Tongues Evidence?

[other one]

 

 

Friend, I have tried to be reasonable, and I have asked politely for you to let me speak. However it seems obvious to me that you believe you understand my theology, and my motives far better then I do and therefore you are not prepared to let my words stand on their own merit - so there is nothing more for me to say! there is one thing that is certain, and that is that one of us appears to be somewhat closed minded.

so in other word you can't explain the Knowledge vanishing so we ignore it, if what ever "the perfect one comes" means has already happened as Most Baptist preach, and tongues has ceased then knowledge has vanished, which can't be for Biblical knowledge is to know good and evil, right and wrong. and if Knowledge hasn't vanished then tongues hasn't ceased and if knowledge has vanished we wouldn't know if it is good to speak tongues or not

 

 

I am not ignoring anything. I do not believe tongues have ceased according to 1 Cor 13. I have explained the text you refer to in detail and I have shown why it is not relevant to what I am saying and why it does not (or should not) form part of the cessationist argument. The whole point of what Paul is saying is that these gifts are temporary, and will eventaully pass away, but gifts like love will endure, so long for that enduring gift, and not the passing ones - I can do no more in regards to this straw-man I am afraid.

 

Also, I have asked you cite sources for your claims of what baptist's teach, none has been forthcoming! The reason I am challenging this is because I am a baptist, and I don't teach what you say, and further more no particular baptists do as far as I can tell. The idea that 'baptists' all hold to a single uniform theology seems to be somewhat of an oxymoron to me - we baptists have always been a diverse bunch my friend, some are pelagian, some semi, some Arminian, some Amyraldian some are Calvinists, some are hyper Calvinists, we have different views on the ends days, and so the list goes on - so maybe we have different views on the gifts as well - which is why it is best to let another speak and address the arguments they are making, not the ones we would like them to make because we have heard them before and we have an answer for that one already

 

The simple fact is my friend, that as I see it the onus of proof is not on the cessationist camp, but on the continuationist camp. History demonstrates that tongues have ceased (at least for periods in history), historic theology demonstrates that the vast majority of Bible believing Christians have not viewed tongues as being a gift for their own day, and the biblical gift of tongues (human languages) is not what we usually see today, rather what we usually see is exactly what Paul was trying to stop happening in Corinth (people thinking the spectactular gifts were more important then the mundane [the purposes of 1 Cor 13] and everyone was at it with no order, which is what 1 Cor 14 is all about.) Indeed what we see to day is the 'gift' taking to an extreme beyond that which was happening in Corinth. 

 

Hence I am not a cessationist by tradition or mere conviction - but by evidence (biblical and historic) - I am open to be convinced that tongues continue today, but to be convinced I need to see some contradictory evidence that demonstrates:

 

1) It is the same gift as detailed in the Bible (Acts 2 being the only text that contains such detail)  

2) Serve a revelatory and sign purpose (as tongues did in the early church)(Acts 2, 1 Cor 12-14)

3) Is being demonstrated in line with Paul's didactic teaching on the subject (1 Cor 12-14)

4) It is a gift for the church (not just individual or individual congregations) (Acts 2, 1 Cor 12-14)

 

Anything that cannot address and satisfy all those criteria is not the biblical gift of tongues. Now, to be fair, my level of evidence may be faulty, and that is open for challenge. Too often today though positions are defendedg not by making a positive case for them, but by merely seeking to disprove the oppositions case by any means possible, as if proving your opponent wrong must mean you are right. Now that is relatively easy to do (any old unskilled labourer can destroy in seconds what it took skilled builders years to build). However such a negative argument, does not in reality make a case. As Christians we are called to be edifiers, we are supposed to be building each other up. So, my friend, make your case if you wish to do so

 

I am living proof that prayer tongues have not gone away......   you may accept or reject that as you wish....   I'll  leave that decision to you and the Holy Spirit.

[gdemoss]

As an aside that may conjure debate but is merely meant to provoke thought, I would like to say that before Christ I spoke with an evil tongue of darkened understanding where my words were used to gain selfishly in the world around me as I sought to rule over everyone and everything but after Christ came I began to speak with a new tongue, a tongue that sought to heal and not destroy.  Although I have an opinion today of various tongues spoken of in the bible both of men and of angels, the evidence of speaking with a new tongue has everything to do with the true conversion of the soul won over to the true Christ from that which is against Christ.  Never before a man spake like this they said but I say unto you that many speak as he first did now that he has come and has risen.  Praise his Name!

[His_disciple3]

Friend, I have tried to be reasonable, and I have asked politely for you to let me speak. However it seems obvious to me that you believe you understand my theology, and my motives far better then I do and therefore you are not prepared to let my words stand on their own merit - so there is nothing more for me to say! there is one thing that is certain, and that is that one of us appears to be somewhat closed minded.

so in other word you can't explain the Knowledge vanishing so we ignore it, if what ever "the perfect one comes" means has already happened as Most Baptist preach, and tongues has ceased then knowledge has vanished, which can't be for Biblical knowledge is to know good and evil, right and wrong. and if Knowledge hasn't vanished then tongues hasn't ceased and if knowledge has vanished we wouldn't know if it is good to speak tongues or not

 

I am not ignoring anything. I do not believe tongues have ceased according to 1 Cor 13. I have explained the text you refer to in detail and I have shown why it is not relevant to what I am saying and why it does not (or should not) form part of the cessationist argument. The whole point of what Paul is saying is that these gifts are temporary, and will eventaully pass away, but gifts like love will endure, so long for that enduring gift, and not the passing ones - I can do no more in regards to this straw-man I am afraid.

 

Also, I have asked you cite sources for your claims of what baptist's teach, none has been forthcoming! The reason I am challenging this is because I am a baptist, and I don't teach what you say, and further more no particular baptists do as far as I can tell. The idea that 'baptists' all hold to a single uniform theology seems to be somewhat of an oxymoron to me - we baptists have always been a diverse bunch my friend, some are pelagian, some semi, some Arminian, some Amyraldian some are Calvinists, some are hyper Calvinists, we have different views on the ends days, and so the list goes on - so maybe we have different views on the gifts as well - which is why it is best to let another speak and address the arguments they are making, not the ones we would like them to make because we have heard them before and we have an answer for that one already

 

The simple fact is my friend, that as I see it the onus of proof is not on the cessationist camp, but on the continuationist camp. History demonstrates that tongues have ceased (at least for periods in history), historic theology demonstrates that the vast majority of Bible believing Christians have not viewed tongues as being a gift for their own day, and the biblical gift of tongues (human languages) is not what we usually see today, rather what we usually see is exactly what Paul was trying to stop happening in Corinth (people thinking the spectactular gifts were more important then the mundane [the purposes of 1 Cor 13] and everyone was at it with no order, which is what 1 Cor 14 is all about.) Indeed what we see to day is the 'gift' taking to an extreme beyond that which was happening in Corinth. 

 

Hence I am not a cessationist by tradition or mere conviction - but by evidence (biblical and historic) - I am open to be convinced that tongues continue today, but to be convinced I need to see some contradictory evidence that demonstrates:

 

1) It is the same gift as detailed in the Bible (Acts 2 being the only text that contains such detail)  

2) Serve a revelatory and sign purpose (as tongues did in the early church)(Acts 2, 1 Cor 12-14)

3) Is being demonstrated in line with Paul's didactic teaching on the subject (1 Cor 12-14)

4) It is a gift for the church (not just individual or individual congregations) (Acts 2, 1 Cor 12-14)

 

Anything that cannot address and satisfy all those criteria is not the biblical gift of tongues. Now, to be fair, my level of evidence may be faulty, and that is open for challenge. Too often today though positions are defendedg not by making a positive case for them, but by merely seeking to disprove the oppositions case by any means possible, as if proving your opponent wrong must mean you are right. Now that is relatively easy to do (any old unskilled labourer can destroy in seconds what it took skilled builders years to build). However such a negative argument, does not in reality make a case. As Christians we are called to be edifiers, we are supposed to be building each other up. So, my friend, make your case if you wish to do so

Again sir I will have to say that, you are in vain if you think all my post are about you. You for some reason have taken all I said personally, this is an open forum, and obviously you are not even reading my post, For I have said that I know some Baptist that believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the Gifts that come with Holy Spirit. So I have never said" 

that 'baptists' all hold to a single uniform theology

now someone else has accused me of not letting you say what you believe, so please feel free to respond to these questions: are you saying that the Baptist in whole does not hold to the doctrine that tongues mentioned in scriptures is not unknown nor Angels tongues but rather simply a Foreign language. And also Most Baptist Hold to the doctrine that I cor. 13 stating that "tongues will cease" occurred with the cannon of scriptures. Saying that "the perfect one" referring from scripture declaring when these temporal gifts  will cease, is the cannon of scriptures. So if one group hold on to these 2 doctrines, then as others have pointed out, that both doctrines can not be true for if tongues are simply a foreign language, then to say that this gift of tongues has ceased with the cannon of scriptures, would to be to say we are all under the same language as before the Towel of Babel. so seeing that these are open forums, and I haven't figured out how to stop someone from posting their view as I have been accused concerning you. which doctrine do you hold as your doctrine.

8. What is the SBC’s official view of "speaking in tongues" and other "charismatic" gifts?

There is no official SBC view or stance on the issue. If you polled SBC churches across the nation on the topic of "charismatic" practices you would likely find a variety of perspectives. Probably most believe that the "gift of tongues" as described in the Bible ceased upon the completion of the Bible. Some may view speaking in tongues as a spiritual gift given to some Christians enabling them to communicate the Gospel to foreign cultures in a language the speaker had not known previously. A very small minority might accept what is commonly practiced today in charismatic churches as valid.

http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/faqs.asp#8

as the poll above show, For most Baptist tongues ceased with the Bible( cannon of scriptures and the are the ability to speak or understand a foreign language that the speaker had not previously known.

Edited December 25, 2013 by His_disciple3

[His_disciple3]

SHOULD A BAPTIST CHURCH EMBRACE PENTECOSTALISM?

WHAT IS WRONG WITH PENTECOSTALISM?

We could mention many things that are wrong with Pentecostalism. We could mention the divisiveness it seems to bring in a church. We could mention the circus-like atmosphere it creates in the worship services. But here we want to look at only four of the outstanding errors of this heresy of Pentecostalism.

First Pentecostalism seeks to apply to our day what belonged only to the apostles and their day. Pentecostals teach that those extraordinary gifts given by the Lord to the apostles and others in New Testament times are intended for Christians in every age.

Distributed by

THE HISTORIC BAPTIST

P. O. BOX741

BLOOMFIELD NM 87413

http://www.pbministries.org/Theology/Laurence%20Justice/embrace_pentecostalism.htm

This is according to this Baptist website, Not Me, I do not hold to this Baptist Doctrine.

Edited December 26, 2013 by His_disciple3

[JohnD]

It's been a number of years, but the late Dr. Walter Martin did an extensive research series into the speaking of tongues (dialectos versus glosilalia) my spelling may be way off. One is not understood babble and the other is understandable speech. The miracle was that the ones speaking the foreign language did not normally speak the language. It was also about witnesses to visiting Jews from foreign lands who spoke those languages and not Aramaic or Hebrew.

 

As far as a sign for today and the evidence of salvation... many religions use "speaking in tongues" as part of their ritual... there's the ohmmm and so on...

 

Not the sign the hard core Pentecostals claim...

 

Who, btw, do not celebrate the feast of Pentecost nor even make mention of it... which I find curious...

[His_disciple3]

gdemoss, thank you for your post, however, The mention of unknown tongue or angel tongues in scriptures, is not simply a new tongue or cleaner tongue, But I will come together with You and praise the Lord for your new tongue. as we  pray as well. that you walk in the newness, And allow the old man to die daily.

[His_disciple3]

JohnDB. The gifts were misused in the Bible days and will be misused in today's times. many Christian Churches have allowed Jewish teachers to come in to their churches and teach, I have no problem with Jewish people teaching, on the most part all know scripture really well, But the problem in this area is that they teach we must observe the Feast days and By doing so, they put the ones that follow their teachings, back under the law. Back to the gifts they were misused in the Bible days, but this didn't mean that there was not Godly inspired gifts given in the Bible days neither would it prove yeah or nay for gifts in today's church. salvation is a gift, the Holy Ghost is referenced in scriptures as a gift from the Father, why is it so hard for many to accept that the Spiritual gifts were given to empower and edify the Body of Christ, take the 5 offices God gave the Church, Apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers, Most Churches have taken from the Church and said we don't need these offices, of Apostles and prophets, But scriptures says these offices were given: Eph 4:12-13

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

KJV

Do the saints not need perfecting anymore, is there still works within the ministry, does the Body of Christ not need edifying anymore, Have we all come to the unity of faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, have we reached our perfection, then why would some teach that we don't need ALL that God has given. same with Spiritual gifts it's like saying ok God I know you know best, But I don't need your gifts, I can do it on my own, I don't need all the offices that you ordained for My church, If we don't need the Gifts do we need the Holy Ghost?????

Col 2:16

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday(feast days), or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

KJV we do celebrate the Passover we just call it Easter, when the Blood was Shed to cover the curse

[enoob57]

As an aside that may conjure debate but is merely meant to provoke thought, I would like to say that before Christ I spoke with an evil tongue of darkened understanding where my words were used to gain selfishly in the world around me as I sought to rule over everyone and everything but after Christ came I began to speak with a new tongue, a tongue that sought to heal and not destroy.  Although I have an opinion today of various tongues spoken of in the bible both of men and of angels, the evidence of speaking with a new tongue has everything to do with the true conversion of the soul won over to the true Christ from that which is against Christ.  Never before a man spake like this they said but I say unto you that many speak as he first did now that he has come and has risen.  Praise his Name!

I agree that it is about relationship and outward change of an inward occurrence!

If tongues were utilized in accordance with Biblical regulations set forth upon them there

would be 'NO' issues with them! Love, Steven

[His_disciple3]

As an aside that may conjure debate but is merely meant to provoke thought, I would like to say that before Christ I spoke with an evil tongue of darkened understanding where my words were used to gain selfishly in the world around me as I sought to rule over everyone and everything but after Christ came I began to speak with a new tongue, a tongue that sought to heal and not destroy.  Although I have an opinion today of various tongues spoken of in the bible both of men and of angels, the evidence of speaking with a new tongue has everything to do with the true conversion of the soul won over to the true Christ from that which is against Christ.  Never before a man spake like this they said but I say unto you that many speak as he first did now that he has come and has risen.  Praise his Name!

I agree that it is about relationship and outward change of an inward occurrence!

If tongues were utilized in accordance with Biblical regulations set forth upon them there

would be 'NO' issues with them! Love, Steven

there would still be an issue for many believe the gifts ceased with the 12 Apostles, they over look the fact that Saul/Paul was the thirteen Apostle. and gifts were misused even n the Bible days, the very reason Paul had to teach how there were suppose to be used.

[enoob57]

As an aside that may conjure debate but is merely meant to provoke thought, I would like to say that before Christ I spoke with an evil tongue of darkened understanding where my words were used to gain selfishly in the world around me as I sought to rule over everyone and everything but after Christ came I began to speak with a new tongue, a tongue that sought to heal and not destroy.  Although I have an opinion today of various tongues spoken of in the bible both of men and of angels, the evidence of speaking with a new tongue has everything to do with the true conversion of the soul won over to the true Christ from that which is against Christ.  Never before a man spake like this they said but I say unto you that many speak as he first did now that he has come and has risen.  Praise his Name!

I agree that it is about relationship and outward change of an inward occurrence!

If tongues were utilized in accordance with Biblical regulations set forth upon them there

would be 'NO' issues with them! Love, Steven

there would still be an issue for many believe the gifts ceased with the 12 Apostles, they over look the fact that Saul/Paul was the thirteen Apostle. and gifts were misused even n the Bible days, the very reason Paul had to teach how there were suppose to be used.

The issue comes from the Godly wanting to verify all spirits with God's Word...

The practice of tongue in a public setting without interpreter is violating God's Word.

Historically it faded away to nearly nothing but to say when the ceasing is-is not nearly

as important as the obedience of the gift! Love, Steven