the Great White Judgement?That is what I get from my studies.

[BlessedByTheBest]

Our soul (which is interchangeably referred to as the body or the spirit since it has properties of both) ceases to exist once the spirit is separate from the body. Many suspect the soul is the buffer between the two natures or realities that is us (spirit and body).

Brother John, I found this interesting.

What makes you believe our souls cease to exist?

Are you saying that what we know as our minds, emotions, intellects, wills, and personalities are no longer present upon separation of body and spirit?

This doesn't seem right considering some of the biblical reports shared here.

If man's spirit is the breath of life given by God, then I suspect the soul is what animates the character, through bodily manifestation.

Perhaps this parallels the manner in which the Spirit of God spoken, is the Word which is made visible in the manifestation of the invisible God..Christ.

I know we cannot know what we will be as of yet, but we know we shall be like Him.

Do you believe we will at any point cease to be triune beings, short of waiting to receive our glorified bodies?

Love to you.

[BlessedByTheBest]

here are some AMAZING charts from Clarence Larkin. (pre-trib warning) is in effect. 

 

 

 

 

[Littlelambseativy]

Our soul is all of our memories - those which are good and those which can condemn. The history of our lives. No, this does not die but continues to live on as does the person in the presence of Jesus. How else can one believe that the souls of the Tribulation saints cry 'how long before our blood is avenged' if there is no memory after death?

If we will be like Jesus - He was fully aware while dead because He showed Himself to those in Hell/Sheol? No, we do not die, we are more alive than we are now and our senses are far more acute.

[rjp34652]

1) Conscious

2) Sleeping

3) Otherwise ?

please use Biblical proof for the reason of your opinions and beliefs.

i will share my own upon reading others'.

 

 

"It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

- Hebrews 9:27

 

This passage, among others implies that there are no second earthly life chances.  The only escape from sin is the blood of the lamb - Christ's sacrifice upon the cross.

Upon death the spirit of man is judged.  Those who are born again will enter into paradise with Christ.  Those who are not of the second birth will perish from the presence of God.

 

But what does that mean - absence from the presence of God.  

In the book of Revelation, the circumstance is called the second death (Rev. 2:11, 20:6,14 and 21:8).

 

But what is the nature of the second death?   A passage from the book of Jude gives us a clue.

 

"They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever."

- Jude 1:13

 

Are the dead?

 

The dead do not have multiple choice answers for their dilemma.  They're just dead.

 

The only choice available is during life, one life, upon earth.  That choice is to accept or reject the sacrifice for sin that Jesus provided upon the cross - the blood.

Accepting that is a verbal description of a very real spiritual experience called the second birth.

 

The born again or second birth experience is a fusion of the spirit of God with the spirit of the forgiven sinner.   This fusion creates a new spiritual creature spoken of in 2 Corinthians chapter 5.  The new spiritual creature is now capable of eternal life.   

 

human spirit + holy spirit = new spiritual (eternal) creature

human spirit + zero = dead spirit

 

This is why there are no second chances, meaning reincarnation.  Once the opportunity to be reborn has passed, a disembodied unregenerate human spirit loses everything it once had; body, mind, and self.

 

The loss of self is the most important concept to consider with regard to eternal damnation.

Damnation by definition means loss.

Eternal damnation means loss of everything including spiritual self-awareness.   There is no 'I' for the disembodied spirit, only an aimless helpless wandering hunger in pursuit of something it will never find - purpose/identity.

 

Jesus said that if a man loses himself for the sake of the gospel he will find himself.  If he finds himself, he will lose himself.    

Upon this is based the principle of temporal as well as eternal identity and purpose and destination.

 

Purpose is defined by relationships, never by the self.

If the relationship (with Christ or anyone else) is lost, the identity is likewise lost.  

(Ask someone newly divorced or someone who's lost a loved one to death if they're identity has not suffered damage and change - sometimes permanently.)

 

Purpose = relationship

 

No relationship with Christ = no identity in eternity, hence nothing at all

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft....

Edited June 1, 2013 by rjp34652

[missmuffet]

Our soul is all of our memories - those which are good and those which can condemn. The history of our lives. No, this does not die but continues to live on as does the person in the presence of Jesus. How else can one believe that the souls of the Tribulation saints cry 'how long before our blood is avenged' if there is no memory after death?

If we will be like Jesus - He was fully aware while dead because He showed Himself to those in Hell/Sheol? No, we do not die, we are more alive than we are now and our senses are far more acute.

 

Yes,I think that our memories stay with us but I am wondering how much of our memory from our life on this Earth?We will know our mothers,fathers,siblings from our lives on this Earth so that involves our memories.But what about all the horrible things that happened to us on Earth?Their is no tears or sorrow in Heaven.

[BlessedByTheBest]

i think that is important bopeep.  

 

does no tears or sorrow mean we cannot remember our lost loved ones that were not translated to life everlasting?  will it be as if they never existed at all upon a new earth with new heavens?

 

or does it just mean that perfect existence in the presence of God Himself will make it impossible to experience that which is not love?