IMHO: A big part of understanding Hebrew Roots...

[Spock]

Thanks shar for doing my dirty work for me. Maybe my Rabbi was right after all. I will tell him one of the gals here think so and one doesn't.  lol

 

BTW, I'm glad you are involved in this thread seeing that you have Hebrew Roots as one of your hobbies with your menorah avatar and man blowing a shofar signature photo. Cool. 

 

Shalom my dear sister,

Spock out

[Qnts2]

 

The exodus from Egypt included many other people, gentiles that went with them. Ex.12:38.  The Law was given to the Jews as the guardians and it was their duty to be the light to the Gentiles.  The other people of the nations were present at the reading of the Law.  When the covenant was renewed at Mt. Ebal, Joshua gathered all of Israel, aliens and citizens alike.  These aliens with them were attaching themselves to the one true G-d of Israel.  Joshua read all the law, there was not a word Moses had commanded that Joshua did not read.  The Sabbath was part of that reading.

 

G-d states in Is. 56:6 - All goyim (gentiles, foreigners), who bind themselves to the L-rd to serve him, to love the name of the L-rd, and worship him, all who keep his Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant, these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. 

 

 

The Exodus did include some Gentiles who left Egypt with the children of Israel.  These Gentiles were circumcised, and bound to the Mosaic covenant, or in simpler terms, they became Jewish.... converted. They inherit land which is only for children of Israel based on the tribe they attached to, and their children are fully Jewish/children of Israel.   So, no Gentiles entered the promised land with Joshua.

 

As far as the strangers and foreigners, these were Gentiles who either lived in the land of Israel, or were visiting or travelling thru, or doing business in Israel.   

 

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. ⁹ Six days you shall labor and do all your work, ¹⁰ but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

 

Note the non-children of Israel commanded to not work on the Sabbath are servants of children of Israel, and sojourners who are staying with the children of Israel.  

 

 

Exodus 31:13 “But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 

...

¹⁶  So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’ ¹⁷ It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”  

God spoke to the children of Israel concerning the Sabbaths, to observe them as a sign between God and Israel, for all of the generations of Israel, to separate Israel.

 

This of course is all Mosaic covenant, made with the children of Israel. Each set of commands are very specific as to who is obligated in the Mosaic covenant. The sign of the Sabbath was for Israel, but everyone residing in the land, had to rest on the 7th day. So, for the Sabbath, we have some very specific instructions. Non-Jewish people/Gentiles who are not in the land of Israel are never commanded to rest on the 7th day, and Gentiles are never told that the Sabbath is a sign between them and God.   

Fast forward to the New Covenant, which is equally available to both Jew and Gentile, the Sabbath is not a command in the New Covenant, and is not a sign of the New Covenant. The New Covenant is given to born again believers in Jesus. Born again believers are both Jew and Gentiles, equally blessed in the New Covenant, with no distinguishing of linage. In otherwords Gentiles do not become Jews and Jews do not become Gentiles in the New Covenant.

Hopefully, no one who is born again binds themselves to the children of Israel, most of whom at this time are not born again, but instead, binds themselves to the One who brought the New Covenant, Jesus/Yeshua.    

[Donibm]

 

QUESTION: where is it HISTORICALLY or SCRIPTURALLY required that the Church, which is clearly predominantly Gentile, return its "Hebrew Roots"?

 

I don't need or ask for much, but evidence from the writing of the Early Church (50AD - 300AD) along with the Scriptures ... would suffice.  Without these things, it all seems like a sprinkle of modern day Judaizing to me.  Gnostic even.  In fact ... I've dealt with this many times over the last 20 years.  The opposite is true.  But, it doesn't hurt for elements of "academics" in a scholastic setting, but to try to return the CHURCH to "Hebraic roots" .... absolutely not a requirement or a commandment.

 

There would be no need in scripture to say that the Church should return to Hebrew roots, as the church, in the time of scripture were already aware and practicing 'Hebrew roots'. The first believers were Jewish and had practiced according to the OT, moving to the NT. They would know and recognize the Jewishness in Christianity, and the Jewish believers would have explained the practice and meaning of Jesus in light of the fulfillments in the OT. So, the question would not be a reminder of Hebrew roots, as that was already normal in Christian practice. The better question would be, 'when did the Church abandon Hebrew roots?' 

 

For that answer, we go to 325 ce, the first council of Nicea. At that time Constantine was able to influence the result of the council and his influence had an anti-Jewish bend. Letters were written to the churches to cease any practice which was related to the Jews or Judaism. So, in 325 ce, the church intentionally abandoned 'Hebrew roots'.

 

The following are quotes from a paper (English translation) of various decrees and letters written from the 1st council of Nicea. 

 

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/nicea1.txt

 

We further proclaim to you the good news of the agreement

concerning the holy Easter, that this particular also has through your

prayers been rightly settled; so that all our brethren in the East who

formerly followed the custom of the Jews are henceforth to celebrate

the said most sacred feast of Easter at the same time with the Romans

and yourselves and all those who have observed Easter from the

beginning.

 

(The change from celebrating the NT Passover to the Easter as well as changing the timing of the celebration so it no longer coincided with Passover).

 

 

CANON LII.

Usury and the base seeking of worldly gain is forbidden to the clergy,

also conversation and fellowship with Jews.

(Forbidding the clergy to fellowship or even talk with the Jewish people).

 

ON THE KEEPING OF EASTER.

From the Letter of the Emperor to all those not present at the Council.

(Found in Eusebius, Vita Const., Lib. iii., 18-20.)

 

 

When the question relative to the sacred festival of Easter arose, it was

universally thought that it would be convenient that all should keep the

feast on one day; for what could be more beautiful and more desirable,

than to see this festival, through which we receive the hope of

immortality, celebrated by all with one accord, and in the same

manner? It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the

holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom[the calculation] of the

Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and

whose minds were blinded. In rejecting their custom,(1) we may

transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter,

which we have observed from the time of the Saviour's Passion to the

present day[according to the day of the week]. We ought not,

therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour

has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and

more convenient course(the order of the days of the week); and

consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest

brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the

Jews,

 

So, the church today celebrates in a manner which has been passed down from the council of Nicea, which intentionally removed anything related to the Jewish people from Christianity. Jewish roots is actually a return to pre-Nicea Christianity. Or at least an awareness of the original practices and meanings known by the early Christians. Does this return alter the understanding of Jesus? Not in the fundamentals of the gospel of salvation, and the awareness does not effect a persons salvation one way or the other. Salvation is by faith alone in Yeshua alone. But, it does help to put a fair amount of NT scripture into context as the NT and OT are all one book, with continuing themes and explanations.  

 

So, no, you will not find and admonition in scripture to return to Hebrew roots as the church had not left Hebrew roots when scripture was written.  

 

Now, what is Judaizing? It was the practice of certain people in NT times to go to Gentile believers and tell them they must be circumcised. Ritual circumcision was 'becoming Jewish'. The Judaizers thought the Gentile believers needed to become Jewish and observe the Mosaic law. To be obligated to observing the Mosaic law one had to be Jewish/ritually circumcised. Jewish roots is not circumcision and Gentiles being obligated to the law, but rather an understanding of the progression of the early Jewish church from the OT to a NT understanding as practiced by the pre-Nicea church.

 

 

 

Well, I certainly do not see it as you do.

 

What is see is GRACE come in where the LAW once was in the Scriptures.

 

What I see is that the Spirit is the greater guide than the taskmaster (Law) in the Scriptures.

 

What I see is the Church not observing the Sabbath in the Scriptures.

 

What I see is the Church not being careful for food in the Scriptures.

 

What I see is that the Old Covenant has become ANTIQUATED in the Scriptures.

 

What is see is Scriptures talking about NOT observing rudiments and oblations.

 

What I see is God Himself saying that He's sick of all the oblations, but wants justice, do what is right, defend the widows and the fatherless, feed the poor, etc ... in both the Hebrew and the Greek texts.

 

What I see is God seeking TRUE WORSHIPERS, not those bound by those other things.

 

What I see are Scriptures telling the saints to NOT go back into all those oblations.  Galatians is clear about it.  So is Colosians. Paul was adament about it.  

 

What I see is Paul telling off Peter to his very face, saying Peter was WRONG for trying to make Gentiles behave like Jews.  Have you not read these things?

 

What I see are Messianic Prophecies in the Scriptures clearly showing that "My Name will be great among the Gentiles" and that the Gentiles would saturate the New Covenant.

 

What I know is that not even Judaism suggest the things some of you people suggest.  Not even Judaism demands this.  Judaism only requires that Gentiles observe the 7 laws of Noah, nothing else.

 

What is see is that not even the early Church suggested what some of you suggest, clearly seen in the Book of Acts, and that was the Council of the Elders, Peter, Paul, Baranabus, James, Simeon, etc, etc.  They ALL agreed that no such burden should be placed on the Gentile converts.

 

 What I see is the Scriptures clearly discussing these things, people who say "touch not!" and "taste not!"  Paul makes it painfully clear that those oblations may look righteous on the outside, but they do NOTHING to restrain men from sensual indulgence.

 

I don't know what modern day Judaizers are talking about when they suggest that the Church abandoned "Hebrew roots" when the Scripture themselves are clearly against such an opinion.  There is only ONE Root in Christendom, and that is Christ.  And He is the Son of God ... not some "Jew", and Jesus never, ever, pushed that Sacred names Movement of Judaizing foolishness on His Church, nor did any of His followers.

 

**************

 

Constantine is ignored.  I deliberately used the dates of 50AD - 300AD because I'm not green at this.  I know how people like to try to make the foundation of the CATHOLIC INSTITUTION the Church.  It is not.  I have records of the Early Church, which predate the very birth of Constatine.  These records are not the Church that Constantine developed (which later evolved into the Vatican, which is drunk with the blood of the saints anyway).  And this isn't about Easter or Christmas or other such nonesense.  Furthermore, you err in thinking that JEWS didn't add a whole bunch of observances and oblations.  Have you ever - ever - read through the lengthy pages of the Talmud?  have you looked at Judaism lately.  Do you even know what it takes to convert? Did you not read the Scriptures that clearly showed that even in Jesus' time, they had a ton or rudiments set up BY MEN?  Did you not read that in the Scriptures?

 

They observed a lot more than what Moses gave them - a LOT more.  They added to what Moses gave them.  Ever wonder why Jews do not drive on the Sabbath?  Because to themNone of which was given to them by God.  So, please don't insert things like Easter and Christmas or whatnot because when that dust settles, what the Catholic Church did is inconsequential.  Good Friday is about the crucifixion of our Lord.  Easter to us is the celebration of the death and resurrection of our Lord.  Christmas is the celebration of His birth.

 

Do these in REMEMBRANCE of Me.

 

Tell me, when was the last time you washed a saints feet?  Jesus commanded that.  Not some "Rabbi" or Judaism, or some priest of the Catholic Institution.

 

*****************

 

FACT: Christianity is NOT~NOT~NOT~NOT Judaism.

 

Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. All the crap that Judaism has INSERTED (no, you didn't focus on them at all, but I know) means nothing.  When the smoke clears, there is only ONE CORE, and that is the MESSIAH.  if Judaism cannot show a MESSIAH, it is a complete failure.  Christianity shows that Messiah ... and HE did not come through feast, oblations or ceremonies.

 

 

 

 

DISCLAIMER: I disagree SHARPLY with modern day Judaizing ... or Judaizing of any kind.  Jews are not innocent of this.  But these days, you have Hebrew Israelites trying.  You have offshoots of the failed Sacred Names Movement trying.  You have elements of the Seventh Day Adventists groups trying.  Observe, however, the only group that does not do it .. are the JEWS!  Have any of you actually considered that, or wondered why?  Judaism is not Christianity.  Christainty is NOT a 'Jewish' religion, nor was it ever established by Jesus to be Jewish.  Never.  Judaism doesn't care, nor does it require anything more than the 7 laws of Noah.  So, where in the world are all the unchurched, unlearned, loud opinions about returning to Hebrew roots that they themselves don't even know about coming from?  Is this why Paul wrote "O you foolish Galatians!"?  ... I can certainly understand his frustration.

 

Again, I am sharply against it, just as Paul and his companions were against it, telling Peter off to his very face for doing it.  I cannot stand bad teachings in the Church.  And yes, I know the this falls in line with prophecy of the latter days, and the great falling away, and failing to heed sound doctrine.  But I can't stand false or wrong teachings.  This does NOT mean, that I cannot stand the person who speaks it.  My words are hard, uncompromising even, and I doubt I'd ever change.  But please do not take it personally.  it is the TEACHING and the THOUGHT that I disdain, not the person who keeps them.

 

Turn back from your distractions.  You oblation and rudiments will not restrain you from doing or thinking evil.  They will do nothing for your Salvation.  Why go backwards and observe what the Church was NOT even observing, clearly seen in the Scriptures?  Or do I need to post the Scriptures ... over and over and over again?  Why should I?  The Redeemed have a measure of the Spirit.  Can't His sheep hear His voice?

[Qnts2]

 

 

QUESTION: where is it HISTORICALLY or SCRIPTURALLY required that the Church, which is clearly predominantly Gentile, return its "Hebrew Roots"?

 

I don't need or ask for much, but evidence from the writing of the Early Church (50AD - 300AD) along with the Scriptures ... would suffice.  Without these things, it all seems like a sprinkle of modern day Judaizing to me.  Gnostic even.  In fact ... I've dealt with this many times over the last 20 years.  The opposite is true.  But, it doesn't hurt for elements of "academics" in a scholastic setting, but to try to return the CHURCH to "Hebraic roots" .... absolutely not a requirement or a commandment.

 

There would be no need in scripture to say that the Church should return to Hebrew roots, as the church, in the time of scripture were already aware and practicing 'Hebrew roots'. The first believers were Jewish and had practiced according to the OT, moving to the NT. They would know and recognize the Jewishness in Christianity, and the Jewish believers would have explained the practice and meaning of Jesus in light of the fulfillments in the OT. So, the question would not be a reminder of Hebrew roots, as that was already normal in Christian practice. The better question would be, 'when did the Church abandon Hebrew roots?' 

 

For that answer, we go to 325 ce, the first council of Nicea. At that time Constantine was able to influence the result of the council and his influence had an anti-Jewish bend. Letters were written to the churches to cease any practice which was related to the Jews or Judaism. So, in 325 ce, the church intentionally abandoned 'Hebrew roots'.

 

The following are quotes from a paper (English translation) of various decrees and letters written from the 1st council of Nicea. 

 

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/nicea1.txt

 

We further proclaim to you the good news of the agreement

concerning the holy Easter, that this particular also has through your

prayers been rightly settled; so that all our brethren in the East who

formerly followed the custom of the Jews are henceforth to celebrate

the said most sacred feast of Easter at the same time with the Romans

and yourselves and all those who have observed Easter from the

beginning.

 

(The change from celebrating the NT Passover to the Easter as well as changing the timing of the celebration so it no longer coincided with Passover).

 

 

CANON LII.

Usury and the base seeking of worldly gain is forbidden to the clergy,

also conversation and fellowship with Jews.

(Forbidding the clergy to fellowship or even talk with the Jewish people).

 

ON THE KEEPING OF EASTER.

From the Letter of the Emperor to all those not present at the Council.

(Found in Eusebius, Vita Const., Lib. iii., 18-20.)

 

 

When the question relative to the sacred festival of Easter arose, it was

universally thought that it would be convenient that all should keep the

feast on one day; for what could be more beautiful and more desirable,

than to see this festival, through which we receive the hope of

immortality, celebrated by all with one accord, and in the same

manner? It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the

holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom[the calculation] of the

Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and

whose minds were blinded. In rejecting their custom,(1) we may

transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter,

which we have observed from the time of the Saviour's Passion to the

present day[according to the day of the week]. We ought not,

therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour

has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and

more convenient course(the order of the days of the week); and

consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest

brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the

Jews,

 

So, the church today celebrates in a manner which has been passed down from the council of Nicea, which intentionally removed anything related to the Jewish people from Christianity. Jewish roots is actually a return to pre-Nicea Christianity. Or at least an awareness of the original practices and meanings known by the early Christians. Does this return alter the understanding of Jesus? Not in the fundamentals of the gospel of salvation, and the awareness does not effect a persons salvation one way or the other. Salvation is by faith alone in Yeshua alone. But, it does help to put a fair amount of NT scripture into context as the NT and OT are all one book, with continuing themes and explanations.  

 

So, no, you will not find and admonition in scripture to return to Hebrew roots as the church had not left Hebrew roots when scripture was written.  

 

Now, what is Judaizing? It was the practice of certain people in NT times to go to Gentile believers and tell them they must be circumcised. Ritual circumcision was 'becoming Jewish'. The Judaizers thought the Gentile believers needed to become Jewish and observe the Mosaic law. To be obligated to observing the Mosaic law one had to be Jewish/ritually circumcised. Jewish roots is not circumcision and Gentiles being obligated to the law, but rather an understanding of the progression of the early Jewish church from the OT to a NT understanding as practiced by the pre-Nicea church.

 

 

 

Well, I certainly do not see it as you do.

 

What is see is GRACE come in where the LAW once was in the Scriptures.

 

What I see is that the Spirit is the greater guide than the taskmaster (Law) in the Scriptures.

 

What I see is the Church not observing the Sabbath in the Scriptures.

 

What I see is the Church not being careful for food in the Scriptures.

 

What I see is that the Old Covenant has become ANTIQUATED in the Scriptures.

 

What is see is Scriptures talking about NOT observing rudiments and oblations.

 

What I see is God Himself saying that He's sick of all the oblations, but wants justice, do what is right, defend the widows and the fatherless, feed the poor, etc ... in both the Hebrew and the Greek texts.

 

What I see is God seeking TRUE WORSHIPERS, not those bound by those other things.

 

What I see are Scriptures telling the saints to NOT go back into all those oblations.  Galatians is clear about it.  So is Colosians. Paul was adament about it.  

 

What I see is Paul telling off Peter to his very face, saying Peter was WRONG for trying to make Gentiles behave like Jews.  Have you not read these things?

 

What I see are Messianic Prophecies in the Scriptures clearly showing that "My Name will be great among the Gentiles" and that the Gentiles would saturate the New Covenant.

 

What I know is that not even Judaism suggest the things some of you people suggest.  Not even Judaism demands this.  Judaism only requires that Gentiles observe the 7 laws of Noah, nothing else.

 

What is see is that not even the early Church suggested what some of you suggest, clearly seen in the Book of Acts, and that was the Council of the Elders, Peter, Paul, Baranabus, James, Simeon, etc, etc.  They ALL agreed that no such burden should be placed on the Gentile converts.

 

 What I see is the Scriptures clearly discussing these things, people who say "touch not!" and "taste not!"  Paul makes it painfully clear that those oblations may look righteous on the outside, but they do NOTHING to restrain men from sensual indulgence.

 

I don't know what modern day Judaizers are talking about when they suggest that the Church abandoned "Hebrew roots" when the Scripture themselves are clearly against such an opinion.  There is only ONE Root in Christendom, and that is Christ.  And He is the Son of God ... not some "Jew", and Jesus never, ever, pushed that Sacred names Movement of Judaizing foolishness on His Church, nor did any of His followers.

 

**************

 

Constantine is ignored.  I deliberately used the dates of 50AD - 300AD because I'm not green at this.  I know how people like to try to make the foundation of the CATHOLIC INSTITUTION the Church.  It is not.  I have records of the Early Church, which predate the very birth of Constatine.  These records are not the Church that Constantine developed (which later evolved into the Vatican, which is drunk with the blood of the saints anyway).  And this isn't about Easter or Christmas or other such nonesense.  Furthermore, you err in thinking that JEWS didn't add a whole bunch of observances and oblations.  Have you ever - ever - read through the lengthy pages of the Talmud?  have you looked at Judaism lately.  Do you even know what it takes to convert? Did you not read the Scriptures that clearly showed that even in Jesus' time, they had a ton or rudiments set up BY MEN?  Did you not read that in the Scriptures?

 

They observed a lot more than what Moses gave them - a LOT more.  They added to what Moses gave them.  Ever wonder why Jews do not drive on the Sabbath?  Because to themNone of which was given to them by God.  So, please don't insert things like Easter and Christmas or whatnot because when that dust settles, what the Catholic Church did is inconsequential.  Good Friday is about the crucifixion of our Lord.  Easter to us is the celebration of the death and resurrection of our Lord.  Christmas is the celebration of His birth.

 

Do these in REMEMBRANCE of Me.

 

Tell me, when was the last time you washed a saints feet?  Jesus commanded that.  Not some "Rabbi" or Judaism, or some priest of the Catholic Institution.

 

*****************

 

FACT: Christianity is NOT~NOT~NOT~NOT Judaism.

 

Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. All the crap that Judaism has INSERTED (no, you didn't focus on them at all, but I know) means nothing.  When the smoke clears, there is only ONE CORE, and that is the MESSIAH.  if Judaism cannot show a MESSIAH, it is a complete failure.  Christianity shows that Messiah ... and HE did not come through feast, oblations or ceremonies.

 

 

 

 

DISCLAIMER: I disagree SHARPLY with modern day Judaizing ... or Judaizing of any kind.  Jews are not innocent of this.  But these days, you have Hebrew Israelites trying.  You have offshoots of the failed Sacred Names Movement trying.  You have elements of the Seventh Day Adventists groups trying.  Observe, however, the only group that does not do it .. are the JEWS!  Have any of you actually considered that, or wondered why?  Judaism is not Christianity.  Christainty is NOT a 'Jewish' religion, nor was it ever established by Jesus to be Jewish.  Never.  Judaism doesn't care, nor does it require anything more than the 7 laws of Noah.  So, where in the world are all the unchurched, unlearned, loud opinions about returning to Hebrew roots that they themselves don't even know about coming from?  Is this why Paul wrote "O you foolish Galatians!"?  ... I can certainly understand his frustration.

 

Again, I am sharply against it, just as Paul and his companions were against it, telling Peter off to his very face for doing it.  I cannot stand bad teachings in the Church.  And yes, I know the this falls in line with prophecy of the latter days, and the great falling away, and failing to heed sound doctrine.  But I can't stand false or wrong teachings.  This does NOT mean, that I cannot stand the person who speaks it.  My words are hard, uncompromising even, and I doubt I'd ever change.  But please do not take it personally.  it is the TEACHING and the THOUGHT that I disdain, not the person who keeps them.

 

Turn back from your distractions.  You oblation and rudiments will not restrain you from doing or thinking evil.  They will do nothing for your Salvation.  Why go backwards and observe what the Church was NOT even observing, clearly seen in the Scriptures?  Or do I need to post the Scriptures ... over and over and over again?  Why should I?  The Redeemed have a measure of the Spirit.  Can't His sheep hear His voice?

 

 

Then what you are seeing is the result of the Council of Nicea and a lot of propoganda.

 

First of all, the New Covenant is not the Mosaic covenant, but the NT does show Christians celebrating the NT Passover, and other so-called Jewish celebrations, until the council of Nicea got rid of all things Jewish, branding them as obsolete and backwards, but these so-called Jewish things were given by God, and carried forward with a new meaning in the New Covenant.

 

While the sheep do hear His voice, they also hear the voice of other Christians who carry with them a lot of traditions passed down thru the churches. For me, it is easy to see these strange traditions because I wasn't raised in the church so I was not indoctrinated. I wondered where this stuff came from, because it is not found in scripture, and the first place I find these odd traditions to have been introduced is at the 1st council of Nicea, which introduced and 'anything but Jewish' view.

[Donibm]

 

QUESTION: where is it HISTORICALLY or SCRIPTURALLY required that the Church, which is clearly predominantly Gentile, return its "Hebrew Roots"?

 

I don't need or ask for much, but evidence from the writing of the Early Church (50AD - 300AD) along with the Scriptures ... would suffice.  Without these things, it all seems like a sprinkle of modern day Judaizing to me.  Gnostic even.  In fact ... I've dealt with this many times over the last 20 years.  The opposite is true.  But, it doesn't hurt for elements of "academics" in a scholastic setting, but to try to return the CHURCH to "Hebraic roots" .... absolutely not a requirement or a commandment.

 

Think of it more as returning to the roots of our faith.

 

The "Church" over the early centuries drifted away from customs and practices that were founded in Scripture, replacing them with customs and practices of their pagan ways.

 

While I have nothing against redeeming your own culture, reapplying symbols to new foundation meanings and the like, to completely reject the character and flavor of the faith from which we began is pretty lame. More so, we lose out on the significance of Christ's fulfillment when we don't understand the foundations which pointed the way to Him.

 

 

I hear ya.  lol

 

The roots of our faith is in Jesus, not oblations which He Himself said were riddled with human insertions.  For example, do you know why Jews walk to the synagogue on the Sabbath?  Because the Law of Moses says to not kindle a fire.  But Jews think that the combustion under their cars hood is "lighting a fire".  Same thing with travelling beyond a certain distance, and a host of other things the Sanhedrin added to Judaism.  And heaven help you if it rains, cause you are not supposed to carry an umbrella on the Sabbath (or anything else).  Did you know that these "Hebrew Roots" you are talking about are the Pharisees walking around with their heads down, bumping into people?  LOL!  Do you know why they did that?  Because they didn't want to see a woman and lust after her.  Is that foolishness what you want?  Is that going to save your soul?  Is this why Jesus calls us to?  Is THAT what he died for?  How angry God must be to free men from something, and they go right back to it.  

 

It's not as funny as some think ... not when you see it as God sees it.

 

Oh!  So, now you know why Jesus was probably telling them about a story of their son falling into a ditch.  Boys taking on the man-made oblations of their foolish fathers, not looking where he was going, and into the ditch he falls.  To think otherwise, is to fall into distractions.  And distractions take your eyes off of the Cross.  And the Cross is GODS DOING, so or course He is angry with anything that distracts you from it.

 

Don't think for a second that Jews have not added crazy things to their religion.

 

Did you know that the Talmud says that our Lord (assuming you are a repented, born-again believer) is in Hell?  That Mary is a whore.  And that Joseph was a fool?  But you want to adopt from Judaism ... which hates our Lord and Savior?  ... I'll have no part of it.

 

FACT: Christianity is NOT Judaism.

 

OK, let Gods Word speak for itself.  I could post multiple Scriptures, Acts, Galatians, etc.  But Col 2 might sum it all up nicely.

 

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. ... 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; ... 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God 

 

Verses 20-23 are key!!

 

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?  Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

 

Yes, they do appear to have an IMAGE of Godliness, but they are all vain and perishing, and have NO part in causing to you to restrain yourself from sensual indulgence.

 

If a Christian wants to bicker over easter, or Christmas, or good friday, or what the Catholic Church did, not even knowing the stand of Judaism concerning these things, then I say that Christian has lost sight of the important core of Salvation.

[Qnts2]

 

 

QUESTION: where is it HISTORICALLY or SCRIPTURALLY required that the Church, which is clearly predominantly Gentile, return its "Hebrew Roots"?

 

I don't need or ask for much, but evidence from the writing of the Early Church (50AD - 300AD) along with the Scriptures ... would suffice.  Without these things, it all seems like a sprinkle of modern day Judaizing to me.  Gnostic even.  In fact ... I've dealt with this many times over the last 20 years.  The opposite is true.  But, it doesn't hurt for elements of "academics" in a scholastic setting, but to try to return the CHURCH to "Hebraic roots" .... absolutely not a requirement or a commandment.

 

Think of it more as returning to the roots of our faith.

 

The "Church" over the early centuries drifted away from customs and practices that were founded in Scripture, replacing them with customs and practices of their pagan ways.

 

While I have nothing against redeeming your own culture, reapplying symbols to new foundation meanings and the like, to completely reject the character and flavor of the faith from which we began is pretty lame. More so, we lose out on the significance of Christ's fulfillment when we don't understand the foundations which pointed the way to Him.

 

 

I hear ya.  lol

 

The roots of our faith is in Jesus, not oblations which He Himself said were riddled with human insertions.  For example, do you know why Jews walk to the synagogue on the Sabbath?  Because the Law of Moses says to not kindle a fire.  But Jews think that the combustion under their cars hood is "lighting a fire".  Same thing with travelling beyond a certain distance, and a host of other things the Sanhedrin added to Judaism.  And heaven help you if it rains, cause you are not supposed to carry an umbrella on the Sabbath (or anything else).  Did you know that these "Hebrew Roots" you are talking about are the Pharisees walking around with their heads down, bumping into people?  LOL!  Do you know why they did that?  Because they didn't want to see a woman and lust after her.  Is that foolishness what you want?  Is that going to save your soul?  Is this why Jesus calls us to?  Is THAT what he died for?  How angry God must be to free men from something, and they go right back to it.  

 

It's not as funny as some think ... not when you see it as God sees it.

 

Oh!  So, now you know why Jesus was probably telling them about a story of their son falling into a ditch.  Boys taking on the man-made oblations of their foolish fathers, not looking where he was going, and into the ditch he falls.  To think otherwise, is to fall into distractions.  And distractions take your eyes off of the Cross.  And the Cross is GODS DOING, so or course He is angry with anything that distracts you from it.

 

Don't think for a second that Jews have not added crazy things to their religion.

 

Did you know that the Talmud says that our Lord (assuming you are a repented, born-again believer) is in Hell?  That Mary is a whore.  And that Joseph was a fool?  But you want to adopt from Judaism ... which hates our Lord and Savior?  ... I'll have no part of it.

 

FACT: Christianity is NOT Judaism.

 

OK, let Gods Word speak for itself.  I could post multiple Scriptures, Acts, Galatians, etc.  But Col 2 might sum it all up nicely.

 

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. ... 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; ... 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God 

 

Verses 20-23 are key!!

 

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?  Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

 

Yes, they do appear to have an IMAGE of Godliness, but they are all vain and perishing, and have NO part in causing to you to restrain yourself from sensual indulgence.

 

If a Christian wants to bicker over easter, or Christmas, or good friday, or what the Catholic Church did, not even knowing the stand of Judaism concerning these things, then I say that Christian has lost sight of the important core of Salvation.

 

 

I will just say, that this post is riddled with misrepresentations of Messianic Judaism, Jewish roots, and even One Law Hebrew roots. Plus, a misunderstanding of Judaism and Halachah, as well as scripture. All kinds of gross accusations which are not accurate.  

 

I object strongly because it is these kinds of things which gives Christianity a bad name.

[Donibm]

 

QUESTION: where is it HISTORICALLY or SCRIPTURALLY required that the Church, which is clearly predominantly Gentile, return its "Hebrew Roots"?

I don't need or ask for much, but evidence from the writing of the Early Church (50AD - 300AD) along with the Scriptures ... would suffice. Without these things, it all seems like a sprinkle of modern day Judaizing to me. Gnostic even. In fact ... I've dealt with this many times over the last 20 years. The opposite is true. But, it doesn't hurt for elements of "academics" in a scholastic setting, but to try to return the CHURCH to "Hebraic roots" .... absolutely not a requirement or a commandment.

The following post by Q answered your question beautifully. I agree with Q. Try to put yourself living in the time period from 33 ad to 332 AD. If you were a Gentile back then, what was it like? I think your answers will explain what the Hebrew Roots is all about - pre council of nicea, pre Constantine.

I'm curious, why would you follow anything that came out of that council?

 

 

 

Better you focus on what the Word of God says than what you think occurred in the Council.  

 

Do you know the "fish" symbol on the back of peoples cars?  They used that as a sign that they were Christians ... because we were "outlawed".  Do you know that is how the Roman Church before and during and after Constantine (which is now the Vatican) infiltrated Christians - pretending to be one - and brutally tortured and killed them?

 

Did you know that True Christianity was driven underground?

 

Did you know the Early Church stood AGAINST them and their distortions?

 

Did you know that even Sunday worship itself was established on the very first day the Church began (Day or Pentecost) and how they continued to gather on the Lords day (first, and eight day) ... long before the Vatican existed?  These things are clearly seen in Scriptures.

 

SCRIPTURES.

 

All I asked for is SCRIPTURAL or HISTORICAL {{{evidence}}} that there is a call to go back to Hebrew roots.  Since none of you can provide it, than at least refute the SCRIPTURES and indication of SCRIPTURES that I presented.  If you cannot, well, you cannot.  Its not an argument or stance against YOU, but against the teaching you hold.  I can put it into question form if you like - I'm very good at that.  And here are a few.  Why aren't any of you dealing with SPECIFICS?  Where are your Scriptures to support you?  I'm posting Scriptures, at least, stating what is IN the Bible.  Where is your solid rock on returning to "Hebrew roots'?  What exactly are you saying the Church strayed away from?  I suppose Jesus was misguided when he said that "governments of Hell would never prevail"?  Is that what you are suggesting ... that Jesus is a liar and wrong?

 

What Hebrew roots did Jesus present?  Fact is, he did the opposite, evidenced in multiple places including His lesson on the Samaritan and the Jew.

 

Seems to me, that none of you who promote this even know that neither the Church NOR Judaism (to this very day) suggest what you do.  Only cult groups do.  Hebrew Israelites. Certain SDA groups.  Sacred names movement.  Certain Messianic Jews (not to be confused for "Christian Jews"), etc.  all of them are self-deluded "Keepers of the Law" ... yet most of them don't even know how to properly keep the Sabbath.  Just ONE oblation, and they can't even get THAT right. 

 

The Church is not riddled with fools and dummies and uneducated people.  Many know more about Church history than you and I ever will know in our entire life ... and their stance against Judaizing is the same as my own.

 

Scriptures and historical context please. That is all I've asked for.  If you cannot post them, at least provide a rebuttal of the Scriptures I have already presented.  I'm not asking for much.  I can, at any time, post ALL the Scriptures I've suggested thus far, clearly showing that the Early Church.

 

There are so many Scriptures that disagree with you.

 

Clearly seen in Galatians, Acts and Colossians.

 

Or, how do you explain Paul telling Peter off to his face?  if Paul was alive today, what do you think he would be saying to YOU right now?  You, friend, are no honored member like Peter.  So, if he told Peter off to his very face ... what would he do with you?  Cast you out of the Church (yup, he did that too).

 

And what did Peter say?  Peter AGREED WITH PAUL!!!  Peter himself wrote that, sure, some of what Paul writes is difficult to understand, but it is ALL OF GOD!  

 

And what again in the Book of Acts, prior to this?  didn't Peter and Paul AGREE that the Gentile converts were NOT to adhere to all those Jewish oblations?  They sure did.

 

And what about the oblations themselves?  I'm sorry, but you do realize that FOUR TIMES in the Hebrew Scriptures it shows that they are given to the Jews and the Jews alone to observe - not othre nations?

 

Please stop using the Council as a crutch.  I'm talking about what happened long before Constantine was even born.  Constantine is both inconsequential and irrelevant to the material I have, and certainly to the Scriptures.

 

 

Again, I'm not against YOU, I am against bad TEACHINGS.  Please do not take my firm stance as opposition to you.  But do take me as an uncompromising Christian, one who is firmly against ANY form of Judaizing - ancient, modern or futuristic.  I stand with the apostles and disciples on this.

 

 

Now, if you want to discuss easter, good friday, christmas specifically, that's fine.  We can do that too.  But ya'll are sending mixed messages.  One minute you talk about Hebrew roots (which are not for you Gentiles to observe anyway - proof is in the Hebrew Scriptures) and the next minute you want to talk about what was ADDED.  Pick one please.  What hebrew roots exactly are you talking about?

[Fez]

 

 

 

QUESTION: where is it HISTORICALLY or SCRIPTURALLY required that the Church, which is clearly predominantly Gentile, return its "Hebrew Roots"?

 

I don't need or ask for much, but evidence from the writing of the Early Church (50AD - 300AD) along with the Scriptures ... would suffice.  Without these things, it all seems like a sprinkle of modern day Judaizing to me.  Gnostic even.  In fact ... I've dealt with this many times over the last 20 years.  The opposite is true.  But, it doesn't hurt for elements of "academics" in a scholastic setting, but to try to return the CHURCH to "Hebraic roots" .... absolutely not a requirement or a commandment.

 

Think of it more as returning to the roots of our faith.

 

The "Church" over the early centuries drifted away from customs and practices that were founded in Scripture, replacing them with customs and practices of their pagan ways.

 

While I have nothing against redeeming your own culture, reapplying symbols to new foundation meanings and the like, to completely reject the character and flavor of the faith from which we began is pretty lame. More so, we lose out on the significance of Christ's fulfillment when we don't understand the foundations which pointed the way to Him.

 

 

I hear ya.  lol

 

The roots of our faith is in Jesus, not oblations which He Himself said were riddled with human insertions.  For example, do you know why Jews walk to the synagogue on the Sabbath?  Because the Law of Moses says to not kindle a fire.  But Jews think that the combustion under their cars hood is "lighting a fire".  Same thing with travelling beyond a certain distance, and a host of other things the Sanhedrin added to Judaism.  And heaven help you if it rains, cause you are not supposed to carry an umbrella on the Sabbath (or anything else).  Did you know that these "Hebrew Roots" you are talking about are the Pharisees walking around with their heads down, bumping into people?  LOL!  Do you know why they did that?  Because they didn't want to see a woman and lust after her.  Is that foolishness what you want?  Is that going to save your soul?  Is this why Jesus calls us to?  Is THAT what he died for?  How angry God must be to free men from something, and they go right back to it.  

 

It's not as funny as some think ... not when you see it as God sees it.

 

Oh!  So, now you know why Jesus was probably telling them about a story of their son falling into a ditch.  Boys taking on the man-made oblations of their foolish fathers, not looking where he was going, and into the ditch he falls.  To think otherwise, is to fall into distractions.  And distractions take your eyes off of the Cross.  And the Cross is GODS DOING, so or course He is angry with anything that distracts you from it.

 

Don't think for a second that Jews have not added crazy things to their religion.

 

Did you know that the Talmud says that our Lord (assuming you are a repented, born-again believer) is in Hell?  That Mary is a whore.  And that Joseph was a fool?  But you want to adopt from Judaism ... which hates our Lord and Savior?  ... I'll have no part of it.

 

FACT: Christianity is NOT Judaism.

 

OK, let Gods Word speak for itself.  I could post multiple Scriptures, Acts, Galatians, etc.  But Col 2 might sum it all up nicely.

 

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. ... 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; ... 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God 

 

Verses 20-23 are key!!

 

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?  Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

 

Yes, they do appear to have an IMAGE of Godliness, but they are all vain and perishing, and have NO part in causing to you to restrain yourself from sensual indulgence.

 

If a Christian wants to bicker over easter, or Christmas, or good friday, or what the Catholic Church did, not even knowing the stand of Judaism concerning these things, then I say that Christian has lost sight of the important core of Salvation.

 

 

I will just say, that this post is riddled with misrepresentations of Messianic Judaism, Jewish roots, and even One Law Hebrew roots. Plus, a misunderstanding of Judaism and Halachah, as well as scripture. All kinds of gross accusations which are not accurate.  

 

I object strongly because it is these kinds of things which gives Christianity a bad name.

 

I too find the post to be very general in approach. There is no one cap fits all here.

 

Donibm, you are aware that Worthy is a Ministry site run out of Israel right?

[nebula]

Hello Donibm,

Do you realize your posts come across sounding very snobbish? It truly is not the best method for arguing your case. In fact, it turns people off.

Please reconsider how you respond, OK?

 

I hear ya.  lol
 
The roots of our faith is in Jesus, not oblations which He Himself said were riddled with human insertions.  For example, do you know why Jews walk to the synagogue on the Sabbath?  Because the Law of Moses says to not kindle a fire.  But Jews think that the combustion under their cars hood is "lighting a fire".  Same thing with travelling beyond a certain distance, and a host of other things the Sanhedrin added to Judaism.  And heaven help you if it rains, cause you are not supposed to carry an umbrella on the Sabbath (or anything else).  Did you know that these "Hebrew Roots" you are talking about are the Pharisees walking around with their heads down, bumping into people?  LOL!  Do you know why they did that?  Because they didn't want to see a woman and lust after her.  Is that foolishness what you want?  Is that going to save your soul?  Is this why Jesus calls us to?  Is THAT what he died for?  How angry God must be to free men from something, and they go right back to it.  
 
It's not as funny as some think ... not when you see it as God sees it.

First of all, none of us are advocating those crazy rules and regulation that were added to the Torah.

Second, how can you explain the need for Jesus death and resurrection, the concept of atonement, and the symbolism of Jesus as the Lamb of God without the appreciation for the sacrifices and the Passover celebration? How can you even understand Communion (what is "the bread" and what is "the cup" that Jesus spoke of, and why do they have special meaning?) without understanding the Passover meal?

 

Oh!  So, now you know why Jesus was probably telling them about a story of their son falling into a ditch.  Boys taking on the man-made oblations of their foolish fathers, not looking where he was going, and into the ditch he falls.  To think otherwise, is to fall into distractions.  And distractions take your eyes off of the Cross.  And the Cross is GODS DOING, so or course He is angry with anything that distracts you from it.
 
Don't think for a second that Jews have not added crazy things to their religion.
 
Did you know that the Talmud says that our Lord (assuming you are a repented, born-again believer) is in Hell?  That Mary is a whore.  And that Joseph was a fool?

We are speaking of what is written in Torah, not the Talmud.

Again, please explain how the Cross makes any sense without the Temple, the sacrifices, and the Feasts?


 

But you want to adopt from Judaism ... which hates our Lord and Savior?  ... I'll have no part of it.
 
FACT: Christianity is NOT Judaism.

No one claims it is. In fact, the religion that the ancient Israelites practiced wasn't even "Judaism". Judaism did not exist until after the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. Judaism is a re-invention of the religion in order to accommodate for the inability of the Jews to offer sacrifices and perform the other Temple duties.

 

OK, let Gods Word speak for itself.  I could post multiple Scriptures, Acts, Galatians, etc.  But Col 2 might sum it all up nicely.
 
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. ... 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; ... 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God 
 
Verses 20-23 are key!!
 
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?  Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Again, there is nothing here saying one cannot practice such things. The problem Paul addressed was Jews requiring Gentiles become Jews in order to be saved.

None of us here are advocating this.

 

Yes, they do appear to have an IMAGE of Godliness, but they are all vain and perishing, and have NO part in causing to you to restrain yourself from sensual indulgence.

No they don't, and again this is not a claim anyone here has been trying to advocate. Truly, you need to listen to what is being said.

 

If a Christian wants to bicker over easter, or Christmas, or good friday, or what the Catholic Church did, not even knowing the stand of Judaism concerning these things, then I say that Christian has lost sight of the important core of Salvation.

Again, no one referring to what Judaism today has to say concerning such things.

But please explain how Easter eggs and the Easter Bunny point to Jesus and the Cross better than the Passover and Feast of First fruits does?

[Spock]

Donib,

Wow, I don't know where to start.

I guess I won't.

I pretty much said what I think. I read what you think.

I hate defending my beliefs, but I do believe I try to follow scripture-ALL OF SCRIPTURE, not just part of it. And like I previously said, I definitely am not a disciple of "Constantine and the Nicea-ites."

If you think Jesus intended to start a new religion, ok. I'm not sure about that.

In love,

Spock