Why no unity?

[OneWithGod]

Jesus said, if we continue in His Word we are truly His disciples and will know the truth and the truth will set us free and He said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life ....sounds like a process to me but thanks be to God that Jesus Himself is the truth and that means truth is relational. 

Thank you for all your posts - they are very thoughtful and properly dividing the Word of God. I enjoyed reading them.

[OneLight]

If a person is still sinning against God's known will, then the lawless one is still within them. The lawless one is the selfish nature all men are born with.

 

A believer will not sin against God's Truth (Word), otherwise they are not really believing in God's Truth (which is Christ), but is still believing in one or more lies. A person cannot believe in God's Truth and then sin against that belief of the Truth. This is a spiritual impossiblity.

 

No matter what a person says they believe, they will always show what they really believe by their actions.

So what you are saying is that every person who sins is possessed by Satan? Tell me, if it is spiritual impossible, when James said that the demons believed and trembled, was he lying?

Your understanding of the lawless one does not line up with scripture. Let's take a look at the full content of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, where this derives from.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[Faithful]

Thanks OneWithGod.....I enjoy discussing the Bible and Christian issues.....glad I found this site....

[OneWithGod]

If a person is still sinning against God's known will, then the lawless one is still within them. The lawless one is the selfish nature all men are born with.

 

A believer will not sin against God's Truth (Word), otherwise they are not really believing in God's Truth (which is Christ), but is still believing in one or more lies. A person cannot believe in God's Truth and then sin against that belief of the Truth. This is a spiritual impossiblity.

 

No matter what a person says they believe, they will always show what they really believe by their actions.

So what you are saying is that every person who sins is possessed by Satan? Tell me, if it is spiritual impossible, when James said that the demons believed and trembled, was he lying?

 

Anyone who still knowingly sins against God, still has the SAME nature of the devil, which is the sin nature or to say it another way, the selfish nature/spirit.

 

1 John 3:7-8 - Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.  NIV

 

Your understanding of the lawless one does not line up with scripture. Let's take a look at the full content of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, where this derives from.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians backs up what I am talking about, but a person must except the evil/sinful nature that is inside them or was inside them to understand it. If the selfishness is still alive in a person, then it is the selfishness that will not let a person see the truth about the evil inside them. The selfishness will not let itself see itself as evil and will be automatically blinded to God's Truth - to protect itself and self preserve itself. Edited August 27, 2013 by OneLight

[OneLight]

If a person is still sinning against God's known will, then the lawless one is still within them. The lawless one is the selfish nature all men are born with.

 

A believer will not sin against God's Truth (Word), otherwise they are not really believing in God's Truth (which is Christ), but is still believing in one or more lies. A person cannot believe in God's Truth and then sin against that belief of the Truth. This is a spiritual impossiblity.

 

No matter what a person says they believe, they will always show what they really believe by their actions.

So what you are saying is that every person who sins is possessed by Satan? Tell me, if it is spiritual impossible, when James said that the demons believed and trembled, was he lying?

 

Anyone who still knowingly sins against God, still has the SAME nature of the devil, which is the sin nature or to say it another way, the selfish nature/spirit.

 

1 John 3:7-8 - Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.  NIV

Let see if I can understand what you are trying to say. If you sin, you are following the sinful nature of our flesh, which you call Satan. When we do not sin, we are following Christ. Have you no read what Mark 3:25 says? "And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand."

Tell us, are you sinless, perfect in all your ways?

 

Your understanding of the lawless one does not line up with scripture. Let's take a look at the full content of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, where this derives from.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians backs up what I am talking about, but a person must except the evil/sinful nature that is inside them or was inside them to understand it. If the selfishness is still alive in a person, then it is the selfishness that will not let a person see the truth about the evil inside them. The selfishness will not let itself see itself as evil and will be automatically blinded to God's Truth - to protect itself and self preserve itself.

Well, then we can thank God that HE sent His Holy Spirit to convict us of our sins, can't we. Left alone to examine ourselves without truth is a waste of time. I will depend of the Holy Spirit to guide and correct me, thank you.

[OneWithGod]

Let see if I can understand what you are trying to say. If you sin, you are following the sinful nature of our flesh, which you call Satan. When we do not sin, we are following Christ. Have you no read what Mark 3:25 says? "And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand."

 

You are correct - a house devided will eventually fall apart. So, this is why a person must give up all their love and control to Christ and not keep in bondage to any sin. Until a person is fully transformed and/or converted, they will have two masters. A person must stop stradling the spiritual fence. Until they do, they are considered of the devil, because they are still not letting go of some of their sinful nature.

 

Tell us, are you sinless, perfect in all your ways?

 

I no longer live, but only Christ in me lives. So why would I sin? All desire to sin has been removed from me. I could make mistakes out of a lack of knowledge of God's will on something, but a born again Christian will never sin against the already known will of God.

 

I think the big question I would like to ask you - can you believe what I am claiming and do you want it for yourself?
 

[Guest shiloh357]

You don't think I have been trying to study this on my own now? I have. Like for instance, Psalms 51:5 is used to support original sin doctrine. But the meaning of the word translated in iniquity does not mean that David was saying he was born in sin.

Actually from the orginal language it supports Original Sin.  What you have in this verse is a parallel Hebrew poetic structure known as synonmous parallelism.  Where the second line repeats the first line but in different words.

 

Behold, I was shapen in iinquity;

And in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

Both Hebrew terms "b'avon" (in iniquity) and "b'khatah" (in sin) are words that are locative in nature and speak to how the NT represents us as being either in Adam or in Christ. Rom. 5:12-21 teaches that Adam's sin nature passed to all people.  All men and women are sinners and unless we are found in Christ we are members of Adam's race.  Pelagianism is the view that we are not sinners until we commit a sin, but that is not what Scripture says.  When get saved we are taken out of Adam and placed in Christ.  We are taken out of the bondage of sin.   It is what we call, "positional justification."

 

I personally believe that God holds infants in a state of innocence until they are old enough to understand and make a decision for or against Jesus.  The sins we commit don't make us sinners.  We sin because are sinners.  The sins we commit are symptom of a much greater problem and that is the sin that exists in us from birth.

 

But in the story of Lot and Sodom, the same word was used to describe Lot being in iniquity in Sodom. Meaning he was surrounded by it. Which is probably what David is saying in  Psalms 51:5. That he born in a sinful word, or born surrounded by sin. If I got the understanding correct. 

 

But you are mixing contexts again.   The Bible is referring to Lot being in the midst of the sin of Sodom.  But the same phrase "in sin" or "in iniquity" can be locative, as it was in the story of Lot, but is used an in an entirely different way in Psalm 51:5 and it is used differently.  To say that David was conceived with sin swirling around him in his mother's womb makes no sense and doesn't even fit the surrounding context or line of thought.

 

 Another verse used is Ezekiel 18:20 I believe. It's the verse where God says, " the soul that sins shall die, the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father ". If the son don't bear the iniquity of the father how can we bear the iniquity of Adam's sin?

 

We don't.  We don't bear the inquity of Adam's sin.  Adam's sinful nature was passed down to us, not the guilt for the sin  Adam committed.  Ezek. 18:20 is talking about a generational issue, not spiritual death.  It isn't even related to the doctrine of Original Sin.

[firestormx]

 

You don't think I have been trying to study this on my own now? I have. Like for instance, Psalms 51:5 is used to support original sin doctrine. But the meaning of the word translated in iniquity does not mean that David was saying he was born in sin.

Actually from the orginal language it supports Original Sin.  What you have in this verse is a parallel Hebrew poetic structure known as synonmous parallelism.  Where the second line repeats the first line but in different words.

 

Behold, I was shapen in iinquity;

And in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

Both Hebrew terms "b'avon" (in iniquity) and "b'khatah" (in sin) are words that are locative in nature and speak to how the NT represents us as being either in Adam or in Christ. Rom. 5:12-21 teaches that Adam's sin nature passed to all people.  All men and women are sinners and unless we are found in Christ we are members of Adam's race.  Pelagianism is the view that we are not sinners until we commit a sin, but that is not what Scripture says.  When get saved we are taken out of Adam and placed in Christ.  We are taken out of the bondage of sin.   It is what we call, "positional justification."

 

I personally believe that God holds infants in a state of innocence until they are old enough to understand and make a decision for or against Jesus.  The sins we commit don't make us sinners.  We sin because are sinners.  The sins we commit are symptom of a much greater problem and that is the sin that exists in us from birth. Are you talking about the Book of Romans chapter that is talking about being in the first Adam or Second Adam which would be Jesus?

 

But in the story of Lot and Sodom, the same word was used to describe Lot being in iniquity in Sodom. Meaning he was surrounded by it. Which is probably what David is saying in  Psalms 51:5. That he born in a sinful word, or born surrounded by sin. If I got the understanding correct. 

 

But you are mixing contexts again.   The Bible is referring to Lot being in the midst of the sin of Sodom.  But the same phrase "in sin" or "in iniquity" can be locative, as it was in the story of Lot, but is used an in an entirely different way in Psalm 51:5 and it is used differently.  To say that David was conceived with sin swirling around him in his mother's womb makes no sense and doesn't even fit the surrounding context or line of thought. Can you use the Hebrew to show me how it was used another way?

 

 Another verse used is Ezekiel 18:20 I believe. It's the verse where God says, " the soul that sins shall die, the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father ". If the son don't bear the iniquity of the father how can we bear the iniquity of Adam's sin?

 

We don't.  We don't bear the inquity of Adam's sin.  Adam's sinful nature was passed down to us, not the guilt for the sin  Adam committed.  Ezek. 18:20 is talking about a generational issue, not spiritual death.  It isn't even related to the doctrine of Original Sin. Every time I ask about a verse in connection to Original Sin you say it doesn't apply. What verses do apply?

 

Thanks for the response.

[Guest shiloh357]

Are you talking about the Book of Romans chapter that is talking about being in the first Adam or Second Adam which would be Jesus?

 

Yes.  Paul shows us, in Rom. 5:12-21 that  Adam was our federal head in the Garden and when he fell, we all fell in him.  Spiritual death passes to all men because of Adam's fall in Garden.   Jesus, as the last Adam, reversed the curse and in Christ, we receive eternal life who have accepted Jesus' free offer of eternal life.

 

Can you use the Hebrew to show me how it was used another way?

 

No, because the issue is context, not linguistics.  Context and word usage is more important than word meaning.  If I say, "i love my wife."  You understand how I am using the word, "love."   If I say, "I love ice cream,"  naturally you understand that I am using "love" in a different way, because the context of the comment is different.

 

It is the same thing when we say that Lot was in sin in Sodom vs. saying that David was conceived in sin in his mother's womb.  The verse about Lot is not referring to Lot's character but is locative in nature in that he is surrounded by sin in a wicked city.   Psalm 51:5 is not locative but rather speaks to David's character as a sinful human being.  Two different contexts and thus two different ways of using the phrase, "in sin."

 

 Every time I ask about a verse in connection to Original Sin you say it doesn't apply. What verses do apply?

 

I have not said that about every verse.  I think Psalm 51:5 does apply.  I also believe that Rom. 5:12-21 most definitely applies.   As I have stated before, you need to read a verse in context to get the line of thought to see what the author has in mind in that verse.  If you separate a verse out from its context you lose the object the author has in view.

 

If someone 4,000 years from today saw a plaque dug up from the ruins of then extinct United States of America that read, "I love to see old glory paint the wind,"   without any knowlege of our American culture, how would they interpret that text?  Context makes all the difference in interpreting the text and it is the single biggest factor in why people disagree over what the Bible says.  They allow their theology to drive their interpretation instead of the intent of the author.

[Thaddaeus]

Shiloh357,

 

Actually from the orginal language it supports Original Sin.  What you have in this verse is a parallel Hebrew poetic structure known as

synonmous parallelism.  Where the second line repeats the first line but in different words.

 

Behold, I was shapen in iinquity;

And in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

you are correct on the use of language, but it does not support Original Sin. It clearly states that

one is born in iniquity, not having iniguity. We are born into a sinful world, not that we are a sinful world, we are born by sinful parents, not

that we are parents when we are born.

 

Both Hebrew terms "b'avon" (in iniquity) and "b'khatah" (in sin) are words that are locative in nature and speak to how the NT represents

us as being either in Adam or in Christ.

In the NT there is not a single human being that would be in Adam. Unless, of course, you believe

that Christ has not yet come the first time to conquer death and sin.  Christ's purpose was to overcome the fall. He eliminated the curse of death

upon all men and atoned for the sin of the world.

 

Rom. 5:12-21 teaches that Adam's sin nature passed to all people.

Adam's nature passed to all people, but ADam did not have a sin

nature.  His nature was condemned to death, it became mortal. This is clearly stated in verse 12. Which then makes it align with the fall, in that

Adam suffered death, condemnation to death, by Satan. God confirmed it in Gen 3:19, we all would return to dust from whence we came.

Pelagianism is the view that we are not sinners until we commit a sin, but that is not what Scripture says.

your statement is

true, but it is based on what is actually the false view of Pelagius. He believed that man, no man, was effected by Adam in any way. We are all

born as Adam was created and each individual would necessarily fall on his own.

However, scripture also states that we are not sinners until we sin. Sin is a act of man. Unless you commit a sin in the womb, you cannot be a

sinner.

When get saved we are taken out of Adam and placed in Christ.  We are taken out of the bondage of sin.   It is what we call, "positional justification."

 

If you are speaking of Christ's work to save the world from death and sin, then the statement is correct. It would align with Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:22, Rom 3:23-25, Col 1:20. All men were taken out of the bondage to sin.  Man now becomes responsible for his own sin and is no longer condemned through Adam.  "Postional Justification" is a protestant theological term. In scripture this is called justification by grace, or salvation of the world, or redemption, reconciliation of the world.

 

I personally believe that God holds infants in a state of innocence until they are old enough to understand and make a decision for or against Jesus.  The sins we commit don't make us sinners.  We sin because are sinners.  The sins we commit are symptom of a much greater problem and that is the sin that exists in us from birth.

We are sinners because we sin.  The sins we commit are symtom of a much greater problem which is death.  The sting of death is sin. Rom 7:24, I Cor 15:55. Sin is something we do, not something we are.

 

We don't.  We don't bear the inquity of Adam's sin.  Adam's sinful nature was passed down to us, not the guilt for the sin  Adam committed.  Ezek. 18:20 is talking about a generational issue, not spiritual death.  It isn't even related to the doctrine of Original Sin.

YOu seem ot be confluted here.  Original Sin is about bearing the sin and guilt of Adam.  Scripture does say Adam's nature was passed down, namely our mortality.  It is that nature that influences us to sin thus we become sinful, or doing sin. Ezek 18:20 is very specifically a text that condemns Original Sin as understood by most protestants.  YOu seem to hold to a mixture of both Original Sin and scripture.