The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[Marilyn C]

Morning Salty,

 

I do not believe that it is prophesied that the `power of God`s people would wain for the end,` as you said. If you mean the Body of Christ, it is the Lord Himself that is building & maturing us till we come to `the unity of the Faith` (Eph. 4: 13) & we are being led into all truth by His Holy Spirit (John 16: 13) that will accomplish that. We will be `overcomers,` that draw on `the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe,` (Eph. 1: 19)

 

Don`t be discouraged but look to the Lord who will accomplish this.

 

Also the inheritances of Israel & the Body of Christ are different. Both groups are founded in Christ but the inheritances, the purposes in God`s great kingdom are different.

 

Israel - `Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.` (Matt. 5: 5)

 

The Body of Christ - `to obtain an inheritance .......reserved in heaven...`(1 peter 1: 4)

 

God has different groups ruling in different areas of His kingdom & all through the rulership of Christ. (1 Cor. 15: 15: 20 - 28)

[Marilyn C]

Yes `preach` it inchrist....

 

I am so pleased to hear another person proclaim the truth about the Body - the Body of Christ & Israel - the Bride. Too long have people been deceived, which has led to all sorts of confusion about God`s word & His purposes for the Body. And really this false doctrine, has gone to the extremes, which error always does, that young people are now being taught to have romantic experiences with Jesus. I can`t even imagine what that does to impressionable young men.

 

This false doctrine is not, as you well said, based on a body of teaching like other great doctrines we have & believe. And nowhere does God say that the Church is the Bride. But as I have said before I do feel for those who have been taught this, but I would say that we really need to `accurately handle `God`s word otherwise we will be led astray.

[Salty]

Morning Salty,

 

I do not believe that it is prophesied that the `power of God`s people would wain for the end,` as you said. If you mean the Body of Christ, it is the Lord Himself that is building & maturing us till we come to `the unity of the Faith` (Eph. 4: 13) & we are being led into all truth by His Holy Spirit (John 16: 13) that will accomplish that. We will be `overcomers,` that draw on `the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe,` (Eph. 1: 19)

 

Don`t be discouraged but look to the Lord who will accomplish this.

 

Also the inheritances of Israel & the Body of Christ are different. Both groups are founded in Christ but the inheritances, the purposes in God`s great kingdom are different.

 

Israel - `Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.` (Matt. 5: 5)

 

The Body of Christ - `to obtain an inheritance .......reserved in heaven...`(1 peter 1: 4)

 

God has different groups ruling in different areas of His kingdom & all through the rulership of Christ. (1 Cor. 15: 15: 20 - 28)

 

Believe whatever you want. But I will stay in God's Word as written:

 

Daniel 7

²⁴ And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

²⁵ And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

Rev.13

⁴ And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

⁵ And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

⁶ And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

⁷ And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Salty,

 

Yes we all want to believe God`s word. Now what you have written is God`s word written to Israel, they were called `saints,` & they were promised by God to rule over the nations. The Body of Christ, as I`m sure you would well know is NEVER mentioned in the Old Testament for it was a mystery till God gave the Apostle Paul the understanding to reveal it.

[Salty]

 

Also the inheritances of Israel & the Body of Christ are different. Both groups are founded in Christ but the inheritances, the purposes in God`s great kingdom are different.

 

Israel - `Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.` (Matt. 5: 5)

 

The Body of Christ - `to obtain an inheritance .......reserved in heaven...`(1 peter 1: 4)

 

God has different groups ruling in different areas of His kingdom & all through the rulership of Christ. (1 Cor. 15: 15: 20 - 28)

 

When Jesus returns on the Day of The Lord, and God's consuming fire burns mans works off this earth per 2 Pet.3:10 and end of Heb.12, we all... will be changed and in resurrection type bodies, with the vail of this present earthly world removed (Isa.25; 1 Cor.15), and the heavenly revealed to ALL... peoples (Rev.1:7). Christ's reign with His elect will be here, on earth, not up in the clouds. God's River and the tree of life will be here, on earth, during that Millennial time also (Ezek.47; Rev.22:14-15). In that time, death will be swallowed up for all... peoples. The separation between His sheep and the goats will be on earth, not between earth and Heaven, because the heavenly will then be revealed... on the earth, same time and space.

[Salty]

Hi Salty,

 

Yes we all want to believe God`s word. Now what you have written is God`s word written to Israel, they were called `saints,` & they were promised by God to rule over the nations. The Body of Christ, as I`m sure you would well know is NEVER mentioned in the Old Testament for it was a mystery till God gave the Apostle Paul the understanding to reveal it.

 

That idea is not correct, is that from SDA?

 

Apostle Paul proves that idea very wrong in Galatians 3 and Romans 5, and it is further disproved in Isaiah 54 about enlarging the tent to include believing Gentiles, and also by Paul again in Romans 9 when He quoted Hosea to the Gentiles, when Hosea prophecy was given to Israel. There's actually a whole lot of Scripture which proves your idea wrong, even with Christ's Messages to the seven Churches in Asia. And need I mention again what Paul said to the Gentiles in Ephesians 2 about their coming into God's promises and covenants of the "commonwealth of Israel"?

[Marilyn C]

Hi Salty,

 

Too many topics on your posts but will address one. Yes God does talk about the Gentiles (nations) in the Old Testament but never reveals the Body of Christ. When Gentiles come into the Body of Christ they are no longer `of the nations,` but of the Body. The promise that the Apostle Paul talks about in Eph. 2: 12 & Gal. 3: 22 as you brought up deals with  -

 

`...the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.`  (Gal. 3: 22)

 

The promise of righteousness in Jesus is given to all groups but their inheritances are different.

The Body of Christ does not have the land of Israel that has been promised to them as their inheritance, ours is a different inheritance.

[Salty]

Hi Salty,

 

Too many topics on your posts but will address one. Yes God does talk about the Gentiles (nations) in the Old Testament but never reveals the Body of Christ. When Gentiles come into the Body of Christ they are no longer `of the nations,` but of the Body. The promise that the Apostle Paul talks about in Eph. 2: 12 & Gal. 3: 22 as you brought up deals with  -

 

`...the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.`  (Gal. 3: 22)

 

The promise of righteousness in Jesus is given to all groups but their inheritances are different.

The Body of Christ does not have the land of Israel that has been promised to them as their inheritance, ours is a different inheritance.

 

Where you reasoning is in error is with thinking that God's Church in the OT has no connection with Christ's Church.

 

1 Cor.10

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

² And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

³ And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

⁴ And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

⁵ But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

 

When The Lord appeared to Abraham at his tent door per Gen.18, who do you think that was with the other two men?

 

Who do you think Melchizedek that met Abraham, blessed him, and gave him "bread and wine", and Abraham tithed to him, truly was in Genesis? (see Heb.7).

 

Like I've shown before, even per Apostle Paul in Gal.3 and Rom.4 about Abraham, God's Promised Salvation was given first, 430 years before the law and Old Covenant. That Promise by Faith was always first. Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness, the righteousness by Faith, and not of the law nor by seed.

 

Apostle Paul made no 'seed' distinction concerning that Faith, nor inheritance as heirs:

 

Gal.3

²⁶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

²⁷ For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

²⁸ There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

²⁹ And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[Salty]

Salty,

You making this too easy for me

Why would God send a prophet called Samuel during a period where the Israelites are ALREADY in the promised land under King David and tell them he will a point them a place, when it's ALREADY BEEN APPOINTED. Why would God give a Prophecy when it's ALREADY BEEN FULFILLED?

Further please concentrate on the following scripture

Isaiah 10:22:

“For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return and the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.”

 

I see you're still wanting to disregard the Scriptures that I posted. Why should I continue when you just skip over them like that in favor of one or two verses that only appear... to support your point of view?

[Persuaded]

Persuaded,

All you've given me was conjecture. Head and body can not marry one another it's already one. It's sounds completely strange that the head marries the body to form one flesh in its literal and metaphorical meaning...what an odd teaching

Jesus did not teach that his body Is the bride nor did Peter.

In fact my challenge to you was to find my anywhere in scripture that the church is called the bride of christ...The church has been called the sons of God and the body of christ but never ever in any of the scripture has been called the bride of christ.

Here's the problem with this false doctrine:-

Firstly you ignored biblical scripture telling you who the bride is, new jerusalem. Again you have not addressed this issue and continually ignore it and I'll continually repeat it until you address this issue.

Secondly you ignore

Rev 19:7 says: "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

How on earth has the church made herself ready, without spot or blemishes?

You single handedly take away grace with this church is the bride doctrine.

You see, being perfect is a gift and it is a gift we already have. Sorry, but the last time I read 2 Cor. 5:21, Romans 3:26, 1 Cor 1:30, and 2 Cor 9:10 it says we have been made the righteousness of God already. We are already without "spot or blemish". We are already perfect and righteous. Jesus can return now if God tells Him to. He can return at anytime. More importantly is the fact that if we are made righteous through the blood of Jesus then it takes away from us "the works" that we will have to do to become perfect. It makes it all about grace again and not something we do on our own. It makes it all about his ability to save us and His ability working in us to give us the power to overcome sin in our own lives. This is the fundamental reason Jesus gave His life for us. "The bride" teaching removes the fundamental purpose in the plan of salvation. Our salvation becomes about works and about making ourselves perfect and ready. Grace is denied.

Jesus dying on the tree, made me with out spot and blemish.

One way that we are the body is by becoming one flesh with Him. The marriage is the method, the mechanism that makes us His body, by being joined with Him as one flesh.

 

 [Eph 5:30, 31 KJV] For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

 

I explained a reasonable view of the New Jerusalem being a reference to its inhabitants- those who will dwell there, because it makes no sense to call a city itself a bride. If you think that the marriage to the New Jerusalem isn't a metaphor but that it somehow describes a relationship between Christ and the bricks and geometry of a physical city, then we'll just disagree on that. Since the scripture isn't explicit as to the exact meaning of the marriage to the New Jerusalem, it's reasonable to use the rest of scripture to see what message John meant to convey. I think Marilyn sees Israel as the bride, I see big problems with that. So another possibility is the church as the bride, which fits scripture, and the concept of a ruler from Israel taking on a gentile bride is foreshadowed throughout the OT- Isaac, Joseph, Boaz are a few, each themselves a well-recognized type or model of Christ.

 

NT elements I can quickly think of that do have parallels in a Jewish wedding:

Payment of the price of betrothal, His death

Sharing of the cup

Leaving to prepare a place in His Father's house

We are entreated to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior (this is getting ready for the marriage -it has nothing to do with adding to our righteousness)

No man knows the hour when the bridegroom will come for the bride

He announces His coming with a shout and trumpet call

The bride is removed, taken to the Father's house, and then presented to the world in a feast

 

John says Jesus began His ministry at a wedding; He taught with wedding parables; He used many references that make the most sense in the context of a wedding.

 

And, the explicit references by Paul to the church as a bride. I don't see how you and Marilyn dismiss Eph 5 and 2 Cor 11- the alternate interpretations you have given simply don't match what is said in those chapters- I've tried to read them in the way you describe and I can't see a way to make them fit that meaning.

 

So I'm comfortable taking Paul's words as saying what they mean, and taking the "coincidental" but persistent allusions to the wedding as the best framework against which to judge the meaning of the New Jerusalem as being identified by the inhabitants that Paul described.

 

I have never heard anyone advocate that the bride should add to her righteousness. Any that use the bride to teach such are clearly wrong. But, while we are on this earth we can spend our time becoming ready by learning of Him. I think that's what most of us do when we come here...