Biblical support of Eternal Hellfire?

[Guest shiloh357]

 

God is love He will not burn man in a oven forever

Lol, I've never heard it the way you said it, but as you probably read, I'm with you on this one too.

 

Both of you are wrong.   God's is love and it was his love that brings man eternal life so that man doesn't have to live for ever in hell.  But to say that God's love precludes mankind buring for ever in hell simply isn't the case.   Man chooses to spurn God's love and the consequences of hell are what man has chosen and God doesn't circumvent that choice.  

 

When a person chooses continued separation from God, he chooses to reject God's love and chooses to forego any benefits that love affords. God's love isn't in hell. It is the complete and total absence of God's presence.   God's love is not extended in any way shape or form to mankind in hell. There is no mercy, no forgiveness nothing.

[Spock]

God is love He will not burn man in a oven forever

Lol, I've never heard it the way you said it, but as you probably read, I'm with you on this one too.

Both of you are wrong. God's is love and it was his love that brings man eternal life so that man doesn't have to live for ever in hell. But to say that God's love precludes mankind buring for ever in hell simply isn't the case. Man chooses to spurn God's love and the consequences of hell are what man has chosen and God doesn't circumvent that choice.

When a person chooses continued separation from God, he chooses to reject God's love and chooses to forego any benefits that love affords. God's love isn't in hell. It is the complete and total absence of God's presence. God's love is not extended in any way shape or form to mankind in hell. There is no mercy, no forgiveness nothing.

I hear you bro, but I still don't believe the bible teaches immortality is given to everyone. I believe the wicked are annihilated, that is their separation. I don't see them living forever suffering on some planet or wherever you may think, otherwise, that would give them immortality. I also don't see any reason for gods character to keep them around forever in torment. I respect your belief, but I did my research and I'm convinced he'll is not eternal except for the unholy trinity. Rev 20:10) If I am wrong, oh well....... Edited January 1, 2014 by Spock

[Montana Marv]

Rev 20:14 - Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is the Second Death.  If anyone's name was not found written in the book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.   This is eternal separation from God.  God's Love is comfort,  God's wrath is discomfort.  One is either going to be forever with Christ or forever without Christ.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[donfish06]

Of course you will find it.  In the book of Genesis, Adam and Eve enjoyed fellowship with God until Adam ate of forbidden fruit.  From that point on Adam and Eve were trying to hide from God.   God told them that in the day they ate of that fruit, they would die.  Obviously, Adam didn't physically die, but at that point, the fellowship between God and human beings was broken and they were separeted from God in their sin and that has been been the default spiritual condition of man ever since.

 

Adam DID die. 3 different ways you could look at it:

 

1)Before the act in the garden, he was going to live forever. Since he took part with Eve, he lost that. He lost "eternal" (lack of more accurate word) life, thus he died. 

 

2)But even if you don't agree with that, the Bible says that a day is like 1000 yrs and 1000 yrs like a day unto the Lord. Adam did not live past 1000 years, so he did die that "day" (1000 years)

 

3)Gen 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

H3117

יום

yôm

yome

From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

 

 

Day clearly did not have to be a 24 hr span

[Butch5]

shiloh357---Jesus in Rom. 5:12-21 died to restore the broken relationship by reversing the curse of death that Adam brought into the world by His disobedience.   Jesus' obedience satisfied God's justice to sin and the Bible teaches that we can now have a restored relationship with God through Jesus Christ because of the finshed work on the cross.

But we’re not addressing separation we’re addressing death.

Speaking of sinners in Eph. 4:18  Paul refers to them as alienated (separated) from God due to their ignorance and hardness of heart.  That is how sinners stand before God.  They stand separated from God.   But speaking of us as believers, Paul says  back in Eph. 2:1, 5 that we were dead in tresspasses and sins.  That is spiritually death, not physical death.  We are dead in tresspasses and sin, but God who is rich in mercy has made us alive together with Christ.   That is what eternal life is.  Eternal life is the very life of God within us.  We are made spiritually alive by the indwelling, transforming power of the Holy Spirit.

Again, that’s an inference. Paul says nothing at all about being spiritually dead. He simply uses death as a metaphor to explain to the Ephesians their condition in sin without Christ. As a dead man can do nothing about his condition, the sinner can do nothing about his condition in sin without Christ.

In  IICorinthians 5, Paul speaks about how Jesus has reconciled us back into right relationship with God.  We were at enmity with God, separated and out of fellowship with Him, but Paul says this:

For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
2Co 5:14-19

The part I am zeroing in on is that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.   You only reconcile that which is separated from you.  Reconciliation speaks to rejoining of two people who are apart from each other.  The Bible describes our separation from God as enmity.  We are enemies of God in our default spiritual condition and Jesus brings reconciliation because of the finished work of the cross.

But again this is separation not death.
 

That is some very sloppy exegesis.

1. The Bible doesn't say that God's spirit is in every living thing.  That sounds closer to neo-paganism than anything else.  God gives life to every living thing, but His Spirit is not in every living thing. 

2.  The ONLY living things the Bible says that God spirit indwells on this earth is born again believers.   God is not living inside dogs and cats and pigs.

3.   The passage in Job is saying that if God sets His heart against man, if God were to gather his (man's) spirit and breath man will die.  The "all flesh" is not refering to every living creature man or beast.  That is isn't focus sense it is simply God setting himself against man, not every creature.   You are not reading the passage correctly.

I’ve already provided evidence from the Scriptures.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:18-21 KJV)
Solomon said that man and beast all have “One” spirit. It’s clear from the creation account that that spirit is God’s. So, If God retrieves that spirit all flesh will die. That seems pretty clear.
 

The problem here is that you act as if this is all the Bible has to say on the matter, as if this passage contains all of the truth needed for this issue, and it doesn't.  Besides, this is talking about physical death, not man's spiritual condition before God.  The NT teaches that man is spiritually alienated and dead in tresspasses and sins and that he has to be brought back to God and made alive spiritually through Christ.  That is what salvation is all about. It's about spritual life given to those who were  previously dead in sin.

However, you didn’t give any additional Scripture. I’ll have to assume you haven’t found anything that would change what I posted. Yes, the passage is speaking of physical death because that’s the only kind of death there is. As I said, the idea of spiritual death cannot be made from the Scriptures. The idea that man is a spirit that lives in a body is “Not” a biblical concept it stems from Greek Philosophy, namely Plato. Man’s creation is clearly shown in Genesis. It is a body formed from the dust and given life by the breath/spirit of God.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

Notice that a body and the breath of life became a living soul. A soul consists of a body and the breath of life, nothing more. God’s breath/spirit doesn’t die that leaves only the body to die thus there is only physical death. You won’t find anything in Scripture that teaches any other spirit that “IS” a man. There is nothing. Man consists of two things, a body, and God’s breath/spirit.

As I have shown we are separated (out of fellowship) with God through sin.  I think you are trying to define "separation" from a physical perspective and I am using "separation" from a theological persepctive.  You are not differentiating between the physical life and breath that God gives to everyone and the spiritual life that we only get through Jesus, that comes when our spirits are made alive in Christ.

I’ve shown several times that there is no spirit in man other than God’s. I don’t know where you see a spiritual life other than God’s.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Butch5

[gdemoss]

God is love He will not burn man in a oven forever

 

The same God who is love flooded the entire world killing all man and beast in whom their was breath of life to save eight people alive but you think he would not eternally separate the wicked ones from the righteous?  God is Love but we would do well to seek to understand what Love is.

[Butch5]

shiloh357---Of course you will find it.  In the book of Genesis, Adam and Eve enjoyed fellowship with God until Adam ate of forbidden fruit.  From that point on Adam and Eve were trying to hide from God.   God told them that in the day they ate of that fruit, they would die.  Obviously, Adam didn't physically die, but at that point, the fellowship between God and human beings was broken and they were separeted from God in their sin and that has been been the default spiritual condition of man ever since.

Even to OT Israel God said through the prophet Isaiah:

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Isa 59:2

 

That doesn’t mean that death is defined as separation. Separation is a result of death not its definition. It seems to me that you’re basing your definition on the Genesis account, yet it says nothing at all about anything spiritual. It seems you’ve inferred spiritual death from the passage because Adam didn’t die physically. Have you considered other ways of looking at the passage?  Actually, the ancient Jewish and early Christian understanding of the passage explains it nicely with having to make inferences or assumptions. The Scriptures tell us that God doesn’t always reckon time the way we do. David said,

 

4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. (Psa 90:4 KJV)

 

Peter quoted this passage when questioned about the Lord’s return.

 

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2Pe 3:8 KJV)

 

Adam died just short of 1000 years, thus he died in the day he ate of the tree. This is an ancient understanding of the passage. Here is a quote from Irenaeus, he was disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John. Irenaeus wrote this about 180 A.D.

 

From this it is clear that the Lord suffered death, in obedience to His Father, upon that day on which Adam died while he disobeyed God. Now he died on the same day in which he did eat. For God said, “In that day on which ye shall eat of it, ye shall die by death.” The Lord, therefore, recapitulating in Himself this day, underwent His sufferings upon the day preceding the Sabbath, that is, the sixth day of the creation, on which day man was created; thus granting him a second creation by means of His passion, which is that [creation] out of death. And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since “a day of the Lord is as a thousand years,” he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin. Whether, therefore, with respect to disobedience, which is death; whether [we consider] that, on account of that, they were delivered over to death, and made debtors to it; whether with respect to [the fact that on] one and the same day on which they ate they also died (for it is one day of the creation); whether [we regard this point], that, with respect to this cycle of days, they died on the day in which they did also eat, that is, the day of the preparation, which is termed “the pure supper,” that is, the sixth day of the feast, which the Lord also exhibited when He suffered on that day; or whether [we reflect] that he (Adam) did not overstep the thousand years, but died within their limit, — it follows that, in regard to all these significations, God is indeed true. For they died who tasted of the tree; and the serpent is proved a liar and a murderer, as the Lord said of him: “For he is a murderer from the beginning, and the truth is not in him.”
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

 

Here is a quote from the “Book of Juibilees” showing the ancient Jewish understanding.

 

29 And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth year [930 A.M.] thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he was the first to be buried in the earth.
30 And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: 'On the day that you eat thereof you shall die.' For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

 

These quotes show both and early Christian and Jewish understanding of the account of the Tree of Knowledge. Therefore there is no need to infer or assuming that the passage is speaking of  anything spiritual especially when nothing in mentioned in the passage.

[enoob57]

 

We know by our New Birth what the S/spiritual difference is... alive or dead

 

Of a truth, brother.  Now a man who has never experienced the New Birth has no frame of reference outside of his carnal mind.  How can such a one understand the truth being spoken of here?  It would seem down right fanciful for us to be discussing such a thing as spiritual death had one never been reborn.  But I say all this knowing that you already know these things.

 

And by the way brother Boone   nice to see you.

 

Hi Gary thank you for that kindness His Spirit bears witness with our spirit

that we are the children of God Rom 8:16-17and here in a unique way than all

else, as it is our hearts, written that we know this about one another. We all have a relationship

by the same format as God has with us -> written format into Spiritual essence of affirmation...

As to your comment (this if error in me you can help me see it)- I have a sense of Rom 1:18-32

that God in His Illustrative Word Format (creation) is enough information for all that have become

in life to see that He exists and in this belief enough to seek Him because of the glory and wonder

of  the witness of His design! As they practice the pleasures of sin and giving glory to the created

thing because of their 1^st birth alone they push away the obvious reality of His Necessary Being

by what 'IS' all around them...

 

Because of this fact above I believe everyone has this sense:

   The unbeliever- a void within them of absence of life and awaiting God's judgment of why 'seeing this'

they denied the witness and went the other way and in time loosing all reality that is was ever there.

   While others sought till they came to His Word and as the answers were so very much the very fit to

what they see in life that they believed the Word and in believing they meet Christ and thus the New Birth

where we ask for that life that we do not have nor deserve and God's Grace becomes our anthem as we

are given it by Promise of The very same Word... this was long winded but  a necessary base for this the point-

 

I believe the draw of God to evident, by the above, to all that have ever been born into this illustrative

format of 1^st beginnings and that the doctrine of total depravity is not one of choicelessness but one of unworhty

choice generated by self centeredness of sin nature and the grace of God, that exceeds all our minds ability,

creating in us a New Birth that can be totally free of self generated issues and live in the total freedom of

Life in God and others.  The Gospel is that Grace and Power to take them back to that time within themselves

where they turned from the reality within and is buried in their personal sins and reestablish that choice

again In The Person of Christ witnessed by The Holy Spirit in Written format...  Love, Steven

[gdemoss]

 

 

We know by our New Birth what the S/spiritual difference is... alive or dead

 

Of a truth, brother.  Now a man who has never experienced the New Birth has no frame of reference outside of his carnal mind.  How can such a one understand the truth being spoken of here?  It would seem down right fanciful for us to be discussing such a thing as spiritual death had one never been reborn.  But I say all this knowing that you already know these things.

 

And by the way brother Boone   nice to see you.

 

Hi Gary thank you for that kindness His Spirit bears witness with our spirit

that we are the children of God Rom 8:16-17and here in a unique way than all

else, as it is our hearts, written that we know this about one another. We all have a relationship

by the same format as God has with us -> written format into Spiritual essence of affirmation...

As to your comment (this if error in me you can help me see it)- I have a sense of Rom 1:18-32

that God in His Illustrative Word Format (creation) is enough information for all that have become

in life to see that He exists and in this belief enough to seek Him because of the glory and wonder

of  the witness of His design! As they practice the pleasures of sin and giving glory to the created

thing because of their 1^st birth alone they push away the obvious reality of His Necessary Being

by what 'IS' all around them...

 

Because of this fact above I believe everyone has this sense:

   The unbeliever- a void within them of absence of life and awaiting God's judgment of why 'seeing this'

they denied the witness and went the other way;

   While others sought till they came to His Word and as the answers were so very much the very fit to

what they see in life that they believed the Word and in believing they meet Christ and thus the New Birth

where we ask for that life that we do not have nor deserve and God's Grace becomes our anthem as we

are given it by Promise of The very same Word... this was long winded but  a necessary base for this the point-

 

I believe the draw of God to evident, by the above, to all that have ever been born into this illustrative

format of 1^st beginnings and that the doctrine of total depravity is not one choicelessness but one of unworhty

choice generated by self centeredness of sin nature and the grace of God, that exceeds all our minds ability,

creating in us a New Birth that can be totally free of self generated issues and live in the total freedom of

Life in God and others.  The Gospel is that Grace and Power to take them back to that time within themselves

where they turned from the reality within and is buried in their personal sins and reestablish that choice

again In The Person of Christ witnessed by The Holy Spirit in Written format...  Love, Steven

 

 

Amen.

 

When I first met you here I could not understand a word you said in truth lol, but today that is different though you have not changed you are no longer speaking in tongues to me but I see the plainness of your speech.  I am in perfect agreement with everything you have said here.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

shiloh357---Jesus in Rom. 5:12-21 died to restore the broken relationship by reversing the curse of death that Adam brought into the world by His disobedience.   Jesus' obedience satisfied God's justice to sin and the Bible teaches that we can now have a restored relationship with God through Jesus Christ because of the finshed work on the cross.

But we’re not addressing separation we’re addressing death.

 

 

 

Yes, and spiritual death is separtion from God.  You are trying to separate the two, but they are two ways of saying the same thing.   The Bible teaches that we are made alive in Christ and we are reconciled back to God through Jesus.  We are placed back into right relationship with God through Jesus.  Two things happened in the Garden of Eden.  Man died spiritually and He was separated from God.   Jesus' sacrificial death is the remedy for both. 

 

Again, that’s an inference. Paul says nothing at all about being spiritually dead. He simply uses death as a metaphor to explain to the Ephesians their condition in sin without Christ. As a dead man can do nothing about his condition, the sinner can do nothing about his condition in sin without Christ.

 

That is no true, and there is no evidence that metphorical imagery is being used.  We were spiritually dead in tresappses and sins.  And we are made alive through Jesus.  It can't get much plainer than that. 

 

But again this is separation not death.

 

The part you are missing is where He says that in Christ we are new creations.  We are not just rejconciled but we are recreated.  The salvation, is a transformational, creative act of God where we are made alive, our dead spirits are renewed and made alive by the Holy Spirit. 

 

Solomon said that man and beast all have “One” spirit. It’s clear from the creation account that that spirit is God’s. So, If God retrieves that spirit all flesh will die. That seems pretty clear.

 

 

Again, that is sloppy exegesis.   To say that God's spirit is inside every person and every beast based on this passage is heretical, in the formal theological sense of the word.    The passage you are referring to does not say that God's spirit is in nonhuman beasts.  YOU are penciling that into the text.  The word for "spirit" is breath. The point is that they all have God as their source of physical life and breath, and that God can take it from them.   It is not saying that God resides in animals. 

 

I’ve shown several times that there is no spirit in man other than God’s. I don’t know where you see a spiritual life other than God’s.

 

If that were true, then all men and beasts would have eternal life.  Jesus claims to be eternal life and the Bible says that Jesus comes to live in us as believers, in the Person of the Holy Spirit.   That means that HE wasn't there before.   It is the change, from death to life; from darkness to light.   The Bible is very clear on that matter.