The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

 

But that does not mean we have to be removed off the earth like the Left-Behind books and movies in order to not suffer God's wrath upon the wicked at that moment.

 

What I see on that day of The Lord is how the change at the twinkling of an eye will affect everyone on earth, a sudden change to the spiritual body for those in Christ, and as a plague upon the wicked like Zech.14 shows, coming at an instant like Isaiah shows. This is why it is impossible for me to believe that any peoples will continue into the thousand years with their flesh body, because like Peter said (2 Pet.3:10), God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off this earth on that day (see end of Heb.12 also). The Isaiah 25 Scripture is about God removing the veil cast over all peoples on that day, as that's where Apostle Paul was pulling from about death being swallowed up.

 

 

 

I think that would be a discussion for a millenium thread, not a rapture thread. For some reason the translators overdramatised the language of 2 Peter 3 when compared to the Greek, and some of the words , even in English usage, have changed their meaning. When we read words such as "elements", "heavens", "earth" ... these words had different meanings during the KJV times compared to now. But I do agree with you man's works are destroyed (buildings, factories etc)

 

 

You mean you don't believe the "day of the Lord" events and Apostle Paul's "last trump" change at the twinkling of an eye has anything to do with the 'harpazo' event, what some call the 'rapture'?

 

 

I do believe they are all associated. The rapture is the resurrection in my eyes (the harpazo event), and occurs at the twinkling of an eye. So we agree there.

 

The word "elements" in the Greek of 2 Pet.3:10 does not mean literal material matter, it means an ordinal of time, like a world age. The subject of world ages, and God's previous destruction of that, and the coming new heavens and a new earth, is what that chapter is about. Peter linked the time of the "day of the Lord" with God destroying that "elements" by His consuming fire. The OT prophets provide the rest, because will involve a burning of the works of man off this earth, like how God destroyed man works off the earth with the flood of Noah's day. That's why 2 Pet.3 is talking about a previous flood upon this earth to destroy a previous world age.

 

 

I believe the land does change, and so does the atmosphere. (a new land and new sky). And all the works of man will be destroyed (buildings/kingdoms/empires/systems/factories/ships/religions etc). I believe the OT prophets confirm that some nations and the sinful live on during that new age (Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Joel 2/3, Zechariah 12-14, Ezekiel 40-48, Isaiah 65 etc etc ). But I feel this is a topic for another thread.

[Salty]

 

 

 

 

 

But that does not mean we have to be removed off the earth like the Left-Behind books and movies in order to not suffer God's wrath upon the wicked at that moment.

 

What I see on that day of The Lord is how the change at the twinkling of an eye will affect everyone on earth, a sudden change to the spiritual body for those in Christ, and as a plague upon the wicked like Zech.14 shows, coming at an instant like Isaiah shows. This is why it is impossible for me to believe that any peoples will continue into the thousand years with their flesh body, because like Peter said (2 Pet.3:10), God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off this earth on that day (see end of Heb.12 also). The Isaiah 25 Scripture is about God removing the veil cast over all peoples on that day, as that's where Apostle Paul was pulling from about death being swallowed up.

 

 

 

I think that would be a discussion for a millenium thread, not a rapture thread. For some reason the translators overdramatised the language of 2 Peter 3 when compared to the Greek, and some of the words , even in English usage, have changed their meaning. When we read words such as "elements", "heavens", "earth" ... these words had different meanings during the KJV times compared to now. But I do agree with you man's works are destroyed (buildings, factories etc)

 

 

You mean you don't believe the "day of the Lord" events and Apostle Paul's "last trump" change at the twinkling of an eye has anything to do with the 'harpazo' event, what some call the 'rapture'?

 

 

I do believe they are all associated. The rapture is the resurrection in my eyes (the harpazo event), and occurs at the twinkling of an eye. So we agree there.

 

The word "elements" in the Greek of 2 Pet.3:10 does not mean literal material matter, it means an ordinal of time, like a world age. The subject of world ages, and God's previous destruction of that, and the coming new heavens and a new earth, is what that chapter is about. Peter linked the time of the "day of the Lord" with God destroying that "elements" by His consuming fire. The OT prophets provide the rest, because will involve a burning of the works of man off this earth, like how God destroyed man works off the earth with the flood of Noah's day. That's why 2 Pet.3 is talking about a previous flood upon this earth to destroy a previous world age.

 

 

I believe the land does change, and so does the atmosphere. (a new land and new sky). And all the works of man will be destroyed (buildings/kingdoms/empires/systems/factories/ships/religions etc). I believe the OT prophets confirm that some nations and the sinful live on during that new age (Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Joel 2/3, Zechariah 12-14, Ezekiel 40-48, Isaiah 65 etc etc ). But I feel this is a topic for another thread.

 

 

Good, because that's now back to the topic I spoke of in my earlier post with mention of the Left-behind books, which is about the topic of a rapture per this thread.

 

I do not believe... anyone in a flesh body will continue in their flesh after that event on the day of The Lord, simply because of what I referenced from Apostle Paul in 1 Cor.15, and from Isaiah 25 where he was pulling those ideas from. I believe all still alive on earth on that day will be changed at the twinkling of an eye.

 

Isaiah 25:6-9

⁶ And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

⁷ And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

⁸ He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.

⁹ And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."

 

I very strongly believe that "face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations", is about the change of all... peoples still alive on earth to the "spiritual body" Paul taught, and it will occur at the "twinkling of an eye" on the day of Christ's coming like Paul showed in 1 Cor.15.

 

But I've not heard you speak about any of those things I mention there.

[ARGOSY]

 

Good, because that's now back to the topic I spoke of in my earlier post with mention of the Left-behind books, which is about the topic of a rapture per this thread.

 

I do not believe... anyone in a flesh body will continue in their flesh after that event on the day of The Lord, simply because of what I referenced from Apostle Paul in 1 Cor.15, and from Isaiah 25 where he was pulling those ideas from. I believe all still alive on earth on that day will be changed at the twinkling of an eye.

 

Isaiah 25:6-9

⁶ And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

⁷ And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

⁸ He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.

⁹ And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."

 

I very strongly believe that "face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations", is about the change of all... peoples still alive on earth to the "spiritual body" Paul taught, and it will occur at the "twinkling of an eye" on the day of Christ's coming like Paul showed in 1 Cor.15.

 

But I've not heard you speak about any of those things I mention there.

 

 

Yes I believe the church will be raptured and at that resurrection I believe death will end, but only for the saved , we will receive our resurrection bodies. I believe the veil will be lifted over the nations, at the moment we live by faith because God hasn't clearly revealed Himself even though He is able to do so. But after the second coming, the veil will be lifted, God will be revealed to all nations. Although I do see where you are getting your view from, I believe there are too many OT verses that confirm the continued existence of mortal nations to introduce a view of "immortal" bodies for all after the second coming.

 

Also, sometimes the OT prophets, being so far removed from future events, would see some future events as closer together. As we get closer to the second coming, the detail becomes more apparent to us, that there is a millenium separating the resurrection of the righteous from the resurrection of the unrighteous.

[Salty]

 

 

Good, because that's now back to the topic I spoke of in my earlier post with mention of the Left-behind books, which is about the topic of a rapture per this thread.

 

I do not believe... anyone in a flesh body will continue in their flesh after that event on the day of The Lord, simply because of what I referenced from Apostle Paul in 1 Cor.15, and from Isaiah 25 where he was pulling those ideas from. I believe all still alive on earth on that day will be changed at the twinkling of an eye.

 

Isaiah 25:6-9

⁶ And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

⁷ And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

⁸ He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.

⁹ And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."

 

I very strongly believe that "face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations", is about the change of all... peoples still alive on earth to the "spiritual body" Paul taught, and it will occur at the "twinkling of an eye" on the day of Christ's coming like Paul showed in 1 Cor.15.

 

But I've not heard you speak about any of those things I mention there.

 

 

Yes I believe the church will be raptured and at that resurrection I believe death will end, but only for the saved , we will receive our resurrection bodies. I believe the veil will be lifted over the nations, at the moment we live by faith because God hasn't clearly revealed Himself even though He is able to do so. But after the second coming, the veil will be lifted, God will be revealed to all nations. Although I do see where you are getting your view from, I believe there are too many OT verses that confirm the continued existence of mortal nations to introduce a view of "immortal" bodies for all after the second coming.

 

Also, sometimes the OT prophets, being so far removed from future events, would see some future events as closer together. As we get closer to the second coming, the detail becomes more apparent to us, that there is a millenium separating the resurrection of the righteous from the resurrection of the unrighteous.

 

 

Well just have to disagree on those points then, because I see this present type of body, an flesh body, being over when our Lord Jesus comes, and that for everyone, both the just and the unjust (John 5:28-29 still stands as support for both types of resurrections on that day of Christ's coming. I see Rev.20:5 as being about the death of the spirit with soul they are still subject to during Christ's thousand years, what Rev.20 called the "second death".)

[Montana Marv]

Inchrist,

Start here. What does God mean when he says, "no wrath is appointed unto you...."

Spock

 

One needs to see the whole verse;  1 These 5:9 - For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to received salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

There is a connection between two phrases "but"

 

The question should be, who is to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.  The answer, those who do not receive His wrath.  This verse was just as personal to those living in 51 AD, as those living in1,000 AD as those living in the 1920's.  Christ chose us, He appointed us, He redeemed us, He sanctified us, He justified us.  Why so we would not be sent to the Lake of Fire.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

Yet, just when... is the time of God's wrath upon the wicked? Apostle Paul answered that too in 1 Thess.5.

 

1 Thess.5:2-4

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

³ For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

 

 

When is that time of "Peace and safety" that the deceived will be saying?

 

Notice the time of the "sudden destruction cometh upon them" is right after that time of "Peace and safety".

 

The peace and safety is about the "great tribulation" time our Lord Jesus taught. For the deceived it's gonna' be great for them, because all their woes and problems will be taken care of by the pseudo-Christ, thinking he is our Lord Jesus. How will it be in that time for those of us who refuse to bow in false worship to that pseudo-Christ?

 

That short time of "Peace and safety" for those who will make a stand for Christ will be the time when the brother shall betray brother, the father the son, and children shall rise up against their parents to cause them to be put to death (Mark 13:12-13). If you stand in Christ Jesus for that time, you will be persecuted, for the tribulation is upon the undeceived Faithful to Christ. It is the time of Satan's wrath upon God's remnant that will refuse to bow to that false one who comes first.

 

But God's Wrath is after that, when our Lord Jesus comes on that "day of the Lord", and His wrath is only upon the wicked and deceived that will have persecuted His elect saints during the tribulation.

[Marilyn C]

Hi inchrist,

 

`Peace & Safety,` ay. Well the Greek also includes - safety, security. Now where do we hear those words today? Yes the UN & the `big powers.` Actually the UN`s mandate (by the big powers) is exactly that - Peace, Security (Safety) & disarmament.

 

They can speak all they like of `Peace & Safety,` but one day there will be `sudden destruction,` for the Lord will unleash His retribution on the rebellious.

[Salty]

Salty

 

I dont think your reading the verse right, there will be great persecution and wars within the Tribulation and Great Tribulation. There will be no such thing as a "TIME" of peace and safety

 

The phrase "Peace and Safety" is a slogan it comes from Pax Romana meaning Roman Peace. Inotherwords “Peace and safety” were slogans of the Roman Empire back in the day and it will be the same slogan used during the Tribulations. The Romans promised that if you let them rule you, they would provide peace and safety for you. You just have to give Rome your allegiance and they will provide you with peace and safety.

 

In 1 Thess.5 Paul's subject is the events of "the day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night". It wasn't about some event of the Romans 2,000 years ago.

 

In Matt.24 our Lord Jesus was specific that as we hear of wars and rumors of wars, those things must come to pass, but the end is not yet (Matt.24:6). Per the Book of Daniel the "little horn"-"vile person" is to come to power using peace and craft will prosper in his hand.

 

On today's political level, it's like what Marilyn showed, the plans for the coming one world government is a time of world peace on earth. This is why Rev.13 4 asks, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

[Salty]

 

 

 

The slogan is borrowed from the Romans

 

As per Daniel the vile person as you claim will come to power using peace and craft will prosper in his hand, your modifying the verse by the way.

 

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy ( I dont see peace being mentioned  here to even indicate a political peace, this is your conjecture, perhaps its his WAR Policies) also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 

So if we take your view by peace will destroy....How does one destroy something by peace? 

 

The meaning  this verse conveys Antichrists successful invasions into nations...with few complications. Indeed, the previous verse reads: "He shall destroy many," and Isaiah 10:6-15 tells us why this proud and wicked man succeeds for a time in all he does, for it is God who prospers him.

 

 

The idea of that being a Roman slogan is irrelevant, because Apostle Paul is who said it in relation to what the deceived will saying just prior to the "day of the Lord" coming, which is what his subject was there in 1 Thess.5.

 

And surely we both know Christ's second coming has NOT... happened yet today, right? Or do you hold to the Full Preterist ideas that Christ's second coming was back in the Apostle's days, which is error?

 

I am modifying nothing!

 

How is it you cannot understand that destroying using 'peace' is done... by using politics?!? How can you say that is my conjecture? Let's put that section of verses out here for all to see instead of pick and choosing.

 

Dan.8:23-25

²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

²⁴ And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

²⁵ And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 

We cannot just try and separate these Dan.8 Scriptures apart from the events about the "vile person" in Daniel 11, because they are the same one that brings an end of the daily sacrifices and causes the transgression of abomination in the temple in Jerusalem. Likewise, we cannot just throw away the NT warnings about that false one coming to exalt himself in the temple in Jerusalem as God (2 Thess.2:4).

 

So in light of The Scriptures, how will that false one 'magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many'? The how is right there in front of you. He is to exalt himself in place of God, to be worshiped as God, and by that will destroy many, which is about spiritual destruction through deception, not physical destruction. Deception was our Lord Jesus' main warning for the end per His Olivet Discourse.

[Salty]

 

 

You might want to run your theory passed Isaiah 10:6-15 first

 

The Hebrew word shal-vaw is used for peace in Dan.8:25, which is used for the ideas of prosperity, peace, abundance, quiteness in other Scriptures.

 

But Dan.8:25 is not the last word on the matter, Christ's Olivet Discourse and His Revelation directly relate also, as does Apostle Paul's "Peace and safety" the deceived will be saying for the tribulation.

 

So once again, as on many threads on forums like these, those who try to slice and dice Scripture to make it mean something entirely different than God's Word as whole declares, are shown to be faulty and lacking in their understanding.