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Mystery Babylon - could it be Mecca / Dubai?


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Clearly you did not read my initial post. America not only "belongs" to the succession, America is the the end of the succession.

 

Oh yes I read your post.  The Abyss is for fallen angels.  This eighth king comes up out of the Abyss, and goes to his destruction. Rev 17:8.  So my view is that this 8th king is angelic.  You need to determine when Satan came on the scene near the end of the 70th week.  Rev 16:13.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Satan has always been on the scene.

Let's see if you can put the pieces together with these four scriptures, try and keep track of the individual players and the power behind them.

 

Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking Him up into an high mountain, showed unto Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.  6 And the devil said unto Him, "All this power will I give you, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it."
 

Re 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven [7] crowns upon his heads.

 

Re 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten [10] crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

 

Re 17:8 The beast that thou saw, was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

 

Two seven headed, ten horn creatures. Both seen by John. The first manipulating all the kingdoms that have succeed each other through time, and the later representing the succession of those which have had direct affiliation with Israel from its birth in Egypt up to the present day with its rebirth taking place on conquered soil under England control.

 

So Marv, which one of these two beast clearly represents Satan, for they are clearly two separate beasts?

You surely wouldn't say that "The dragon gave Satan his power, and his seat, and great authority," for that wouldn't make any sense now . . .  would it?

 

 

BlindSeeker

 

First of all Satan, the Devil is also referred as the Dragon.

 

Rev 12:3  The Dragon here is referring to Satan; for he and one third of the angels in heaven lost their standing in heaven.  Go to v.9 - The great dragon was hurled down - that ancient serpent called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.  He was hurled to earth and his angels with him.

 

Now the beast of Rev 13.  This beast resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion.  This goes back to Dan 7:4-6 - the first was like a lion and it had the wings of an eagle.  The second beast looked like a bear.  The third beast looked like a leopard.  These all refer to the kingdoms of King Nebys dream.  Sorry but kingdom #1 is Babylon, #2 is Medo Persia, # 3 is Greece, and # 4 was Rome.  There are no other parts of the statue, except the ten toes of the Roman Empire.  Daniel did not mention Egypt, or Assyria.

 

So this future beast will have the attributes of the Lion/Babylon, the Bear/Medo Persia, and the Leopard/Greece.  These are all an extension of the 10 future toes of the Roman Empire.

 

So the beast that once was, and is not shall ascend out of the bottomless pit (Abyss).  Who has been chained up here?  Who is able to visit them on occasions, their leader, (Satan, the dragon, the serpent the devil). 

 

Since there are only 4 kingdoms in king Nebys dream, these 7 kings and an 8th king must represent something other than kingdoms,  So they must represent true kings/rulers.  The 7th king must rule only a short time (Rev 17:10)  The 7th king is the A/C, for he only has authority for 42 months (Rev 13:5).  A time where the whole world follows him, because he had a fatal wound, and that fatal wound was healed.  He died and came back to life, the whole world was astonished and followed after this beast.

 

The 8th king is Satan, for he wants to mimic the Second Coming,  the 7th king (A/C) mimics the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

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Regarding the AC and where he's from, I really don't think he will be from the middle east or Muslim. The scripture that comes to mind.

 

Revelation 13:16-17

New King James Version (NKJV)

He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

I don't think a Muslim or Muslim dominated country gets the opportunity to run/dominate the worlds economy. Not today, and not in the foreseeable future.
 
 
The only reason the middle east or some Muslim countries have any perceived influence or power is from the value of the oil that resides there. They tend to fight among themselves, those with oil vs those without oil, before reaching out to those who are helping those with the oil keep their oil.
 
The oil will not last forever.  
 
It's just recently that the middle east has gained a voice in world affairs.
 
Edited by Enoc
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First of all Satan, the Devil is also referred as the Dragon.

 

 

That is clearly evident and was pointed out as well in my last response to you.

 

Rev 12:3  The Dragon here is referring to Satan; for he and one third of the angels in heaven lost their standing in heaven.  Go to v.9 - The great dragon was hurled down - that ancient serpent called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.  He was hurled to earth and his angels with him.

 

Yes, this is the the dragon, Satan who has deceived Eve and has been deceiving all humanity and all nations since the the fall in the garden.

That is why I pointed out to you the distinction between the dragon/Satan/beast "having seven heads and ten horns, and seven [7] crowns upon his heads,"  and the prophetic beast representing the succession of nations intimately involved with Israel, the one that rose "up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten [10] crowns."

These are clearly to prophetic beast representing two separate aspects of John's vision. This is why I clarified one obviously comes from the abyss (the deceiver) and the other rises up out of the sea.

 

Now the beast of Rev 13.  This beast resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion.  This goes back to Dan 7:4-6 - the first was like a lion and it had the wings of an eagle.  The second beast looked like a bear.  The third beast looked like a leopard.  These all refer to the kingdoms of King Nebys dream.  Sorry but kingdom #1 is Babylon, #2 is Medo Persia, # 3 is Greece, and # 4 was Rome.  There are no other parts of the statue, except the ten toes of the Roman Empire.  Daniel did not mention Egypt, or Assyria.

 

Daniel's vision and Nebuchadnezzar are specifically dealing with events involving the present kingdom exercising dominion over Israel's land and people up to the time of Christ. Therefore there was no need for the Nebuchadnezzar to dream about what was already history and known, rather it was a revelation of what was to be up to the coming of Christ.Likewise with the visions given unto Daniel. 

 

Since there are only 4 kingdoms in king Nebys dream, these 7 kings and an 8th king must represent something other than kingdoms,  So they must represent true kings/rulers.  The 7th king must rule only a short time (Rev 17:10)  The 7th king is the A/C, for he only has authority for 42 months (Rev 13:5).  A time where the whole world follows him, because he had a fatal wound, and that fatal wound was healed.  He died and came back to life, the whole world was astonished and followed after this beast.

 

The 8th king is Satan, for he wants to mimic the Second Coming,  the 7th king (A/C) mimics the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

Perhaps then, since you feel you have this all figured out, can you please scripturally or at least historically account for the rest of the kings and clarify who they are? Because you are jumping from your speculative 4th beast Rome all the way up to the 7th being the anti-christ, topping it all off with more assumption of Satan being the 8th beast.

 

See the problem is Marv, if Satan is the 8th beast represented by the 2nd beast in Revelation 13:1, then why wasn't it just the same red dragon of Revelation 12? Why the change of description and number of crowns? These are questions you must answer biblically and/or historically if you are to retain any credibility in your theory. Otherwise you are only making assertions by forcing your opinion into the text while lacking a progressive line of reason whereby you can convincing present a reasonable foundation for your position.

 

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BlindSeeker

 

Here is a misdirected quote of yours from above ( I put it in blue)

 

Perhaps then, since you feel you have this all figured out, can you please scripturally or at least historically account for the rest of the kings and clarify who they are? Because you are jumping from your speculative 4th beast Rome all the way up to the 7th being the anti-christ, topping it all off with more assumption of Satan being the 8th beast.

 

Absolutely not.  Don't put words in my mouth, which I did not say.  I said the 4 world empires of King Nebys statue do not refer to the 7 kings and the 8th king of Rev 17:9,10.  Two separate subjects.

 

History lesson from king Neby dream of a statue.  1st empire; head of gold - Babylon.  2nd empire; chest and arms of silver - Medo Persia.  3rd empire; belly and thighs of bronze - Greece.  4th empire; legs of iron and feet partly of clay and iron - Rome  Yet, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands, it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay, and smashed them....  But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.  This is yet future.  This 4 empire statue has not been smashed as yet.  The ten toes are a reunited Rome in the last days.  This rock strikes the 4 empire statue.  Not a seven or eight empire statue.

 

So your appealing 8 world empires are not Scriptural.  A good theory.

 

Now back to Rev 13.  And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, he had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and each head a blasphemous name.  This beast is referring to the united Europe of the Roman Empire.  Ten nations (toes), with seven leaders.

 

v.3-5 - One of the heads (leaders) of the beast seemed to have a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed.  The whole world was astonished and followed the beast (one with the fatal wound).  Men worshiped the dragon, because he had given authority to the beast, they also worshiped the beast (one with the fatal wound), and asked, who is like the beast, who can make war against him.  The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and to blasphemies and to exercise his authority for 42 months.

 

Now to Rev 17:9 - the seven heads are seven hills which the woman sits v. 10 - they are also seven kings (not kingdoms), five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, but when he does come, he must remain for a little while.  The beast who once was, and now is not, is an 8th king.  He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.  Daniel 11:36-45 describes this person (8th king).  Yet, he will come to an end and nobody will help him.

 

John does not say who these five kings that have fallen are.  Only the 6th is presently in power, and another (the 7th) is yet to come.  But then there is an 8th king, who belongs to the seven, or gives them all power and authority.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

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BlindSeeker

 

Here is a misdirected quote of yours from above ( I put it in blue)

 

Perhaps then, since you feel you have this all figured out, can you please scripturally or at least historically account for the rest of the kings and clarify who they are? Because you are jumping from your speculative 4th beast Rome all the way up to the 7th being the anti-christ, topping it all off with more assumption of Satan being the 8th beast.

 

Absolutely not.  Don't put words in my mouth, which I did not say.  I said the 4 world empires of King Nebys statue do not refer to the 7 kings and the 8th king of Rev 17:9,10.  Two separate subjects.

 I am confused by your present statement, "Two separate subjects." Considering your old post below -

 

 

Now the beast of Rev 13.  This beast resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion.  This goes back to Dan 7:4-6 - the first was like a lion and it had the wings of an eagle.  The second beast looked like a bear.  The third beast looked like a leopard.  These all refer to the kingdoms of King Nebys dream.  Sorry but kingdom #1 is Babylon, #2 is Medo Persia, # 3 is Greece, and # 4 was Rome.  There are no other parts of the statue, except the ten toes of the Roman Empire.  Daniel did not mention Egypt, or Assyria.

 

So this future beast will have the attributes of the Lion/Babylon, the Bear/Medo Persia, and the Leopard/Greece.  These are all an extension of the 10 future toes of the Roman Empire.

 

So you reject the notion that any of the heads of the Beast represent Babylon, Mede/Persia, Greece or Rome. Yet assert that because the body has aspects of Daniel's beast, this 8th beast merely has similar attributes of those beasts. Beyond that, you feel there is no real connection. A simple yes or no will suffice since I am looking for clarity of your position.

 

 

History lesson from king Neby dream of a statue.  1st empire; head of gold - Babylon.  2nd empire; chest and arms of silver - Medo Persia.  3rd empire; belly and thighs of bronze - Greece.  4th empire; legs of iron and feet partly of clay and iron - Rome  Yet, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands, it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay, and smashed them....  But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.  This is yet future.  This 4 empire statue has not been smashed as yet.  The ten toes are a reunited Rome in the last days.  This rock strikes the 4 empire statue.  Not a seven or eight empire statue.

 

So your appealing 8 world empires are not Scriptural.  A good theory.

 

If it was nothing more than a theory you may have a point. But history shows 8 empires in the history of Israel . . . and it is significant that the peace talks once again will be held in Washington D.C. again. Perhaps you might invest some time looking into William Koenig's book "Eye to Eye"

 

 

Now back to Rev 13.  And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, he had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and each head a blasphemous name.  This beast is referring to the united Europe of the Roman Empire.  Ten nations (toes), with seven leaders.

 

 I will agree that the ten toes and the ten horns represent the revived Roman Empire. But cannot even begin to accept "Ten nations (toes), with seven leaders" without some credible support. If there are ten nations, why only seven leaders, or actually we should refer to them as did the angel, seven kings? 

 

Now back to Rev 13.  And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, he had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and each head a blasphemous name.  This beast is referring to the united Europe of the Roman Empire.  Ten nations (toes), with seven leaders.

 

v.3-5 - One of the heads (leaders) of the beast seemed to have a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed.  The whole world was astonished and followed the beast (one with the fatal wound).  Men worshiped the dragon, because he had given authority to the beast, they also worshiped the beast (one with the fatal wound), and asked, who is like the beast, who can make war against him.  The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and to blasphemies and to exercise his authority for 42 months.

 

Now to Rev 17:9 - the seven heads are seven hills which the woman sits v. 10 - they are also seven kings (not kingdoms), five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, but when he does come, he must remain for a little while.  The beast who once was, and now is not, is an 8th king.  He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.  Daniel 11:36-45 describes this person (8th king).  Yet, he will come to an end and nobody will help him.

 

John does not say who these five kings that have fallen are.  Only the 6th is presently in power, and another (the 7th) is yet to come.  But then there is an 8th king, who belongs to the seven, or gives them all power and authority.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Like you told me, "A good theory." But, just who are the five kings which fell, surely history should have a record you can point to? You should at least be able to verify the past even if you cannot accurately predict who in the future.  

 

However, there is considerable much more you have yet to address in Revelation 13-18 which extend beyond the scope of your theory here, as there are multiple players fulfilling specific end-time roles.  

 

Why wasn't the woman riding the beast in chapter 13 when it came up out of the sea?

 

Why does the gender reference switch from masculine to feminine, from beast to city?

 

Who has made all the merchants of the earth by reason of her costliness? Who is she?

 

Why is it when the great city was divided into three parts, the cities of the nations fell? And if the cities of nations fall, is it then end game?

 

There are many more questions than just these you'll need to address to keep your theory afloat.

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BlindSeeker:

 

 

 

 

So if we look at the whole list of those nations or empires which have had a direct relationship with Israel, either by taking her into captivity or having dominion over them and their land, it would be as follows:

 

1. Egypt

2. Assyria

3. Babylon

4. Mede/Persia

5. Greece

6. Rome

(Israel was not - therefore the beast was not)

7. England

 

But look now what the scriptures says:

 

Rev. 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Now, "the eighth" is either (1) a direct branch or decent from the seventh, or (2) it is a mixture of the seven being an end time conglomeration of multitudes, languages, nations and tongues, as a nation existing as an international melting pot, a land made up of immigrants. Either way, America alone comfortably wears this Cinderella slipper.

 

 

 

England is not the 7th beast in Rev. 17:11 The Islamic first jihad is the seventh king (beast) who conquered the Roman Empire in John's king (beast) that "had not yet come." In the Battle of Tours http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=battle+of+tours&fr=yfp-t-316&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8 The Islamic first jihad had ruled until Islam was conquered in 732 at the Battle of Tours, France. The Battle of Tours is considered one of the most important battles through Christian era history, even though today you don't hear much about it. Charles Martel defeated the Islamic army and the spread of Islam at overwhelming odds. Europe, which was practically the entire known world at that time, would have totally been taken over by Islam had Islam not been defeated at this time. This was the first Islamic jihad (beast)

 

"And I saw one of its heads as if it were wounded to death, and its deadly wound was healed; and all the world wondered after the beast.  Rev. 13:3

 

 

The second Islamic jihad is the eighth beast of the seventh head which makes up the Islamic empire

 

 

"And there are seven kings (beasts): five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. " Rev. 17:10 (One through five above are five who have fallen. At the time John wrote this Rome is the one who  "is". The other who had not come yet was the first Islamic king (beast) who continued for a short space

(until he was defeated in 732 at the Battle of Tours)"And the beast that was, (first islamic jihad king), is not, even he is the eighth (second islamic Jihad, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition." Rev. 17:11

 

 The last of satan's kingdoms is empowered by the dragon, which is Islam and the Islamic empire.

 

20dcf2b0.jpg?w=300&h=124

 

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I would disagree

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England is not the 7th beast in Rev. 17:11 The Islamic first jihad is the seventh king (beast) who conquered the Roman Empire in John's king (beast) that "had not yet come." In the Battle of Tours http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=battle+of+tours&fr=yfp-t-316&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8 The Islamic first jihad had ruled until Islam was conquered in 732 at the Battle of Tours, France. The Battle of Tours is considered one of the most important battles through Christian era history, even though today you don't hear much about it. Charles Martel defeated the Islamic army and the spread of Islam at overwhelming odds. Europe, which was practically the entire known world at that time, would have totally been taken over by Islam had Islam not been defeated at this time. This was the first Islamic jihad (beast)

 

"And I saw one of its heads as if it were wounded to death, and its deadly wound was healed; and all the world wondered after the beast.  Rev. 13:3

 

 

The second Islamic jihad is the eighth beast of the seventh head which makes up the Islamic empire

 

 

"And there are seven kings (beasts): five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. " Rev. 17:10 (One through five above are five who have fallen. At the time John wrote this Rome is the one who  "is". The other who had not come yet was the first Islamic king (beast) who continued for a short space

(until he was defeated in 732 at the Battle of Tours)"And the beast that was, (first islamic jihad king), is not, even he is the eighth (second islamic Jihad, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition." Rev. 17:11

 

 The last of satan's kingdoms is empowered by the dragon, which is Islam and the Islamic empire.

 

 

Well Nikki, certainly, I will readily acknowledge that Islam is birthed in darkness and diabolically contrary to the truth. However, Islam is a religion and not a nation and therefore has no king.

Plus, this battle has nothing to do with Israel, since Israel "was not" at the time. Prophesy has a constant whereby we can readily look for it's application, and that constant is the place where God chose to put His name, Israel/Jerusalem. It is God's holy capital of planet earth through which He proves His is the kingdom, power, and glory forever. It is as the angel said to Daniel, "Seventy weeks are determined, [1] for your people and for your holy city, [2] to finish the transgression, [3] to make an end of sins, [4] to make reconciliation for iniquity, [5] to bring in everlasting righteousness, [6] to seal up vision and prophecy, And [7] to anoint the Most Holy." 

 

That all said, I have to strongly disagree too and say back to you, "Islam is not the 7th beast in Rev 17:11."

 

Perhaps, nonetheless, you might make an attempt at explaining in your theory just how the "was, is not, yet is" the angel referred to would clearly apply to your theory. Surely this is significant since the angel put great emphasis on it by repeating it three times.

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BlindSeeker

 

A lot of questions;

 

So you reject the notion that any of the heads of the Beast represent Babylon, Mede/Persia, Greece or Rome. Yet assert that because the body has aspects of Daniel's beast, this 8th beast merely has similar attributes of those beasts. Beyond that, you feel there is no real connection. A simple yes or no will suffice since I am looking for clarity of your position.

 

Yes, I reject that notion..  Only one statue, only four empires.  Only four empires of the statue are crushed by the rock.  The Beast of Rev 13:1 (ten toed) confederation of countries has attributes of Babylon, Medo/Persia, and Greece. This is the last Empire, which is an extension of the Roman empire.  This 8th beast is not the Beast of Rev 13:1 who comes up out of the sea,  The 7th beast is not the Beast who comes up out of the sea.  He is the leader of this Beast. (a beast is the leader of the Beast)

 

IN my great grandfathers "day", it would take a man 25 "days" to walk across Montana, walking only during the "day".  Here in one sentence "day" has three different meanings.

 

"Beast" has different applications.  Used as an empire, used as a specific person, even two diverse people.  One must know their beasts.

 

Why wasn't the woman riding the beast in chapter 13 when it came up out of the sea?

 

The Beast just emerged.  It had no true leader until until one of its leaders had a fatal wound by a sword.  Yet the religious portion of this new government could be the Papacy. Yet it could also be true Babylon where most false religions came from.  For true Babylon  is the crossroads bringing the North, South, East and West together.

 

Who has made all the merchants of the earth by reason of her costliness? Who is she?

 

Again this is yet future.  America will be bankrupted when things begin to fall in place, no one will want to do business with us.  She is not the United States.

 

If you only new what countries are affected by the the 4th Seal and the 1st Trumpet.  And what areas are affected by the 2nd and 3rd Trumpets.  For these determine who the main players are before the Battle of Armageddon.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

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BlindSeeker:

 

http://photo.net/travel/israel/timeline

http://www.bible-history.com/rome/RomeTimeline__Biblical_History.htm

 

For ancient Israel timeline, see above links.

 

 

Plus, this battle has nothing to do with Israel, since Israel "was not" at the time

 

I have no idea why you stuck("Israel was not - therefore the beast was not") after Rome.

 

Israel has been since way before the Battle of Tours which occurred in 732 and 100 years after the death of Mohammed. See more on Battle of Tours http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Tours.html

 

If you study ancient Israel, you will find out that the Jewish people have always inhabitated the land of Israel no matter how few or great in number. The land of Israel never ceased to exist even though it was conquered by various empires, and the Romans changed its name to Palestine. It was always Israel. The blasphemous words on the Dome of the Rock, built in 688, setting upon Israel's Temple Mount is proof that the Islamization of the Middle East by the seventh and eighth beast (the Islamic kingdom=beast) made the Holy Land spiritually desolate.

 

 

 

 

Islam is a religion and not a nation and therefore has no king.

The book of Daniel, in 7:23, defines the term beast, when Daniel wrote "The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon the earth".  From this we can conclude the term beast = kingdom when used in the figurative language of a dream or vision of prophecy.  Besides being an evil beast kingdom, Islam is also an idealogy,  and is predominately anti-everything except allah, his (false) prophet, and is especially anti-Israel. Nothing has changed since its founder, Mohammed.  The map I posted in my previous post represents the Islamic beast kingdom at that time of the first Islamic jihad.

 

 

 

Perhaps, nonetheless, you might make an attempt at explaining in your theory just how the "was, is not, yet is"

um.. I think I have already explained this. Go back and re-read what I have written.

 

 

 

 

 

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