Why no unity?

[enoob57]

 

I would be glad to do this for you but I don't think it would be appropriate in this thread.  Even though the differences are paramount to the discussion to actually go over them is a dissertation of itself. However, to just list them or to give you a small glimpse of  the many differences I will do here.

Generally, the purpose of man's creation is different between Orthodox and most protestants and becomes an obstacle to understanding what it is that Christ expects from believers

The fall of man is about the consequence w hich was death. Physical death Gen 3:19, Rom 5:12.  It has nothing to do with the actual sin of Adam as Original Sin teaches. Man inherits a mortal nature which is the cause of his sinning proclivity. In other words man is NOT born a sinner, but mortal.

 

The purpose of the Incarnation, Heb 2:14-17 was Christ would assume a human nature from the Virgin Mary. He would assume a mortal nature in order that He could heal man who had suffered death through that same nature.  By assuming our nature, He raised our nature to life, an eternal existance for all of mankind, even the world, John 4:42. I Cor 15:12-22, Col 1:20,  II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:23-25, John 6:39 and others.

 

This eternal existance and the atonement of the sin of the world are the two works of Christ through His life, death and resurrection. Christians have always believed in the resurrection of the dead because Christ arose from the dead to give life to our mortal natures. I Cor 15:22, 53.  This is the great gift of mercy, love and grace that God through Christ gives to the world, to every human being. It is the free gift of His grace.

 

Because man now has life, an eternal existance which was lost due to the fall, Christ calls all men to repentance. God is calling all men to be united with HIm as man was created to be in this world.  To fulfil the created mandate of man to be prophet, priest and king over this creation and to bring the whole back to God as a living sacrifice.  Man is required to make a choice of either accepting God or rejecting Him. If we choose to be joined with HIm there are many obligations that must be met in order to attain to eternal life with Him.

 

The relationship between man and God is all tied up in the sacraments as to how that relationship will exist.  Protestants hold to just two and have changed the whole form, meaning and purpose of them.

The Orthodox rejects the theories of Original Sin, the Satisfaction theory of atonement, All things related to Calvinism from predestination, TULIP, to the tangents of them such as OSAS.  They do not recognize the definition of Church as protestants state it. They also reject the addition to the Nicene Creed of the filioque clause, "and the Son" thus changing the meaning of the Trinity which all protestants have taken from the RCC. They use the Liturgical form of worship. That is a start as there are other differences as well that mostly extend from these.

 

The fall of man is about the consequence w hich was death. Physical death Gen 3:19, Rom 5:12.  It has nothing to do with the actual sin of Adam as Original Sin teaches. Man inherits a mortal nature which is the cause of his sinning proclivity. In other words man is NOT born a sinner, but mortal.

My perplexity is these following verses and your statements

Ezek 18:4

4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father

As well as the soul of the son is Mine;The soul who

sins shall die.

NKJV

The soul is not the body!

 

Rom 3:23

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

NKJV

I believe I can safely say all who have sinned have been born as well!

 

The purpose of the Incarnation, Heb 2:14-17 was Christ would assume a human nature from the Virgin Mary. He would assume a mortal nature in order that He could heal man who had suffered death through that same nature.  By assuming our nature, He raised our nature to life, an eternal existance for all of mankind, even the world, John 4:42. I Cor 15:12-22, Col 1:20,  II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:23-25, John 6:39 and others.

 

That which 'IS' of God 'IS' eternal... it was not to bring eternal life to our first birth for that is crucified with Christ

AND is to be considered dead for it will not be with us when we die and are before Him!

Rom 6:5-11

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of

His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done

away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if

we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from

the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin

once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead

indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NKJV

 

It was to bring an entirely new being into our bodies (New Birth) that is kept by the power of God and cannot sin...

This is why The Lord Jesus came into the world

Heb 2:8-9

 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory

and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

NKJV

but this death here spoken of is not physical death- for we are still to die! It is spiritual death the eternal separation

from God... as this verse is proclaiming

John 8:52-53

52 Then the Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and

You say, 'If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.'

NKJV

 

  If we choose to be joined with HIm there are many obligations that must be met in order to attain to eternal life with Him.

You are teaching a works based salvation which has long been determined a heresy by this verses

Titus 3:4-7

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness

which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing

of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been

justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

NKJV

this is so rudimentary that to say anything else is to pervert the Holy Scripture

Job 9:20, Job 15:14, Job 25:4, Ps 143:2, Isa 57:12

Luke 10:27-29, Rom 3:20, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5

Rom 9:11, Rom 9:16, Rom 9:30, Rom 11:6

Gal 2:16, Gal 3:16-21, Eph 2:4, Eph 2:8-9

2 Tim 1:9

Because of your own witness of the spirit within you 'one of works to earn Christ' Jesus blood'

you best wonder why this is not so in you

1 Cor 2:12

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things

that have been freely given to us by God.

NKJV

 

The relationship between man and God is all tied up in the sacraments as to how that relationship will exist. 

Matt 7:21-23

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My

Father in heaven.  22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out

demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'  23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew

you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

NKJV

 

I see no mention in this verses construct of sacraments above ... but I do see a suggested intimate knowledge of Jesus

to all that have been born from His Grace and have been sealed intimately by His Holy Spirit within them

 

John 17:20-26

20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;  21 that they all may

be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that

You sent Me.  22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 

23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have

sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory

which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.  25 O righteous Father! The world

has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.  26 And I have declared to

them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

NKJV

Love, Steven

 

[TsukinoRei]

]But, with the Holy Spirit living in me, I have been given the ability to clearly evaluate peoples fruit and motives.

That is a bunch of baloney. You don't know beans about most Christians. We are filled with the Holy Spirit too and you are in no position to say otherwise. It is not just prideful. Prideful doesn't cut it. Judging requires you to judge people's hearts and motives and frankly, you haven't been given that kind of insight despite your delusional thoughts to the contrary.

I couldn't agree more.

Churches that promote the homosexual lifestyle including gay marriage are not true Churches. They are a forinication of bricks. Homosexuality has no place in the church and those who practice and/or promote it are not genuine followers of Jesus.

We wil know Christians by their fruit. Who ever has bad fruit is not of God, but their works are still the dirty rags of self love. Who ever knowingly sins against God is not of God, but still of the devil.

Who ever sins is fullfilling their selfish/fleshly lusts and not living by God's Holy Spirit.

This is what God's word says.

 If you guys can see sin in a Church and decide that it is therefore not a Church, then I see no reason why anyone couldn't do the same.  From there it's a hop skip and jump to there are no real Churches.

[OneWithGod]

]But, with the Holy Spirit living in me, I have been given the ability to clearly evaluate peoples fruit and motives.

That is a bunch of baloney. You don't know beans about most Christians. We are filled with the Holy Spirit too and you are in no position to say otherwise. It is not just prideful. Prideful doesn't cut it. Judging requires you to judge people's hearts and motives and frankly, you haven't been given that kind of insight despite your delusional thoughts to the contrary.

I couldn't agree more.

 

So, what don't you agree with?

 

That a person can be filled with the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Truth)?

 

Or

 

That a person filled with the Holy Spirit doesn't have God's decernment of what is Truth or lies?

 

Don't you think that God gives more godly understanding to a son of God more than a person still bond to sin? Or does a worldly person have as much or more godly understanding and Truth of God as much as a person born of God?

 

Where is you disbelief?

 

Or

 

Is it that you just don't like the Truth that is being shared by the sons of God?

Edited August 24, 2013 by OneLight

[OneLight]

]But, with the Holy Spirit living in me, I have been given the ability to clearly evaluate peoples fruit and motives.

That is a bunch of baloney. You don't know beans about most Christians. We are filled with the Holy Spirit too and you are in no position to say otherwise. It is not just prideful. Prideful doesn't cut it. Judging requires you to judge people's hearts and motives and frankly, you haven't been given that kind of insight despite your delusional thoughts to the contrary.

I couldn't agree more.

Churches that promote the homosexual lifestyle including gay marriage are not true Churches. They are a forinication of bricks. Homosexuality has no place in the church and those who practice and/or promote it are not genuine followers of Jesus.

We wil know Christians by their fruit. Who ever has bad fruit is not of God, but their works are still the dirty rags of self love. Who ever knowingly sins against God is not of God, but still of the devil.

Who ever sins is fullfilling their selfish/fleshly lusts and not living by God's Holy Spirit.

This is what God's word says.

 If you guys can see sin in a Church and decide that it is therefore not a Church, then I see no reason why anyone couldn't do the same.  From there it's a hop skip and jump to there are no real Churches.

I see this a bit differently then you do. There are tares amongst the wheat. That will be this way until Christ returns. However, if the teaching of the church goes against what scripture says, then there is false teaching, where it reflects that body of believers. That does not mean that some in the church are not true Christians. Unfortunately, the statements are not clearly showing this. By using the blanket statement about a church like this, it seems it is implying to everyone who enters the doors also.

[Thaddaeus]

nebula,

I hope that's a typing error, because what you just wrote here sounds a bit odd.

since you did not explain just why you thought it odd, I cannot further explain.

Are you saying here that you do not consider us as brothers and sisters in the Lord?

Which Christ and which Lord?  Protestants have hundreds of them.  YOu seem to think that simply using words makes it a reality.

[enoob57]

  YOu seem to think that simply using words makes it a reality.

 

Yeah that is exactly what God did in creation   Love, Steven

[Thaddaeus]

 

 

I would be glad to do this for you but I don't think it would be appropriate in this thread.  Even though the differences are paramount to the discussion to actually go over them is a dissertation of itself. However, to just list them or to give you a small glimpse of  the many differences I will do here.

Generally, the purpose of man's creation is different between Orthodox and most protestants and becomes an obstacle to understanding what it is that Christ expects from believers

The fall of man is about the consequence w hich was death. Physical death Gen 3:19, Rom 5:12.  It has nothing to do with the actual sin of Adam as Original Sin teaches. Man inherits a mortal nature which is the cause of his sinning proclivity. In other words man is NOT born a sinner, but mortal.

 

The purpose of the Incarnation, Heb 2:14-17 was Christ would assume a human nature from the Virgin Mary. He would assume a mortal nature in order that He could heal man who had suffered death through that same nature.  By assuming our nature, He raised our nature to life, an eternal existance for all of mankind, even the world, John 4:42. I Cor 15:12-22, Col 1:20,  II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:23-25, John 6:39 and others.

 

This eternal existance and the atonement of the sin of the world are the two works of Christ through His life, death and resurrection. Christians have always believed in the resurrection of the dead because Christ arose from the dead to give life to our mortal natures. I Cor 15:22, 53.  This is the great gift of mercy, love and grace that God through Christ gives to the world, to every human being. It is the free gift of His grace.

 

Because man now has life, an eternal existance which was lost due to the fall, Christ calls all men to repentance. God is calling all men to be united with HIm as man was created to be in this world.  To fulfil the created mandate of man to be prophet, priest and king over this creation and to bring the whole back to God as a living sacrifice.  Man is required to make a choice of either accepting God or rejecting Him. If we choose to be joined with HIm there are many obligations that must be met in order to attain to eternal life with Him.

 

The relationship between man and God is all tied up in the sacraments as to how that relationship will exist.  Protestants hold to just two and have changed the whole form, meaning and purpose of them.

The Orthodox rejects the theories of Original Sin, the Satisfaction theory of atonement, All things related to Calvinism from predestination, TULIP, to the tangents of them such as OSAS.  They do not recognize the definition of Church as protestants state it. They also reject the addition to the Nicene Creed of the filioque clause, "and the Son" thus changing the meaning of the Trinity which all protestants have taken from the RCC. They use the Liturgical form of worship. That is a start as there are other differences as well that mostly extend from these.

 

The fall of man is about the consequence w hich was death. Physical death Gen 3:19, Rom 5:12.  It has nothing to do with the actual sin of Adam as Original Sin teaches. Man inherits a mortal nature which is the cause of his sinning proclivity. In other words man is NOT born a sinner, but mortal.

My perplexity is these following verses and your statements

Ezek 18:4

4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father

As well as the soul of the son is Mine;The soul who

sins shall die.

NKJV

The soul is not the body!

 

Rom 3:23

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

NKJV

I believe I can safely say all who have sinned have been born as well!

 

The purpose of the Incarnation, Heb 2:14-17 was Christ would assume a human nature from the Virgin Mary. He would assume a mortal nature in order that He could heal man who had suffered death through that same nature.  By assuming our nature, He raised our nature to life, an eternal existance for all of mankind, even the world, John 4:42. I Cor 15:12-22, Col 1:20,  II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:23-25, John 6:39 and others.

 

That which 'IS' of God 'IS' eternal... it was not to bring eternal life to our first birth for that is crucified with Christ

AND is to be considered dead for it will not be with us when we die and are before Him!

Rom 6:5-11

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of

His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done

away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if

we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from

the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin

once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead

indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NKJV

 

It was to bring an entirely new being into our bodies (New Birth) that is kept by the power of God and cannot sin...

This is why The Lord Jesus came into the world

Heb 2:8-9

 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory

and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

NKJV

but this death here spoken of is not physical death- for we are still to die! It is spiritual death the eternal separation

from God... as this verse is proclaiming

John 8:52-53

52 Then the Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and

You say, 'If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.'

NKJV

 

  If we choose to be joined with HIm there are many obligations that must be met in order to attain to eternal life with Him.

You are teaching a works based salvation which has long been determined a heresy by this verses

Titus 3:4-7

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness

which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing

of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been

justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

NKJV

this is so rudimentary that to say anything else is to pervert the Holy Scripture

Job 9:20, Job 15:14, Job 25:4, Ps 143:2, Isa 57:12

Luke 10:27-29, Rom 3:20, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5

Rom 9:11, Rom 9:16, Rom 9:30, Rom 11:6

Gal 2:16, Gal 3:16-21, Eph 2:4, Eph 2:8-9

2 Tim 1:9

Because of your own witness of the spirit within you 'one of works to earn Christ' Jesus blood'

you best wonder why this is not so in you

1 Cor 2:12

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things

that have been freely given to us by God.

NKJV

 

The relationship between man and God is all tied up in the sacraments as to how that relationship will exist. 

Matt 7:21-23

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My

Father in heaven.  22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out

demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'  23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew

you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

NKJV

 

I see no mention in this verses construct of sacraments above ... but I do see a suggested intimate knowledge of Jesus

to all that have been born from His Grace and have been sealed intimately by His Holy Spirit within them

 

John 17:20-26

20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;  21 that they all may

be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that

You sent Me.  22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 

23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have

sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory

which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.  25 O righteous Father! The world

has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.  26 And I have declared to

them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

NKJV

Love, Steven

 

 

It is quite obvious you do not understand the distinction between the creation and purpose of man with the fall of man and man's redemption from that fall, so that man could fulfil that created purpose.

 

Your texts don't even address the subject or the context of the phrase you quoted of mine.  In most cases you are speaking about our personal salvation and not the salvatiion Christ gave to the world due to the fall.

This is the reason why Original Sin makes scripture false and all the succeeding doctrines unscriptural.

[enoob57]

Your texts don't even address the subject or the context of the phrase you quoted of mine. 

due to the fall. This is the reason why Original Sin makes scripture false and all the succeeding doctrines unscriptural.

 

Here and now a man may say anything... but in the end only what God has said now in His Word is our justification of

thought and behavior when we stand before him!

 In most cases you are speaking about our personal salvation and not the salvatiion Christ gave to the world

your division in salvation is not God's for it is only personal to Him as Christ Himself gave witness

Matt 7:22-23

 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons

in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'  23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew

you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

NKJV

egnon 'I knew'

first person, singular, Aorist active indicative doesn't get any more personal then this!

 

Acts 4:12

 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by

which we must be saved."

NKJV

Simply put salvation that has come into the world Through Jesus is personal, both to individual and to

The Lord... and until you throw away the heresy that is works that save you... you cannot know the

personal salvation that The Lord offers for you think it can be bought with unredeemed things-

Acts 8:18-24

18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given,

he offered them money, 19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may

receive the Holy Spirit."

20 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could

be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right

in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought

of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."

24 Then Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have

spoken may come upon me."

NKJV

Love, Steven

 

[OneLight]

nebula,

 

 

I hope that's a typing error, because what you just wrote here sounds a bit odd.

since you did not explain just why you thought it odd, I cannot further explain.

This is to point out what I believe Nebula was referring to.

Christ would of necessity be born a sinner, since she was born of Mary to give to Christ our human nature.

You referred to Christ as a she to start with, and you also imply that Christ needed to be born a sinner. Both are incorrect.

[Thaddaeus]

 

Your texts don't even address the subject or the context of the phrase you quoted of mine. 

due to the fall. This is the reason why Original Sin makes scripture false and all the succeeding doctrines unscriptural.

 

Here and now a man may say anything... but in the end only what God has said now in His Word is our justification of

thought and behavior when we stand before him!

 In most cases you are speaking about our personal salvation and not the salvatiion Christ gave to the world

your division in salvation is not God's for it is only personal to Him as Christ Himself gave witness

Matt 7:22-23

 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons

in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'  23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew

you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

NKJV

egnon 'I knew'

first person, singular, Aorist active indicative doesn't get any more personal then this!

 

Acts 4:12

 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by

which we must be saved."

NKJV

Simply put salvation that has come into the world Through Jesus is personal, both to individual and to

The Lord... and until you throw away the heresy that is works that save you... you cannot know the

personal salvation that The Lord offers for you think it can be bought with unredeemed things-

Acts 8:18-24

18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given,

he offered them money, 19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may

receive the Holy Spirit."

20 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could

be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right

in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought

of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."

24 Then Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have

spoken may come upon me."

NKJV

Love, Steven

 

 

You state that it is only personal.  You then give texts to support personal salvation.  Yet you dismiss the fall, you dismiss that fact that Christ was needed in order that man might be saved from the curse of death just so that he could again be able to have a personal relationship with Christ.   You are missing the whole Gospel and the free gift of salvation Christ gave to the world.   In essence you are denying the verses of Gen 3:19,  I Cor 15:12-22.  You don't recognize II Cor 5:18-19, or Col 1:20, Rom 3:23-25, or Rom 5:12, 18, or Heb 2:14-17,  John 6:39, dismiss the fact that we shall all be raised from the dead.  Your personal salvation does not raise you from the dead.  Clearly you have a huge different religion than that of the early Church and the Apostles.

 

Your statement of "works salvation" which seems to be a moniker of most protestants who have yet been unable after 500 years to understand the difference between "works of the law" and the "works of faith".  Could you cite where your so called "works of salvation" was declared a heresy?