Predestination Ouestions

[Enoc]

Edwin,

 

You summed it up quite well.

 

I think if you really desire to know the truth about scripture GOD will in most instances reveal it to you.

 

God bless

[Edwin]

Thank you Enoc for your post.

 

Your comments are much appreciated.

 

Bless you.

 

Edwin.

Edited October 14, 2013 by paredwin

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know that there are a lot of schools of thought concerning predestination.  But are all predestined to salvation?

 

I have my own personal views and beliefs concerning predestination so this thread (for me at least) is to gain futher knowledge and enlightenment into the subject of predestination through the discussion that might come about. 

Predestination simply means to determine before hand. God has predetermined that those who follow Christ will be saved. However, I don't see any thing in the Scriptures that teach all are predestined to salvation. That's not to say that all can't be saved, they can be.

 

God knows before we are born if we will be in the Lamb's Book of Life.

 

Knowing something and causing it are two different things.

 

Except for the fact that God is the creator.  If he creates a person, knowing what they will do, and he designed them that way, it is the same thing.  Why create a person you know will die in their sins? 

 

It seems your premise is that God creates each person. Can you show where Scripture teaches this? If so, can you show where Scripture teaches that God creates some evil and some good?

 

Yes I can do that.  Lets begin with God creating us.  I will give you a couple of examples.

 

Jeremiah 4:5  Before I formed thee in the womb, I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

God was speaking of the prophet Jeremiah.  Next, speaking to Moses, God says in Exodus 4:11

 

Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?

 

God made everyone that exists.  As for creating some good and some evil, you can look to Romans 9:20-22

 

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?  Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

In this passage, God says he formed all of us, and made some vessels of honour and some vessels of dishonour. 

 

I don't think 3 verses taken from their context makes your case. If God formed Jeremiah that's one man, how does that prove He created every human. The passage from Ex 4 has no context. How do you argue that it refers to creating man without any context? Regarding Romans 9, it's not even taking about creating man. The subject is Israel and why some Israelites were chosen and some were not.

[Guest shiloh357]

Where the Bible mentions predestination, in each case, without exception predestination is connected to service, not salvation.  Predestination, as employed in Scripture refers to what God has predestined for believers.  It is never used in connection to who can or cannot be saved.

 

Romans 9 is another good example of this.  Romans 9 is the beginning of Paul's argument as to the justness of God causing a partial blindness to cover the eyes of the Jewish people where the plan of redemption through Christ is concerned.  In that chapter Paul defends the justness of God to use people and events for his purpose. 

 

The metahpor of the potter and the clay demonstrate this perfectly.  He is talking about vessels of honor dishonor.  The wording from the original language mean vessels for noble and less noble use. The potter has the sole authority and sovereignty over the clay to make it into anything he chooses.  He can take the same lump and make an exquisit vase from it or he can make it into a common flower pot or bed pan.  .

 

He defends God's right to choose Jacob over Esau.  He defends God's right to use Pharoah as the means by which He demonstrates His power over Pharoah and all of the gods of Egypt.  The text says that God raised Pharoah up in order demonstrate His power through Pharoah. It doesn't say that Pharoah was created in order to be destroyed.  Rather, it means that God, by means of Pharoah's own decision to harden his own heart, allowed Pharoah the opportunity to change His mind and when Pharoah ran out of time, the final judgment of God fell upon Him and all Egypt.  God did not break Pharoah.  Pharoah broke himself against the will of God.

 

 Romans chapter 9 is not a treatise on salvation like what we find in John 3:3-17 or Ephesians 2: 1-10.  How people are saved is not the object of Paul's discussion in Romans 9.

 

Vessels fitted for destruction:  "Fitted" doesn't mean "created for."    Even staunch Calvinists reject the notion that God created people for the purpose of destroying them.  Note that in Romans 9:22 it doesn't say that God made people for destruction, but in verse 23 it does say that God has prepared vessels of mercy for glory.

 

The word "fitted" in the Greek doesn't indicate a work of God at all in this particular passage.  In fact, nowhere in the Bible does it argue that God is in anyway responsible for the sinful acts or sinful state of man.  It is mankind who stands solely guilty before a holy God.

[Thaddaeus]

Where the Bible mentions predestination, in each case, without exception predestination is connected to service, not salvation.  Predestination, as employed in Scripture refers to what God has predestined for believers.  It is never used in connection to who can or cannot be saved.

 

Romans 9 is another good example of this.  Romans 9 is the beginning of Paul's argument as to the justness of God causing a partial blindness to cover the eyes of the Jewish people where the plan of redemption through Christ is concerned.  In that chapter Paul defends the justness of God to use people and events for his purpose. 

 

The metahpor of the potter and the clay demonstrate this perfectly.  He is talking about vessels of honor dishonor.  The wording from the original language mean vessels for noble and less noble use. The potter has the sole authority and sovereignty over the clay to make it into anything he chooses.  He can take the same lump and make an exquisit vase from it or he can make it into a common flower pot or bed pan.  .

 

He defends God's right to choose Jacob over Esau.  He defends God's right to use Pharoah as the means by which He demonstrates His power over Pharoah and all of the gods of Egypt.  The text says that God raised Pharoah up in order demonstrate His power through Pharoah. It doesn't say that Pharoah was created in order to be destroyed.  Rather, it means that God, by means of Pharoah's own decision to harden his own heart, allowed Pharoah the opportunity to change His mind and when Pharoah ran out of time, the final judgment of God fell upon Him and all Egypt.  God did not break Pharoah.  Pharoah broke himself against the will of God.

 

 Romans chapter 9 is not a treatise on salvation like what we find in John 3:3-17 or Ephesians 2: 1-10.  How people are saved is not the object of Paul's discussion in Romans 9.

 

Vessels fitted for destruction:  "Fitted" doesn't mean "created for."    Even staunch Calvinists reject the notion that God created people for the purpose of destroying them.  Note that in Romans 9:22 it doesn't say that God made people for destruction, but in verse 23 it does say that God has prepared vessels of mercy for glory.

 

The word "fitted" in the Greek doesn't indicate a work of God at all in this particular passage.  In fact, nowhere in the Bible does it argue that God is in anyway responsible for the sinful acts or sinful state of man.  It is mankind who stands solely guilty before a holy God.

 

Where the Bible mentions predestination, in each case, without exception predestination is connected to service, not salvation.  Predestination, as employed in Scripture refers to what God has predestined for believers.  It is never used in connection to who can or cannot be saved.

this is a key notation.

Predestinatation as understood by the reformed is not even understood properly as to its logical conclusions.  becuase it is superimposed on scripture, when scripture speaks against it, the proponents need to redefine terms, redefine the meaning of clear scripture just to maintain some semblance of validity.

[enoob57]

 

Where the Bible mentions predestination, in each case, without exception predestination is connected to service, not salvation.  Predestination, as employed in Scripture refers to what God has predestined for believers.  It is never used in connection to who can or cannot be saved.

 

Romans 9 is another good example of this.  Romans 9 is the beginning of Paul's argument as to the justness of God causing a partial blindness to cover the eyes of the Jewish people where the plan of redemption through Christ is concerned.  In that chapter Paul defends the justness of God to use people and events for his purpose. 

 

The metahpor of the potter and the clay demonstrate this perfectly.  He is talking about vessels of honor dishonor.  The wording from the original language mean vessels for noble and less noble use. The potter has the sole authority and sovereignty over the clay to make it into anything he chooses.  He can take the same lump and make an exquisit vase from it or he can make it into a common flower pot or bed pan.  .

 

He defends God's right to choose Jacob over Esau.  He defends God's right to use Pharoah as the means by which He demonstrates His power over Pharoah and all of the gods of Egypt.  The text says that God raised Pharoah up in order demonstrate His power through Pharoah. It doesn't say that Pharoah was created in order to be destroyed.  Rather, it means that God, by means of Pharoah's own decision to harden his own heart, allowed Pharoah the opportunity to change His mind and when Pharoah ran out of time, the final judgment of God fell upon Him and all Egypt.  God did not break Pharoah.  Pharoah broke himself against the will of God.

 

 Romans chapter 9 is not a treatise on salvation like what we find in John 3:3-17 or Ephesians 2: 1-10.  How people are saved is not the object of Paul's discussion in Romans 9.

 

Vessels fitted for destruction:  "Fitted" doesn't mean "created for."    Even staunch Calvinists reject the notion that God created people for the purpose of destroying them.  Note that in Romans 9:22 it doesn't say that God made people for destruction, but in verse 23 it does say that God has prepared vessels of mercy for glory.

 

The word "fitted" in the Greek doesn't indicate a work of God at all in this particular passage.  In fact, nowhere in the Bible does it argue that God is in anyway responsible for the sinful acts or sinful state of man.  It is mankind who stands solely guilty before a holy God.

 

 

 

Where the Bible mentions predestination, in each case, without exception predestination is connected to service, not salvation.  Predestination, as employed in Scripture refers to what God has predestined for believers.  It is never used in connection to who can or cannot be saved.

this is a key notation.

Predestinatation as understood by the reformed is not even understood properly as to its logical conclusions.  becuase it is superimposed on scripture, when scripture speaks against it, the proponents need to redefine terms, redefine the meaning of clear scripture just to maintain some semblance of validity.

 

Excellence in the study of context toward God's purposed speaking...

[Openly Curious]

Where the Bible mentions predestination, in each case, without exception predestination is connected to service, not salvation.  Predestination, as employed in Scripture refers to what God has predestined for believers.  It is never used in connection to who can or cannot be saved.

 

Romans 9 is another good example of this.  Romans 9 is the beginning of Paul's argument as to the justness of God causing a partial blindness to cover the eyes of the Jewish people where the plan of redemption through Christ is concerned.  In that chapter Paul defends the justness of God to use people and events for his purpose. 

 

The metahpor of the potter and the clay demonstrate this perfectly.  He is talking about vessels of honor dishonor.  The wording from the original language mean vessels for noble and less noble use. The potter has the sole authority and sovereignty over the clay to make it into anything he chooses.  He can take the same lump and make an exquisit vase from it or he can make it into a common flower pot or bed pan.  .

 

He defends God's right to choose Jacob over Esau.  He defends God's right to use Pharoah as the means by which He demonstrates His power over Pharoah and all of the gods of Egypt.  The text says that God raised Pharoah up in order demonstrate His power through Pharoah. It doesn't say that Pharoah was created in order to be destroyed.  Rather, it means that God, by means of Pharoah's own decision to harden his own heart, allowed Pharoah the opportunity to change His mind and when Pharoah ran out of time, the final judgment of God fell upon Him and all Egypt.  God did not break Pharoah.  Pharoah broke himself against the will of God.

 

 Romans chapter 9 is not a treatise on salvation like what we find in John 3:3-17 or Ephesians 2: 1-10.  How people are saved is not the object of Paul's discussion in Romans 9.

 

Vessels fitted for destruction:  "Fitted" doesn't mean "created for."    Even staunch Calvinists reject the notion that God created people for the purpose of destroying them.  Note that in Romans 9:22 it doesn't say that God made people for destruction, but in verse 23 it does say that God has prepared vessels of mercy for glory.

 

The word "fitted" in the Greek doesn't indicate a work of God at all in this particular passage.  In fact, nowhere in the Bible does it argue that God is in anyway responsible for the sinful acts or sinful state of man.  It is mankind who stands solely guilty before a holy God.

I would tend to think and do see predestination as "provision" in which God has provided for mankind to be saved in Jesus Christ.  It was the plan of God from before the foundation of the earth was laid that Jews and Gentiles alike could become heirs to the promises of God as God has broken down the middle wall of partion between us thus making one new man.  All things are being reconciled back to the Father only in and through Christ Jesus his only begotten Son.  Every person born into this world stands guilty of sin before God and are without excuse for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.  All are in need of a Savior Jew and gentile alike.  Everyone born into this world at birth is not born evil or guilty of sin but are born in a state of innocence.  A medical doctor told me once that when a baby is born it does not have any bacteria even but gets the bacteria inside of it's body by and after being and breathing in this world.  It is this world that corrupts us not our birth being born evil that kind of thinking is error and is not found in the word of God being taught by the Spirit.  We are not born with shame or guilt or evil, but all that are born into this world will die a physical death and will be corrupted by sin that has been abounding in this world since the fall in the garden everyone will sin in their life time and will need a Saviour to be reconciled to right fellowship with the Father.  God has made provision for the salvation of the souls of man through Jesus Christ.  In Christ we are his workmanship as we are being changed from one level of glory to the next as we allow Christ to be Lord of our lives and follow him being our example keeping our eyes fixed and single.  But if we reject Christ and will not come to Christ for salvation we will continue to be changed from one level of iniquity to another level of iniquity.  In other words our sin debt will abound and increase in our lives and remaining in that sinful state with unconfessed sin you remain and are fitted in that state for destruction.  But in Christ we are his workmanship created for his purpose as righteousness has been inputed to us through faith as we recieve the gift of God grace and mercy the forgiveness of our sins being blotted out.  To me this is predestination provision for life eternal in Christ and no other. 

[Guest shiloh357]

I would tend to think and do see predestination as "provision" in which God has provided for mankind to be saved in Jesus Christ. 

 

That is not how the Bible presents predestination, though.  Predestination only occurs in the context of service, not salvation.   Predestination, biblically speaking refers to what God has fore ordained for Christians to be.  Predestination belongs to the process of sanctification.  God has predestined that we who are saved are to be conformed into the image of His Son.  Predestination speaks to our pre-determined, full and final destiny to finally be conformed into the image of Christ.

[Openly Curious]

 

I would tend to think and do see predestination as "provision" in which God has provided for mankind to be saved in Jesus Christ. 

 

That is not how the Bible presents predestination, though.  Predestination only occurs in the context of service, not salvation.   Predestination, biblically speaking refers to what God has fore ordained for Christians to be.  Predestination belongs to the process of sanctification.  God has predestined that we who are saved are to be conformed into the image of His Son.  Predestination speaks to our pre-determined, full and final destiny to finally be conformed into the image of Christ.

 

 

To me I don't see that there is much difference in what we are saying as God has ordained or predestined that we be conformed to his image.  That can only happen and begin when we say yes to the Lordship of Christ and are made a new creature in Christ Jesus as we are reconciled or restored back to right fellowship with God the Father.  As I stated that we are his workmanship "created" in Christ Jesus.  We are predestined and ordained to be kings and priests of God a royal people, a holy nation, sons and daughters of God etc.,  but without Christ I can't become those things.  Everything I need has been provided and given through the bodily sacrifice of Jesus's own body given on the cross.  I think my service would be but vein without Christ's sacrifice and his shed blood for the atonement of my sins.  Especially I can see this being a gentile myself and according to the bible I have been sanctified by the blood of Jesus set apart for his service and have been adopted into the family of God.   But not all will come to Christ and be conformed to his image as they remain unregenerated, unrepentant and so forth.  But it is not because salvation hasn't been provided for all because it has.  Without Christ I could not be predestined or inherit the promises of God.  Anywho I really don't see much difference in what we are both saying.

[JohnD]

I know that there are a lot of schools of thought concerning predestination.  But are all predestined to salvation?

 

I have my own personal views and beliefs concerning predestination so this thread (for me at least) is to gain futher knowledge and enlightenment into the subject of predestination through the discussion that might come about. 

 

Limited temporal minds cannot understand what an omniscient mind already knows.

 

Over 33 years ago I nearly chickened out of calling the woman who would become my life long wife and love of my life.

 

We met in a most romantic way, in fact we won a "how I met my spouse" contest in a woman's magazine 20 years ago. The name escapes me. But our story was published.

 

It was July 4, 1980. I was in the Navy and a  member of a rifle drill team all decked out in our best uniforms. We marched in the Harborfest Independence Day parade in the shadow of the World Trade Center from Battery Park to some destination 2 miles North. When the parade was over the prettiest woman I have ever seen gave me a note with her phone number and said something like "you caught my eye." My ship was to move to Brooklyn the next day after a short harbor cruise so if I did not call her that day I would have missed out the second best thing that ever happened to me (after the Lord Jesus). And as I said I nearly chickened out. In fact I was about to go into the Music Box theater to see Death Trap with a shipmate who bought me a ticket when I suddenly changed my mind and went to the nearest phone booth and called my Bride to be.

 

God had laid out our life together before the earth ever was... but it was my choice to make that call. 

 

Predestination versus free will is a strawman argument. The Bible simply says that the Father knows all things. He knows who will believe and who won't. But it is still our choice when the time comes.

 

Like most things we cannot quite get when we enter into the equation the omniscient mind of God, everything smooths out and is frankly simple.