Thug Tactics & Giving

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

 

No, you are mistaken. It is the truth that a pastor, placed by God to lead the 'flock'---the local church---is responsible to God for how he leads. He is the caretaker of the spiritual health of the body of Christ under his authority. He will be called to give an account.

 

1 Peter 5:2-4

Care for the flock that God has entrusted to you. Watch over it willingly, not grudgingly—not for what you will get out of it, but because you are eager to serve God. ³ Don’t lord it over the people assigned to your care, but lead them by your own good example. ⁴ And when the Great Shepherd appears, you will receive a crown of never-ending glory and honor.

 

Hebrews 13:17

Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.

 

 

Our spiritual health is our own responsibility. The truth of the matter is that if we are sinning, scripture says that those who witness our sin are to come to us and try to show us our error, it is still up to us to walk away from that sin or not. When it comes to spiritual growth, we can hear a thousand sermons, but the actual spiritual growth comes from learning of God and from God by the teaching of the Holy Spirit. It is the desire to grow, and being conformed to Jesus. No pastor can force a person to stop sinning or to force a person to grow.

 

That is very clear in the way Paul approached people. When he shared the gospel with the Bereans, he praised them for searching the scriptures to test what Paul was saying, to see if it was true. When others criticized Pauls ministry and questioned his apostleship, he did not order and demand obedience, but instead spoke persuasively.  

 

A leader is to lead by example, following God to the best of his ability, and care for the people to the best of his ability but it is not the leaders responsibility if a person sins, or fails to grow, provided he has done all that is written and followed God, and searched himself, allowing God to reveal any failures in him as a leader is a servant.

 

A person is to be responsible to God for their growth and actions. Not to the leader. A person is to judge teaching given to them to make sure it is of God.   

 

 

It's obvious you miss the point. Our pastors have a special responsibility to make sure we are fed well and guided in the truth. You cannot deny that, seeing as the word of God teaches you this. What you do with the truth is your responsibility.

 

By the way---the pastor's job doesn't begin and end with sermons. The pastor is a brother or sister in Christ who has a gift just like every one of us do.

 

I think we will have to just disagree. I do not depend on a Pastor to 'feed me well or guide me into truth'. In my view scripture says the Holy Spirit is there to guide me into the truth.

 

John 16:13

However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

 

John 6:27  Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

 

I have had the opportunity to teach at womens groups. Whatever the Lord taught me, and had me teach likewise, I taught. But, when a person hears what I teach, they hear what the Lords wants them to be taught. I have had people come up to me and thank me for the teaching. But what God taught them from my sermon isn't always what I thought I was teaching. God probably took something I said and used it to teach what they needed or were ready for, but it was not my teaching. Some learned what I was teaching and others learned something else. Those who learned something else were not all identical but differing teachings. So, did I really teach? Yes and no.

 

The other thing I have found out is while sharing the gospel, and answering questions, I learn a lot. I learn a lot when I answer questions. I actually find I learn more by answering or teaching then I do when asking questions of others or being taught.

 

There is one other scripture which applies in this.

 

Matthew 10:24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.

 

If we are disciples of the pastors, we will never be above the pastor in learning/knowledge, maturity etc. If we are disciples of Jesus, we will never be above Jesus. Every good mentor desires their students to exceed them. Therefore every good mentor wants to see their students become disciples of Jesus, not followers of the mentor. 

 

Yes, being a pastor is a gift, not unlike every other gift that people receive, and they are brothers and sisters in the Lord. Each person has a calling and purpose if they are in Messiah.  

[Floatingaxe]

Consider this as well:

 

On the other hand, people are going to be judged by what they say about the pastor, and how they respond to his leadership. The pastor's testimony about the members of his flock is going to come into play at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Hebrews 13:17 says, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." There are many people that serve for years around local churches, but they do so with much complaining and criticism of the pastor. A lot of their service in the local church is going to go up in smoke at the Judgment Seat of Christ, because of the grief and trouble that they have caused their pastor(s). Remember, we are not judged according to just the amount of things that we do for God, but the sort (the quality) of what we do (right reasons, motives, attitudes, etc.). I Corinthians 3:11-15 says, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work OF WHAT SORT it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

 

 

Excerpted from: http://www.libertygospeltracts.com/question/prequest/pastrjud.htm

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, you are mistaken. It is the truth that a pastor, placed by God to lead the 'flock'---the local church---is responsible to God for how he leads. He is the caretaker of the spiritual health of the body of Christ under his authority. He will be called to give an account.

 

1 Peter 5:2-4

Care for the flock that God has entrusted to you. Watch over it willingly, not grudgingly—not for what you will get out of it, but because you are eager to serve God. ³ Don’t lord it over the people assigned to your care, but lead them by your own good example. ⁴ And when the Great Shepherd appears, you will receive a crown of never-ending glory and honor.

 

Hebrews 13:17

Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.

 

 

Our spiritual health is our own responsibility. The truth of the matter is that if we are sinning, scripture says that those who witness our sin are to come to us and try to show us our error, it is still up to us to walk away from that sin or not. When it comes to spiritual growth, we can hear a thousand sermons, but the actual spiritual growth comes from learning of God and from God by the teaching of the Holy Spirit. It is the desire to grow, and being conformed to Jesus. No pastor can force a person to stop sinning or to force a person to grow.

 

That is very clear in the way Paul approached people. When he shared the gospel with the Bereans, he praised them for searching the scriptures to test what Paul was saying, to see if it was true. When others criticized Pauls ministry and questioned his apostleship, he did not order and demand obedience, but instead spoke persuasively.  

 

A leader is to lead by example, following God to the best of his ability, and care for the people to the best of his ability but it is not the leaders responsibility if a person sins, or fails to grow, provided he has done all that is written and followed God, and searched himself, allowing God to reveal any failures in him as a leader is a servant.

 

A person is to be responsible to God for their growth and actions. Not to the leader. A person is to judge teaching given to them to make sure it is of God.   

 

 

It's obvious you miss the point. Our pastors have a special responsibility to make sure we are fed well and guided in the truth. You cannot deny that, seeing as the word of God teaches you this. What you do with the truth is your responsibility.

 

By the way---the pastor's job doesn't begin and end with sermons. The pastor is a brother or sister in Christ who has a gift just like every one of us do.

 

 

 

I think we will have to just disagree. I do not depend on a Pastor to 'feed me well or guide me into truth'. In my view scripture says the Holy Spirit is there to guide me into the truth.

 

You appear to misunderstand---we don't really disagree! God places leaders in our lives, yet Holy Spirit is our ultimate teacher, who uses these saints to lead us in the word, having been given the gifts of teaching, of exhortation, of mercy, etc.

 

Respect your leaders, and be a respectable leader.

 

Hebrews 13:17

Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.

 

 

 

 

 

If we are disciples of the pastors,

 

I never met one of those. We are disciples of Jesus Christ.

 

 

 

 

 

[ayin jade]

Respect leaders does not at all ever mean to blindly follow them when they are wrong. Be berean. 

[Floatingaxe]

Respect leaders does not at all ever mean to blindly follow them when they are wrong. Be berean. 

 

I am certain that goes without saying, here. It does appear that some of you are missing the very simple point.

[nChrist]

Any pastor, deacon, or any other leader who advocates or knowingly allows this kind of strong-arm money collecting for a church needs to be removed from their post. A reputable church doesn't do business like this.

[Qnts2]

 

Respect leaders does not at all ever mean to blindly follow them when they are wrong. Be berean. 

 

I am certain that goes without saying, here. It does appear that some of you are missing the very simple point.

 

The thread is about a leader who abused his position by wrongly attempting to strongarm the people for more money. So, in my view the point is how to deal with leadership who are wrong. The responsibility for a bad leader, a false teacher, and abusive teach who lords it over the people is not leadership, but is believers.

 

If a leader is being Godly, following the scripture and caring for the people, that is good. But leaders being people are fallible, and being in a leadership position can cause a person begin to like power and status and position so they begin to to misuse power and position. Depending on church government, in some churches those who are responsible for hiring the pastor can also use their power, status and position to abuse the pastor. Position, power, status and money are real temptations for some people, causing them to sin.  

 

So it comes down to is what is the responsibility of us dumb sheep when leaders go awry. It certainly is not to obey those who are false leaders. The command to obey only applies to those who do their 'jobs'. To obey is not to blindly follow, but I like to compare it to giving the person the benefit of the doubt. If we think the pastor is wrong, give him the benefit of the doubt. Make his life easier if possible. 

 

Us dumb sheep are held responsible before God for allowing a false teacher to teach. That means us dumb sheep need to judge the work of the pastor to see if he is a false pastor/teacher or a true pastor/teacher, giving him the benefit of any doubts.      

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

Respect leaders does not at all ever mean to blindly follow them when they are wrong. Be berean. 

 

I am certain that goes without saying, here. It does appear that some of you are missing the very simple point.

 

The thread is about a leader who abused his position by wrongly attempting to strongarm the people for more money. So, in my view the point is how to deal with leadership who are wrong. The responsibility for a bad leader, a false teacher, and abusive teach who lords it over the people is not leadership, but is believers.

 

If a leader is being Godly, following the scripture and caring for the people, that is good. But leaders being people are fallible, and being in a leadership position can cause a person begin to like power and status and position so they begin to to misuse power and position. Depending on church government, in some churches those who are responsible for hiring the pastor can also use their power, status and position to abuse the pastor. Position, power, status and money are real temptations for some people, causing them to sin.  

 

So it comes down to is what is the responsibility of us dumb sheep when leaders go awry. It certainly is not to obey those who are false leaders. The command to obey only applies to those who do their 'jobs'. To obey is not to blindly follow, but I like to compare it to giving the person the benefit of the doubt. If we think the pastor is wrong, give him the benefit of the doubt. Make his life easier if possible. 

 

Us dumb sheep are held responsible before God for allowing a false teacher to teach. That means us dumb sheep need to judge the work of the pastor to see if he is a false pastor/teacher or a true pastor/teacher, giving him the benefit of any doubts.      

 

 

 

We don't disagree. God tells us not to allow ourselves to be deceived as well. However it is our own fault for putting the wrong person in a position of leadership rather than letting God do it. Many pastors are in their position because of their own ambition and not God's anointing.

[Openly Curious]

First things first:

This happened to friends of mine recently. It is reality, it is not theory. It was unpleasant for them, and for many at their former church, since they have left because of it. I do not want this to turn into a debate on tithing in the NT Church as there are already enough threads on that already.

Now:

This couple is married with no children as yet, had been members of the same church for years and tithed because they felt led to and wanted to support the church's missions and other programs. Then came a change in church leadership, followed by the members as a whole were told they were not giving enough because there were shortfalls in church finances, and at first subtle, then more blatant thug tactics were used to pressure them into to giving more. Soon there were several sermon series on giving, tithing, and all the rest. Then they started getting calls from the elders that stopped just shy of demanding more money. Other tactics including peer pressure were used also. They got to the point where they were not sure what to do about it all because there was clearly something wrong with the whole situation.

They eventually figured it out, but what would you do in this situation?

 

I would inquire about the date when the church held it's last annual business meeting with it members.  The yearly annual busisness meeting in the church should have an annual report showing where the money was spent and designated too accounting for every penny.  This would tell alot if it wasn't being done yearly and show if there is misappropriation of the churches funds.   

[ayin jade]

 

I would inquire about the date when the church held it's last annual business meeting with it members.  The yearly annual busisness meeting in the church should have an annual report showing where the money was spent and designated too accounting for every penny.  This would tell alot if it wasn't being done yearly and show if there is misappropriation of the churches funds.   

 

 

You know, thats a good idea.