Where is the true Law of God?

[OneLight]

Hmmm, never is the word abolish used in scripture when Jesus spoke of the laws.

 

Matthew 5:17

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

 

The law that Jesus came not to abolish is the Law of the Gospel

"Think not that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets ... " (Matthew 5:17-20)

This is where you go wrong. When Jesus referred to the laws, He was referring to the Torah. There was no Gospels yet, He had not done His works which is what the Gospels consist of.

What scripture do you have that states Jesus came to abolish the law?

[other one]

 

What scripture do you have that states Jesus came to abolish the law?

 

 

 

 

Gal 3:1-4:1

3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain —  if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. 10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, " The righteous man shall live by faith. " 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us —  for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree" —  14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made. 20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

 

 

This whole chapter is relevant to understand the bold part.    The law was a teacher or tutor until Jesus came, but we're no longer under the tutor if we are under the saving grace of Christ who has a different set of things for us to live by.

 

so,though He did not abolish the law, he made it none effect for those of us who follow him so to speak.   for those who do not declare his lordship or believe, the law is still valid and condemns them.   i might add though that the law never gave life to anyone, if it was capable of doing so there would have been no reason for Jesus to die.

[GoldenEagle]

Thanks for your answer.

The Act wich would not pass one jot or tittle, and that was given forever, is the law of Jesus Christ, because He himself tells us that this is the Law and the Prophets:

 

"All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you , do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Matthew 7:12)

 

So you believe that the "Golden Rule" is what Jesus came to teach? You believe that this is the law of Christ? Perhaps let's look at this passage in context...

Matt. 7:12-14

The Golden Rule

¹² “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

¹³ “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. ¹⁴ For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Question: Do you believe that salvation is through grace or works?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

 

It is not the written Torah that the Scribes changed. What was changed from the Torah was the "oral law".

 

 

Hello nebula. 

 

The prophet Jeremiah said this:

" ... My people know not the judgment of Yahweh. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us ? Certainly has changed into a lie the lying pen of the scribes" (Jeremiah 8:7-9) .

 

Jeremiah says nothing of the oral law. Jeremiah refers to the written law, because Jeremiah talk about the lying pen of the scribes.

 

Again, what translation are you using?

This passage in Jeremiah 8 clearly points to idolatry of Israel and the consequences for their sin. You are taking this passage out of context.

This is what Jeremiah 8:7-9 says... ESV

It is talking in context about people who thought they were wise but instead twisted God's words making them into lies.

 

Jer. 8:7-9

⁸ “How can you say, ‘We are wise,

    and the law of the Lord is with us’?

But behold, the lying pen of the scribes

    has made it into a lie.

⁹ The wise men shall be put to shame;

    they shall be dismayed and taken;

behold, they have rejected the word of the Lord,

    so what wisdom is in them?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

 

 

What scripture do you have that states Jesus came to abolish the law?

 

 

 

 

Gal 3:1-4:1

3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain —  if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. 10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, " The righteous man shall live by faith. " 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us —  for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree" —  14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made. 20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

 

 

This whole chapter is relevant to understand the bold part.    The law was a teacher or tutor until Jesus came, but we're no longer under the tutor if we are under the saving grace of Christ who has a different set of things for us to live by.

 

so,though He did not abolish the law, he made it none effect for those of us who follow him so to speak.   for those who do not declare his lordship or believe, the law is still valid and condemns them.   i might add though that the law never gave life to anyone, if it was capable of doing so there would have been no reason for Jesus to die.

 

 

I agree even though we may not be under the judgement of the law - it is not abolished. I agree the law still points to the sin of every person and their need for a Savior.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean "a different set of things for us to live by..."? I would say Jesus explained the law further. Whereas peoples expectation through the law was to try to keep it entirely Jesus explained people's need for the Holy Spirit for God to overlook our shortcomings. What do you think?

Did God through Christ abolish the moral law?

I agree that there is no salvation in the law just condemnation as God's standard is perfection.

God bless,

GE

[other one]

 

 

I agree even though we may not be under the judgment of the law - it is not abolished. I agree the law still points to the sin of every person and their need for a Savior.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean "a different set of things for us to live by..."? I would say Jesus explained the law further. Whereas peoples expectation through the law was to try to keep it entirely Jesus explained people's need for the Holy Spirit for God to overlook our shortcomings. What do you think?

Did God through Christ abolish the moral law?

I agree that there is no salvation in the law just condemnation as God's standard is perfection.

God bless,

GE

 

We are not under any of the old testament laws at all.  no he did not abolish the old law, it just does not pertain to us in any fashion.

 

What he did was give us two new commandments, three if you count being spreading the gospel and baptizing people.

 

The ten commandments demand that we fear God and do the things out of fear.  Jesus demands that we love God with all our heart and soul.  We are not only to not murder and steal mess with our neighbors things including his wife, but we are to love him/her and care for them if needed.

basically Jesus took the physical ten commandments and spiritualised them so we would not only not break the ten commandments, but we would change to the point that we would not even want to.

 

basically the old commandments were designed for creating people complying out of fear and punishment, and Jesus's ways are out of mercy and love.  in my 66 years I have experienced several churches that drifted into legalism and killed the spirit of the church and people drifted away.....

 

I sort of cringe when people tell me that we are supposed to keep the commandments given to moses, because they fall short of a born again Christian's expected lifestyle.

 

You could live your entire lifetime never breaking one single commandment and still go to hell.

 

Loving your neighbor didn't come across in Moses's day in the big ten....  and according to what I read in Matthew there are folks going to hell for that very reason.

 

Don't misunderstand that I would tell people they had a free trip to heaven if they believe and can basically do what they want, for in reality being a Christian is a much narrower walk than being a Jew.    the big difference is that we have the Holy Spirit within us to give us help and direction.   Now if I could just learn to always pay attention.....  but, we're working on it.

[Guest]

basically the old commandments were designed for creating people complying out of fear and punishment, and Jesus's ways are out of mercy and love.  in my 66 years I have experienced several churches that drifted into legalism and killed the spirit of the church and people drifted away.....

 

 

Me

 

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:26-28

 

Too

 

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. John 15:12

 

~

 

The Old

 

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Deuteronomy 6:4-5

 

Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Leviticus 19:18

 

Was Never

 

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. Mark 12:29-31

 

Abolished

 

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-19

 

~

 

And When Does A Jew

 

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:8-11

 

Ever Cease To Be A Jew

 

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

 

Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

 

Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

 

It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. Exodus 31:12-18

[Porque77]

 

The law that Jesus came not to abolish is the Law of the Gospel

 

 

This is where you go wrong. When Jesus referred to the laws, He was referring to the Torah. There was no Gospels yet

 

 

Hello OneLight.  The Gospel was announced since ancient, as say the scriptures:

 

"Moreover, brethren, I would not have ye ignorant of how all of our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea. And all ate the same spiritual meat, and all drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ".  (1 Corinthians 10:1-4)

 

^"For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?.........  For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it".  (Hebrews 3:16 - 4:2)

 

"And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?" (Romans 10:15-16)

 

 

He had not done His works which is what the Gospels consist of.

What scripture do you have that states Jesus came to abolish the law?

 

 

Jesucristo in the Gospel teached us the true Law which was given to Moses.

And you can see in the Gospel that Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament, as the precepts of practice "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", the precepts of killing people by stoning,  to make wars, and all precepts who sent men to hurt or kill people.

 

You can see Matthew 5:21-48, John 8:1-11 and the whole context of the Gospel, which teaches us to be merciful and forgiving.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Porque77

[Porque77]

The law that Jesus came not to abolish is the Law of the Gospel

 

 

 

This is where you go wrong. When Jesus referred to the laws, He was referring to the Torah. There was no Gospels yet,

 

Jesus Christ is God and his commandments are the commandments of God. He was God and was the one who gave the commandments to Moses. Then, the Gospel commandments are the commandments that Moses really received.

The commandments of the Old Testament are other thing, because they don't keep perfectly the commandments of God as taught by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ abolished the commandments of the Old Testament.

 

The true Law of God taught by Jesus Christ

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7:12)

 

What God wants is the mercy

 

"If you had known what this means, I want mercy and not sacrifice, you wouldn’t have condemned the innocent" (Matthew 12:7)

 

Jesus commanded to forgive seventy times seven:

"Then Peter came and said: Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Till seven? Jesus said: I tell you, not seven times, but seventy times seven" (Matthew 18 :21-22)

 

Jesus speaks to the pharisees about the Law

 

"When the Pharisees heard that Jesus had left the Sadducees speechless, they met together. One of them, a legal expert, tested him. Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? He replied, “You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your being, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You must love your neighbor as you love yourself. All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commands” (Matthew 22:34-40)

 

Jesus teaches to a rich man, the precepts of the Law

 

"And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19:16-22)

 

These are the commandments of the Gospel, which are very different to the commandments of the Old Testament, for all the commandments of the Gospel are merciful, but many Old Testament commandments commands death sentences, wars and slavery.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Porque77

[OneLight]

The law that Jesus came not to abolish is the Law of the Gospel

 

 

This is where you go wrong. When Jesus referred to the laws, He was referring to the Torah. There was no Gospels yet

 

Hello OneLight.  The Gospel was announced since ancient, as say the scriptures:

 

"Moreover, brethren, I would not have ye ignorant of how all of our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea. And all ate the same spiritual meat, and all drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ".  (1 Corinthians 10:1-4)

 

^"For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?.........  For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it".  (Hebrews 3:16 - 4:2)

 

"And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?" (Romans 10:15-16)

I am not sure why you would present the Epistles as proof to the Gospels being taught before Christ ministry??? When Jesus spoke of the law and prophets, He was speaking of those on the OT, not the NT.

 

 

He had not done His works which is what the Gospels consist of.

What scripture do you have that states Jesus came to abolish the law?

 

Jesucristo in the Gospel teached us the true Law which was given to Moses.

And you can see in the Gospel that Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament, as the precepts of practice "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", the precepts of killing people by stoning,  to make wars, and all precepts who sent men to hurt or kill people.

 

You can see Matthew 5:21-48, John 8:1-11 and the whole context of the Gospel, which teaches us to be merciful and forgiving.

Jesus explained the laws, not abolished them. He fulfilled the law, not abolished them. All the scripture you brought forth is proof that He explained the true meaning of certain laws, even about judging others.

I had asked that you provide scripture that states Jesus abolished the law, any of them. Will you provide this or are you willing to admit that what you bring is your personal theology?