grudges against the churches

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Everyone,

 

        I am a member at a local church & we have what we call 2 Sister churches(we all visit one another)....we are all the body of Christ ,I have had more good experience than bad & I do not understand why people cannot hold on to the good,praise & worship God (& hear the sermon-lol)& leave the rest behind?

        I think it was Sevenseas that was pointing out the I,I,I,I, you hear when people are turned off to church....that has got to go,it has to be a we,we,us,us attitude      Perhaps people just set their expectations(on people)too high..........our Brothers & Sisters are just people,none perfect..........so many things can be worked out with love but usually pride gets in the way........

        It is no different than here,this too is the same Body of Christ.......there are some contrary people & some positive peace makers but most of us work it all out with love..........I think many people simply make many excuses to justify what they want to do...just my 2 cents

                                                                                                             With love,in Christ-Kwik

[Qnts2]

I was always curious what Alexander Coppersmith did to Paul that he didnt say the "Lord forgive him" but rather "The Lord repay him" anyone know?

 

I can speculate:

 

2 Tim 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me great harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds. 15 Beware of him yourself, for he strongly opposed our message 16 At my first defense no one came to stand by me, but all deserted me. May it not be charged against them!

 

To start, it is interesting that Paul is saying that the Lord will repay him according to his deed, but then prays that those who deserted Paul, there desertion should not be charged against them. This indicates that what Alexander did is much more severe then what others did to Paul.

 

Alexander strongly opposed Pauls message. So, we might ask, what is Pauls message. Could this be the message of salvation? That could very well be, and I think it was. If that is true, Alexander was keeping people from coming to faith in Jesus.      

 

If the message Alexander was opposing was the message to believers of grace, instead teaching the law or a works based salvation, he would have been leading young believers back under the bondage of the law, which disrupts them coming into the fullness of Messiah. Again, a grave error which effects the lives of many.

 

I do not believe Paul's comment had anything to do with Alexander hurting Paul, but that Alexander was hurting the people Paul was trying to teach, lead to the Lord, or minister to in another way.     

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

I think peoples experiences differ and we can be out of tune and make all things equal according to them.

For example the more extreme experiences of so many young children in a place of worship (even Gods household) who trusted, and were taken and molested for years by these men of the cloth (claiming to represent a Holy God).

I mean, sure, we can tell them all to get the heck over it right? Of course, but Im sure many of these are also wondering how so many more had such a lack discernment concerning this. Or because of this experience they had are a lot distrusting (perhaps a little more so then most) and also of others (who for the greater part) everywhere were duped by these so called men of God.

And maybe too (since their trauma) they have had time to consider and ask harder questions, like "how absolutely out of touch" are a lot of these people in so many of these churches?

Because, I think years of an experience ( and maybe more so in this particular experience) will often open up a floodwater of other questions (even long after the fact).

Whereas they (in almost a singled out sense) might have SEEN (felt, and experienced this evil) for many years, while no one else SAW a thing of what they felt or experienced of the same evil. Yet it was going on by the holy men which lead each of these congregations. The majority of which (who) might (for the most part) praise. Get my drift? Im bad at this stuff.

Whereas some people just perceive "walking through the tulips and sunshine blowing through every orifice" others (even like these children) might perceive all that (even them who minimize what they went through) in a whole other way. They see through the eyes of "Men of God" and the harm coming toward them through these pillars (or representatives (supposedly) they saw themselves both victimized (and deceived) and they perceive the congregants (who saw nothing) for the most part deceived (and insensitive) and bringing up their experiences as something that will require them to be attacked (again). When it should be that those who teach (being masters) are they which should bear the greater damnation then those who were their victims (if I put that right).

So on the one hand (they, even as little ones) have had this horrible and frightening experience. Then the concealing of it all (while the little ones bear the shame of these men) in themselves but also larger responsibility (for the most part) it seems. Who then (long after the fact) in expressing a bit of well deserved pessimism seem to be re-victimized through others utter insensitivity. "More Holiness" coming their way. So much for anything restorative (again)

Its just that the predator becomes far more sympathized with then the prey, and I can see that in other various situations. Very often actually (to various degrees).

I am bad at articulating myself, so I am probably not putting this that well, but I just don't think these people (who have gone through such things) see Jesus Christ (or all the sunshine) others might be "seeing" in the churches. Jesus didn't seem to in 5 out of 7 churches so much so. So they might not be seeing the sunshine either, whether in them (plurally) as smaller wholes or in the ministers of the same (who) in this case might be blowing all kinds of sunshine up the majorities rear ends (which they see and believe) but the other is (through experience) somewhat wary of anything these (for the most part) can actually perceive see they missed so much (at their expense).

But again, I believe the words "Get the heck over it" will probably be the magic words which will bring back some of these previously offended little ones.

Or maybe not.

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

I was always curious what Alexander Coppersmith did to Paul that he didnt say the "Lord forgive him" but rather "The Lord repay him" anyone know?

 

I can speculate:

 

2 Tim 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me great harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds. 15 Beware of him yourself, for he strongly opposed our message 16 At my first defense no one came to stand by me, but all deserted me. May it not be charged against them!

 

To start, it is interesting that Paul is saying that the Lord will repay him according to his deed, but then prays that those who deserted Paul, there desertion should not be charged against them. This indicates that what Alexander did is much more severe then what others did to Paul.

 

Alexander strongly opposed Pauls message. So, we might ask, what is Pauls message. Could this be the message of salvation? That could very well be, and I think it was. If that is true, Alexander was keeping people from coming to faith in Jesus.      

 

If the message Alexander was opposing was the message to believers of grace, instead teaching the law or a works based salvation, he would have been leading young believers back under the bondage of the law, which disrupts them coming into the fullness of Messiah. Again, a grave error which effects the lives of many.

 

I do not believe Paul's comment had anything to do with Alexander hurting Paul, but that Alexander was hurting the people Paul was trying to teach, lead to the Lord, or minister to in another way.

I agree that it was not harming Paul personally, even a viper bit Paul (personally) and he felt no harm even in that lol

You can see the same in speaking the word of God here and another coming in to turn away another from the faith

Acts 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found (((a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew))) whose name was Barjesus:

Acts 13:7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, (((and desired to hear the word of God)))

Acts 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation ) withstood them, (((seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith)))

Whereas below (even as Jesus was a witness against those oppressing the widow Mat 23:14) Who himself said (((for judgment I am come))) into the world ...this...

Mal 3:5 (((And I will come near to you to judgment))) and I will be (((a swift witness against the sorcerer,))) and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

Whereas in Acts we see next...

Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) (((filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him)))

Acts 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

Acts 13:11 And now, behold, ((((the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season))) And immediately there (((fell on him a mist and a darkness))) and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

Even as it speaks of he that troubleth you (((shall bear his judgment))) whosoever he be. The above shows a mist of darkness coming upon him (for a season) even as Christ come into the world for judgment and making the blind to see and those who say they see blind is shown.

So as vengeance is the Lord and its His to repay (Paul say, "the Lord repay"). So as judgment can be rewarded into ones own bosom or a Spirit of (even wrath can be). At least showing in the above case a mist of darkness was rewarded the man. Which is interesting because it says "leave room for wrath" (he shall repay) and wrath likewise "darkens the land". They seem comparative in more then a few places also.

I think it shows an immediate kind forgiveness wasn't issued but a repayment (in bearing judgment) or wrath (which was the Lords to do) was imparted (at least we see it in the one) and Pauls wording seems to indicate so much towards Alexander Coppersmith.

Even likewise in these...

1Thes 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, (((to fill up their sins always))) for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Which speaks of "filling up their sins" not the forgiveness of their sins there as wrath is coming on them there.

[gdemoss]

Stirring again.

 

There are many people who seem to have grudges against the churches out there. Some of them go beyond condemning a single church and translate their issues to all churches. It is this group Im asking about. For those who condemn all churches based on things they were offended by, what is the appropriate response? What should those who are offended do? 

 

 

Hey that was me before I was saved!

 

What do we do with people like that?  We love them.

 

That love looks different depending upon the person because each person is at a different place in there life with a multitude of things that have happened to bring them there.  I hated Christians because of the hateful things those who claimed to follow Christ did to me and others.  When the day came that a Christian actually loved me I had to concede that not all Christians are bad.

 

My journey was comprised of a great number of people and intersecting events that brought me to a place of solid not easily shaken faith but each of us have the opportunity to be one of those people along with an event that helps another move from where they are to where they need to be.  I take it one event/person at a time.  I spend time learning about spiritual principle and various manifestations so that I can simplify my understanding about what is really going on around me in the lives of others so that I can understand what they need.

 

Hope that helps a bit.

[ayin jade]

I think peoples experiences differ and we can be out of tune and make all things equal according to them.

For example the more extreme experiences of so many young children in a place of worship (even Gods household) who trusted, and were taken and molested for years by these men of the cloth (claiming to represent a Holy God).

I mean, sure, we can tell them all to get the heck over it right? Of course, but Im sure many of these are also wondering how so many more had such a lack discernment concerning this. Or because of this experience they had are a lot distrusting (perhaps a little more so then most) and also of others (who for the greater part) everywhere were duped by these so called men of God.

And maybe too (since their trauma) they have had time to consider and ask harder questions, like "how absolutely out of touch" are a lot of these people in so many of these churches?

Because, I think years of an experience ( and maybe more so in this particular experience) will often open up a floodwater of other questions (even long after the fact).

Whereas they (in almost a singled out sense) might have SEEN (felt, and experienced this evil) for many years, while no one else SAW a thing of what they felt or experienced of the same evil. Yet it was going on by the holy men which lead each of these congregations. The majority of which (who) might (for the most part) praise. Get my drift? Im bad at this stuff.

Whereas some people just perceive "walking through the tulips and sunshine blowing through every orifice" others (even like these children) might perceive all that (even them who minimize what they went through) in a whole other way. They see through the eyes of "Men of God" and the harm coming toward them through these pillars (or representatives (supposedly) they saw themselves both victimized (and deceived) and they perceive the congregants (who saw nothing) for the most part deceived (and insensitive) and bringing up their experiences as something that will require them to be attacked (again). When it should be that those who teach (being masters) are they which should bear the greater damnation then those who were their victims (if I put that right).

So on the one hand (they, even as little ones) have had this horrible and frightening experience. Then the concealing of it all (while the little ones bear the shame of these men) in themselves but also larger responsibility (for the most part) it seems. Who then (long after the fact) in expressing a bit of well deserved pessimism seem to be re-victimized through others utter insensitivity. "More Holiness" coming their way. So much for anything restorative (again)

Its just that the predator becomes far more sympathized with then the prey, and I can see that in other various situations. Very often actually (to various degrees).

I am bad at articulating myself, so I am probably not putting this that well, but I just don't think these people (who have gone through such things) see Jesus Christ (or all the sunshine) others might be "seeing" in the churches. Jesus didn't seem to in 5 out of 7 churches so much so. So they might not be seeing the sunshine either, whether in them (plurally) as smaller wholes or in the ministers of the same (who) in this case might be blowing all kinds of sunshine up the majorities rear ends (which they see and believe) but the other is (through experience) somewhat wary of anything these (for the most part) can actually perceive see they missed so much (at their expense).

But again, I believe the words "Get the heck over it" will probably be the magic words which will bring back some of these previously offended little ones.

Or maybe not.

 

There is a world of difference in someone who was molested as a child by a church leader and someone who took offense because the church refused to praise a woman who had sex outside of marriage and got pregnant. I would never tell someone who was molested by anyone to just get over it. But someone who isnt involved and takes offense at the church doing what it is supposed to do and takes offense, yea they should start looking at what scripture says and get their hearts right.

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

 

I think peoples experiences differ and we can be out of tune and make all things equal according to them.

For example the more extreme experiences of so many young children in a place of worship (even Gods household) who trusted, and were taken and molested for years by these men of the cloth (claiming to represent a Holy God).

I mean, sure, we can tell them all to get the heck over it right? Of course, but Im sure many of these are also wondering how so many more had such a lack discernment concerning this. Or because of this experience they had are a lot distrusting (perhaps a little more so then most) and also of others (who for the greater part) everywhere were duped by these so called men of God.

And maybe too (since their trauma) they have had time to consider and ask harder questions, like "how absolutely out of touch" are a lot of these people in so many of these churches?

Because, I think years of an experience ( and maybe more so in this particular experience) will often open up a floodwater of other questions (even long after the fact).

Whereas they (in almost a singled out sense) might have SEEN (felt, and experienced this evil) for many years, while no one else SAW a thing of what they felt or experienced of the same evil. Yet it was going on by the holy men which lead each of these congregations. The majority of which (who) might (for the most part) praise. Get my drift? Im bad at this stuff.

Whereas some people just perceive "walking through the tulips and sunshine blowing through every orifice" others (even like these children) might perceive all that (even them who minimize what they went through) in a whole other way. They see through the eyes of "Men of God" and the harm coming toward them through these pillars (or representatives (supposedly) they saw themselves both victimized (and deceived) and they perceive the congregants (who saw nothing) for the most part deceived (and insensitive) and bringing up their experiences as something that will require them to be attacked (again). When it should be that those who teach (being masters) are they which should bear the greater damnation then those who were their victims (if I put that right).

So on the one hand (they, even as little ones) have had this horrible and frightening experience. Then the concealing of it all (while the little ones bear the shame of these men) in themselves but also larger responsibility (for the most part) it seems. Who then (long after the fact) in expressing a bit of well deserved pessimism seem to be re-victimized through others utter insensitivity. "More Holiness" coming their way. So much for anything restorative (again)

Its just that the predator becomes far more sympathized with then the prey, and I can see that in other various situations. Very often actually (to various degrees).

I am bad at articulating myself, so I am probably not putting this that well, but I just don't think these people (who have gone through such things) see Jesus Christ (or all the sunshine) others might be "seeing" in the churches. Jesus didn't seem to in 5 out of 7 churches so much so. So they might not be seeing the sunshine either, whether in them (plurally) as smaller wholes or in the ministers of the same (who) in this case might be blowing all kinds of sunshine up the majorities rear ends (which they see and believe) but the other is (through experience) somewhat wary of anything these (for the most part) can actually perceive see they missed so much (at their expense).

But again, I believe the words "Get the heck over it" will probably be the magic words which will bring back some of these previously offended little ones.

Or maybe not.

 

There is a world of difference in someone who was molested as a child by a church leader and someone who took offense because the church refused to praise a woman who had sex outside of marriage and got pregnant. I would never tell someone who was molested by anyone to just get over it. But someone who isnt involved and takes offense at the church doing what it is supposed to do and takes offense, yea they should start looking at what scripture says and get their hearts right.

 

 

Jesus talks about offending these little ones (not praising fornication). I never heard of praising fornication, Paul says let it not be named once among you as becometh the saints. I dont see how anyone could hold a grudge against the church for rebuking fornication.

 

I am talking about wrongs done to church members (molesting them or their children is wrong)

 

Not praising fornication is not a wrong (but a right)

[LookingForAnswers]

 

 

I think peoples experiences differ and we can be out of tune and make all things equal according to them.

For example the more extreme experiences of so many young children in a place of worship (even Gods household) who trusted, and were taken and molested for years by these men of the cloth (claiming to represent a Holy God).

I mean, sure, we can tell them all to get the heck over it right? Of course, but Im sure many of these are also wondering how so many more had such a lack discernment concerning this. Or because of this experience they had are a lot distrusting (perhaps a little more so then most) and also of others (who for the greater part) everywhere were duped by these so called men of God.

And maybe too (since their trauma) they have had time to consider and ask harder questions, like "how absolutely out of touch" are a lot of these people in so many of these churches?

Because, I think years of an experience ( and maybe more so in this particular experience) will often open up a floodwater of other questions (even long after the fact).

Whereas they (in almost a singled out sense) might have SEEN (felt, and experienced this evil) for many years, while no one else SAW a thing of what they felt or experienced of the same evil. Yet it was going on by the holy men which lead each of these congregations. The majority of which (who) might (for the most part) praise. Get my drift? Im bad at this stuff.

Whereas some people just perceive "walking through the tulips and sunshine blowing through every orifice" others (even like these children) might perceive all that (even them who minimize what they went through) in a whole other way. They see through the eyes of "Men of God" and the harm coming toward them through these pillars (or representatives (supposedly) they saw themselves both victimized (and deceived) and they perceive the congregants (who saw nothing) for the most part deceived (and insensitive) and bringing up their experiences as something that will require them to be attacked (again). When it should be that those who teach (being masters) are they which should bear the greater damnation then those who were their victims (if I put that right).

So on the one hand (they, even as little ones) have had this horrible and frightening experience. Then the concealing of it all (while the little ones bear the shame of these men) in themselves but also larger responsibility (for the most part) it seems. Who then (long after the fact) in expressing a bit of well deserved pessimism seem to be re-victimized through others utter insensitivity. "More Holiness" coming their way. So much for anything restorative (again)

Its just that the predator becomes far more sympathized with then the prey, and I can see that in other various situations. Very often actually (to various degrees).

I am bad at articulating myself, so I am probably not putting this that well, but I just don't think these people (who have gone through such things) see Jesus Christ (or all the sunshine) others might be "seeing" in the churches. Jesus didn't seem to in 5 out of 7 churches so much so. So they might not be seeing the sunshine either, whether in them (plurally) as smaller wholes or in the ministers of the same (who) in this case might be blowing all kinds of sunshine up the majorities rear ends (which they see and believe) but the other is (through experience) somewhat wary of anything these (for the most part) can actually perceive see they missed so much (at their expense).

But again, I believe the words "Get the heck over it" will probably be the magic words which will bring back some of these previously offended little ones.

Or maybe not.

 

There is a world of difference in someone who was molested as a child by a church leader and someone who took offense because the church refused to praise a woman who had sex outside of marriage and got pregnant. I would never tell someone who was molested by anyone to just get over it. But someone who isnt involved and takes offense at the church doing what it is supposed to do and takes offense, yea they should start looking at what scripture says and get their hearts right.

 

 

Jesus talks about offending these little ones (not praising fornication). I never heard of praising fornication, Paul says let it not be named once among you as becometh the saints. I dont see how anyone could hold a grudge against the church for rebuking fornication.

 

I am talking about wrongs done to church members (molesting them or their children is wrong)

 

Not praising fornication is not a wrong (but a right)

 

 

The church was not asked to praise fornication, they were asked to support  young lady that made a mistake and then tried to do the right thing, a very hard right thing.   This young lady came close to killing her baby because she did not want to face the sort of judgement such as was spoken above. she did not want her parents to have to face the condemnation that came their way from people who claim to love the Lord Jesus.    Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery, he showed mercy to a woman who had 5 husbands and was living with a 6th man.  Yet the people of this church would not and could not do so for young woman who made a single mistake.   Someone tell me where the love of Christ is in such actions?   Show me in the scripture where we are told to shun someone who made a mistake and is trying to do the right thing.

[ayin jade]

 

 

I think peoples experiences differ and we can be out of tune and make all things equal according to them.

For example the more extreme experiences of so many young children in a place of worship (even Gods household) who trusted, and were taken and molested for years by these men of the cloth (claiming to represent a Holy God).

I mean, sure, we can tell them all to get the heck over it right? Of course, but Im sure many of these are also wondering how so many more had such a lack discernment concerning this. Or because of this experience they had are a lot distrusting (perhaps a little more so then most) and also of others (who for the greater part) everywhere were duped by these so called men of God.

And maybe too (since their trauma) they have had time to consider and ask harder questions, like "how absolutely out of touch" are a lot of these people in so many of these churches?

Because, I think years of an experience ( and maybe more so in this particular experience) will often open up a floodwater of other questions (even long after the fact).

Whereas they (in almost a singled out sense) might have SEEN (felt, and experienced this evil) for many years, while no one else SAW a thing of what they felt or experienced of the same evil. Yet it was going on by the holy men which lead each of these congregations. The majority of which (who) might (for the most part) praise. Get my drift? Im bad at this stuff.

Whereas some people just perceive "walking through the tulips and sunshine blowing through every orifice" others (even like these children) might perceive all that (even them who minimize what they went through) in a whole other way. They see through the eyes of "Men of God" and the harm coming toward them through these pillars (or representatives (supposedly) they saw themselves both victimized (and deceived) and they perceive the congregants (who saw nothing) for the most part deceived (and insensitive) and bringing up their experiences as something that will require them to be attacked (again). When it should be that those who teach (being masters) are they which should bear the greater damnation then those who were their victims (if I put that right).

So on the one hand (they, even as little ones) have had this horrible and frightening experience. Then the concealing of it all (while the little ones bear the shame of these men) in themselves but also larger responsibility (for the most part) it seems. Who then (long after the fact) in expressing a bit of well deserved pessimism seem to be re-victimized through others utter insensitivity. "More Holiness" coming their way. So much for anything restorative (again)

Its just that the predator becomes far more sympathized with then the prey, and I can see that in other various situations. Very often actually (to various degrees).

I am bad at articulating myself, so I am probably not putting this that well, but I just don't think these people (who have gone through such things) see Jesus Christ (or all the sunshine) others might be "seeing" in the churches. Jesus didn't seem to in 5 out of 7 churches so much so. So they might not be seeing the sunshine either, whether in them (plurally) as smaller wholes or in the ministers of the same (who) in this case might be blowing all kinds of sunshine up the majorities rear ends (which they see and believe) but the other is (through experience) somewhat wary of anything these (for the most part) can actually perceive see they missed so much (at their expense).

But again, I believe the words "Get the heck over it" will probably be the magic words which will bring back some of these previously offended little ones.

Or maybe not.

 

There is a world of difference in someone who was molested as a child by a church leader and someone who took offense because the church refused to praise a woman who had sex outside of marriage and got pregnant. I would never tell someone who was molested by anyone to just get over it. But someone who isnt involved and takes offense at the church doing what it is supposed to do and takes offense, yea they should start looking at what scripture says and get their hearts right.

 

 

Jesus talks about offending these little ones (not praising fornication). I never heard of praising fornication, Paul says let it not be named once among you as becometh the saints. I dont see how anyone could hold a grudge against the church for rebuking fornication.

 

I am talking about wrongs done to church members (molesting them or their children is wrong)

 

Not praising fornication is not a wrong (but a right)

 

 

One person posted on the forums this week in which he or she took offense at a church that did not praise a teen for having a baby but instead removed her from church activities. 

[LookingForAnswers]

 

 

 

I think peoples experiences differ and we can be out of tune and make all things equal according to them.

For example the more extreme experiences of so many young children in a place of worship (even Gods household) who trusted, and were taken and molested for years by these men of the cloth (claiming to represent a Holy God).

I mean, sure, we can tell them all to get the heck over it right? Of course, but Im sure many of these are also wondering how so many more had such a lack discernment concerning this. Or because of this experience they had are a lot distrusting (perhaps a little more so then most) and also of others (who for the greater part) everywhere were duped by these so called men of God.

And maybe too (since their trauma) they have had time to consider and ask harder questions, like "how absolutely out of touch" are a lot of these people in so many of these churches?

Because, I think years of an experience ( and maybe more so in this particular experience) will often open up a floodwater of other questions (even long after the fact).

Whereas they (in almost a singled out sense) might have SEEN (felt, and experienced this evil) for many years, while no one else SAW a thing of what they felt or experienced of the same evil. Yet it was going on by the holy men which lead each of these congregations. The majority of which (who) might (for the most part) praise. Get my drift? Im bad at this stuff.

Whereas some people just perceive "walking through the tulips and sunshine blowing through every orifice" others (even like these children) might perceive all that (even them who minimize what they went through) in a whole other way. They see through the eyes of "Men of God" and the harm coming toward them through these pillars (or representatives (supposedly) they saw themselves both victimized (and deceived) and they perceive the congregants (who saw nothing) for the most part deceived (and insensitive) and bringing up their experiences as something that will require them to be attacked (again). When it should be that those who teach (being masters) are they which should bear the greater damnation then those who were their victims (if I put that right).

So on the one hand (they, even as little ones) have had this horrible and frightening experience. Then the concealing of it all (while the little ones bear the shame of these men) in themselves but also larger responsibility (for the most part) it seems. Who then (long after the fact) in expressing a bit of well deserved pessimism seem to be re-victimized through others utter insensitivity. "More Holiness" coming their way. So much for anything restorative (again)

Its just that the predator becomes far more sympathized with then the prey, and I can see that in other various situations. Very often actually (to various degrees).

I am bad at articulating myself, so I am probably not putting this that well, but I just don't think these people (who have gone through such things) see Jesus Christ (or all the sunshine) others might be "seeing" in the churches. Jesus didn't seem to in 5 out of 7 churches so much so. So they might not be seeing the sunshine either, whether in them (plurally) as smaller wholes or in the ministers of the same (who) in this case might be blowing all kinds of sunshine up the majorities rear ends (which they see and believe) but the other is (through experience) somewhat wary of anything these (for the most part) can actually perceive see they missed so much (at their expense).

But again, I believe the words "Get the heck over it" will probably be the magic words which will bring back some of these previously offended little ones.

Or maybe not.

 

There is a world of difference in someone who was molested as a child by a church leader and someone who took offense because the church refused to praise a woman who had sex outside of marriage and got pregnant. I would never tell someone who was molested by anyone to just get over it. But someone who isnt involved and takes offense at the church doing what it is supposed to do and takes offense, yea they should start looking at what scripture says and get their hearts right.

 

 

Jesus talks about offending these little ones (not praising fornication). I never heard of praising fornication, Paul says let it not be named once among you as becometh the saints. I dont see how anyone could hold a grudge against the church for rebuking fornication.

 

I am talking about wrongs done to church members (molesting them or their children is wrong)

 

Not praising fornication is not a wrong (but a right)

 

 

One person posted on the forums this week in which he or she took offense at a church that did not praise a teen for having a baby but instead removed her from church activities. 

 

 

Here is what I posted...A teenage mother and her family being driven from a church for wanting to hold a baby shower for the girl.  Yes, the teen girl made a mistake but she didn't make it worse by killing her baby.  The family wanted to give her a baby shower at the church like we had done for countless others mothers to be.   They were told that was not allowed because it would be seen as approving of pre-marital sex.   When the family tried to change the leaders mind they were shunned and ended up leaving the church.   There was no love of Jesus in this group, only the love of appearances.

 

Where in this is anything about praising fornication?  Where is anything in this about praise at all?  This was about supporting someone that made a mistake, repented and was trying to do the right thing.  If a church cannot show love to such a person, what is the point of that church?