Luke 16:19-31 The Rich Man and Lazarus

[other one]

Ok, just to be clear, DRS and other one, are you both saying that those who are dead physically can change their minds repent and get saved? Or am I misunderstanding your posts?

 

That wasn't my intention Ayin....    I have never understood what was meant when Paul asked about baptizing for the dead...  I listened to the KJV of the Bible one summer back in the early 90's with that in mind and really never have been able to understand why they were doing so.

[Guest ninhao]

This is why forums are so confusing.

Poster C asks a question about poster A and B.

Poster A answers poster C.

Then poster D disagrees with poster A contradicting what he said on the first page,

because the OP is naturally a complex study.

 

Who is on first ?

[Guest DRS81]

1. Jesus is saying that when that event happened the rich man looked up from hell.

2. This story doesn't teach that we go to hell or heaven the minute we die; that is not the point of the parable at all.

 

Hi shiloh357. If the rich man is looking up from hell, then why does this story not teach that we go to hell. I see a contradiction in your explanation here.

[Guest DRS81]

This parable was not to show us what happens when a man dies.

 

Then what are the reasons behind post#4, words describing the afterlife. What does hell, died, angels carried him, buried, torment, agony in fire mean in Luke 16 here if it doesn't describe the afterlife..

 

But there are well-knit, worded descriptions specifically about the afterlife...

 

1. vs 22 - begger died/angels carried him/rich man died and buried

2. vs 23 - hell/torment

3. vs 24 - agony in fire

4. vs 28 - torment

5. vs 30 - if someone from the dead goes to them

6. vs 31 - they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead

[Guest man]

The first shall be last and the last first.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

1. Jesus is saying that when that event happened the rich man looked up from hell.

2. This story doesn't teach that we go to hell or heaven the minute we die; that is not the point of the parable at all.

 

Hi shiloh357. If the rich man is looking up from hell, then why does this story not teach that we go to hell. I see a contradiction in your explanation here.

 

There is no contradiction.  You highlighted only portion of what I said and ignored the rest.   I said that it doesn't teach that we immediately to hell the minute we die.  I did not say it doesn't teach we don't go to hell.   You need to read EVERYTHING I said.  You cannot cherry pick my comments like that. 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

No, the Pharisees, in Jesus' day were the "believers" in that they were the religious crowd to whom Jesus was directing this parable.

 

No matter what they were called in Jesus day, the Pharisees were not born again believers. Who is the parable speaking too, what heart is it speaking too?

 

 

Nobody was a born against believer at that time, DRS.    The point is that the target audience was the Pharisees and He was addressing their greed and thier false assumption that their wealth meant that they were favored by God.

 

WHat I see in your responses DRS is an agenda.  You want the parable to mean what YOU want it to mean. And you are trying to do everything you can make the parable mean what you feel you need it mean. 

 

 

 

 

 I don't know if in hell you can "change your mind,"  but I do know that once you're dead, there are no second chances.  You cannot get saved after you die. Once you're dead, that's it, your fate is sealed and there is no changing that.  If you reject Jesus in this life, you don't get a second chance in hell.

 

 

But you had said that the parable is not speaking about the afterlife, that's why I'm confused

 

I didn't say the parable isn't speaking about the afterlife.  I said the parable isn't speaking to the issue of how soon after death someone goes to hell or heaven.

[OneLight]

Hell? It is real, but not forever.

Revelation 20:14

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Hell not only is real but it will last for an eternity.A person will be cast into the lake of fire with eternal conscious torment.

Death and Hades (hell) are not alive, have no spirit or soul. I believe they cease to exist for they will not be needed any more. The second death is the lake of fire.

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

I don't think this parable proves that.

There is quite a debate of it being parable!

 

What is the debate about enoob?

 

No where in the account are we given permission to call it a parable... even the naming is specific

to individuals and that is not found anywhere else in any other known parable! You do not name that

which is not! Love, Steven

 

I was common among the Rabbis to use the names of real people in parables.   In some cases, they even used the names of famous Rabbis.   That Jesus used real people doesn't mean this is not a parable.  And from a literary perspective, it is a parable. 

 

 

In the NT, whenever Jesus told a parable, He indicated that it was a parable. In the case of Lazarus and the rich man, there is no indication that it is a parable.

 

In Judaism, that parables told by the Rabbis which used real names, used famous peoples names, such as well known Rabbis, and notorious heretics. Neither Lazaraus nor the rich man are famous, notorious, or Rabbis. 

 

The belief in Judaism is that people who are worthy of the age to come, reside in Abrahams bosom, until the resurrection of the dead. Abrahams bosom is also called paradise, and is not the same as 'heaven'.  

[Reformed Baptist]

Actually to draw an teaching on the afterlife from this parable is dangerous, because that isn't the point of it. In context the Lord Jesus Christ is addressing the Pharisees for their self righteous pretense of religion - the rich man in the parable is the Pharisee, and the message is that if they reject what Moses and the prophet says, they will also reject the messiah, and there is therefore no opportunity for them to be saved, or, to put it another way, they rejection of their messiah is based upon their rejection of what Moses and the prophets were really saying, and because of this rejection they will never be saved.