A little freaked out

[OldSchool2]

Oldschool2,

I am not a follower of Curtis Hutson, whoever he is. One thing I can say is that Galatians has NOTHING to do with lordship salvation, but about Judaising. The Galatians were trying to be sanctified by following the Law instead of continuing in the grace of Jesus Christ, and the resulting empowering of the Spirit. Lordship salvation is simply a matter of defining the terms "belief", and "trust" according to the teaching of Jesus Himself. Nowhere have you answered even close to sufficiently the real questions raised by Jesus' defining of the terms and requirements to become his disciple and enter the Kingdom ...

If grace comes with "terms and requirements" then grace is no longer grace and Lordship Salvation is not its gospel.

So what "other" gospel(s) does that leave?

[Guest shiloh357]

 

If grace comes with "terms and requirements" then grace is no longer grace and Lordship Salvation is not its gospel.

So what "other" gospel(s) does that leave?

 

Jesus doesn't offer salvation free of terms.  You have mischaracterized grace.   Grace is simply salvation offered free of human merit.  There is nothing I can do to earn it; it is a free gift.  Jesus sets the terms of the relationship.  You come to Him on His terms, not on your own or on the basis of personal merit.  He offers Himself as Savior and Lord and you will accept Him on those terms or not at all.

[OldSchool2]

 

 

 

 

 

If you think that's harsh, look what Paul might have said about anyone preaching "Lordship Salvation".

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed [let him be 'damned']." (Galatians 1:6-9)

According to Curtis Hutson, "Lordship salvation is an unscriptural teaching regarding the doctrine of salvation and is confusing to Christians. Those who teach it claim that one must make Jesus Lord of his life in order to be saved. They use such expressions as, 'You cannot receive Jesus as Saviour without receiving Him as Lord,' or, 'If Jesus Christ is not the Lord of your life, then you are not saved'...

"In verse 6, Paul said, 'I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel.' Paul contrasts the Gospel of the grace of God with 'another gospel' which he does not define ...

"He goes on to say, 'There be some that trouble you' (vs. 7). The preaching of another gospel troubles people. He also calls it a perversion of the Gospel of the grace of God.

"Then he says something very strong in verse 8: 'But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed [or 'let him be damned'].

"Then he emphasizes it again in verse 9: 'As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach another gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed [or 'let him be damned']."

 

Pretty harsh, huh.

I guess Paul didn't like Galatianists.

http://cavaliersonly.com/christian_articles_and_messages/a_perversion_of_the_gospel_lordship_salvation_by_curtis_hutson

 

You are making a huge exegetical mistake.   Galatians was written to  a group of believers who were attaching the law to salvation ...

 

 

Attaching anything to salvation is more than a mistake...

 

But what you fail to understand is that the Lordship of Jesus is not being attached to salvation ...

 

 

Then why is Lordship Salvation called Lordship Salvation.

The proximity of these two words certainly indicates an attachment.

[OldSchool2]

That is NOT Shiloh's quote: I posted it from "A Perversion Of The Gospel! Lordship Salvation by Curtis Hutson". I also provided the link for it in my post (#32).

Shiloh is the poster inferring that Lordship Salvation was a response to Bonhoeffer's cheap grace concept.

For someone not trying to confuse the issue, you are doing just the opposite.

 

You can sure come across pretty harsh sometimes ...

If you think that's harsh, look what Paul might have said about anyone preaching "Lordship Salvation".

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed [let him be 'damned']." (Galatians 1:6-9)

According to Curtis Hutson, "Lordship salvation is an unscriptural teaching regarding the doctrine of salvation and is confusing to Christians. Those who teach it claim that one must make Jesus Lord of his life in order to be saved. They use such expressions as, 'You cannot receive Jesus as Saviour without receiving Him as Lord,' or, 'If Jesus Christ is not the Lord of your life, then you are not saved'...

"In verse 6, Paul said, 'I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel.' Paul contrasts the Gospel of the grace of God with 'another gospel' which he does not define ...

"He goes on to say, 'There be some that trouble you' (vs. 7). The preaching of another gospel troubles people. He also calls it a perversion of the Gospel of the grace of God.

"Then he says something very strong in verse 8: 'But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed [or 'let him be damned'].

"Then he emphasizes it again in verse 9: 'As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach another gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed [or 'let him be damned']."

 

Pretty harsh, huh.

I guess Paul didn't like Galatianists.

http://cavaliersonly.com/christian_articles_and_messages/a_perversion_of_the_gospel_lordship_salvation_by_curtis_hutson

 

 

I'm not sure what your point is?  ...

That informing someone that they have inadvertently made things more confusing is no where near as "harsh" as Paul telling someone, even an angel, that they are all "accursed" for preaching another gospel, all in keeping within the Lordship Salvation context of this thread.

[ajchurney]

 

Oldschool2,

I am not a follower of Curtis Hutson, whoever he is. One thing I can say is that Galatians has NOTHING to do with lordship salvation, but about Judaising. The Galatians were trying to be sanctified by following the Law instead of continuing in the grace of Jesus Christ, and the resulting empowering of the Spirit. Lordship salvation is simply a matter of defining the terms "belief", and "trust" according to the teaching of Jesus Himself. Nowhere have you answered even close to sufficiently the real questions raised by Jesus' defining of the terms and requirements to become his disciple and enter the Kingdom ...

If grace comes with "terms and requirements" then grace is no longer grace and Lordship Salvation is not its gospel.

So what "other" gospel(s) does that leave?

 

You utterly contradict and oppose yourself on this one. "You must believe on Christ Jesus" is a term and condition of itself. According to your last statement, one would not even have to believe at all to be saved, because that would be a requirement or condition to receive the grace and that is the heresy of universalism. Do you also prescribe to that?

You are hyper-extending Paul's doctrine, a classic mistake of unbalanced and incomplete exegesis of scripture. Again nowhere have you even attempted to reconcile Jesus' words with Paul's explanations, setting Paul against Jesus Himself, which is obviously incorrect exegesis. You never answered the challenge of cherry picking (proof texting) Pauline excerpts while ignoring the hard sayings of Jesus regarding becoming His disciple and entering his Kingdom. By the way, the Kingdom of Heaven has a LORD, and his name is Jesus. How can you become a subject in His spiritual Kingdom if you are not submitted to His Lordship?? Ridiculous

BTW....I do not believe anyone here cares much what Curtis Hutson says, just please properly exegete the scriptures yourself and let us all know what YOU find out by being a true Berean. Hutson's errors are so exposed already he carries no weight. The Galatian error was gross and inexcusable for any teacher.

[other one]

 

 

That inner transformation is only possible is Jesus is submitted to as Lord.

 

I wasn't denying this.

 

But is salvation about what you do or what Jesus does? Yes, we have to walk in agreement with him. But if my obedience depends on me and my effort, I'm screwed.

 

Conversely, those who play around with "cheap grace" are not putting their old nature to death, which means they haven't really put their faith in Jesus to begin with.

 

 

best post I've read all day neb..

[OldSchool2]

 

 

Oldschool2,

I am not a follower of Curtis Hutson, whoever he is. One thing I can say is that Galatians has NOTHING to do with lordship salvation, but about Judaising. The Galatians were trying to be sanctified by following the Law instead of continuing in the grace of Jesus Christ, and the resulting empowering of the Spirit. Lordship salvation is simply a matter of defining the terms "belief", and "trust" according to the teaching of Jesus Himself. Nowhere have you answered even close to sufficiently the real questions raised by Jesus' defining of the terms and requirements to become his disciple and enter the Kingdom ...

If grace comes with "terms and requirements" then grace is no longer grace and Lordship Salvation is not its gospel.

So what "other" gospel(s) does that leave?

 

You utterly contradict and oppose yourself on this one. "You must believe on Christ Jesus" is a term and condition of itself ...

 

The "ability" to both believe on Christ and receive Him is a God-given Grace in and of itself, not a term and/or condition.

And Hutson was quoting and expounding Paul from Galatians: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed ..." (1:8)

So if Paul never preached "Lordship Salvation" -- and I don't know how Paul could have possibly preached it since it was first popularized by John F. MacArthur in the 1980's -- then it's another gospel, period.

[ajchurney]

 

 

 

Oldschool2,

I am not a follower of Curtis Hutson, whoever he is. One thing I can say is that Galatians has NOTHING to do with lordship salvation, but about Judaising. The Galatians were trying to be sanctified by following the Law instead of continuing in the grace of Jesus Christ, and the resulting empowering of the Spirit. Lordship salvation is simply a matter of defining the terms "belief", and "trust" according to the teaching of Jesus Himself. Nowhere have you answered even close to sufficiently the real questions raised by Jesus' defining of the terms and requirements to become his disciple and enter the Kingdom ...

If grace comes with "terms and requirements" then grace is no longer grace and Lordship Salvation is not its gospel.

So what "other" gospel(s) does that leave?

 

You utterly contradict and oppose yourself on this one. "You must believe on Christ Jesus" is a term and condition of itself ...

 

The "ability" to both believe on Christ and receive Him is a God-given Grace in and of itself, not a term and/or condition.

And Hutson was quoting and expounding Paul from Galatians: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed ..." (1:8)

So if Paul never preached "Lordship Salvation" -- and I don't know how Paul could have possibly preached it since it was first popularized by John F. MacArthur in the 1980's -- then it's another gospel, period.

 

lordship salvation is just a clarifying term for an existing obvious doctrine. It matters nothing when the particular term was coined, just like "trinity" or a hundred other descriptive doctrinal terms that do not in and of themselves appear in the bible. 

The truth is that your extra-hyper Calvinist approach to grace is much closer to "another gospel" than the painfully obvious and pervasive idea of lordship salvation. Recognizing Jesus as Lord has never damaged anyone's faith in God, but hyper-grace theology has watered the modern church down into a pitiful Laodicean state. I think you are in grave danger of being the pot calling the kettle black, but it is your choice to cling to unbalanced theology and untempered exegesis then call everyone else heretics for holding clearly biblical and tenable views. 

What about the hard sayings of Jesus? why won't you touch this subject........

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

This is fitting:

 

People confuse morality with religion, saying things like, "if I do good, the rest will take care of itself," but Yeshua did not come to simply teach (or reinforce) moral truth, but to die for our sins and to transform our nature. The message of the cross is not that we should reform ourselves with renewed hope, but rather that our old nature must die and be replaced with something far greater... When King David cried out to the Lord, "Create in me a clean heart, O God," he did not use the Hebrew word yatzar (יָצַר), which means to "fashion" or "form" something from pre-existing material (Gen. 2:7), but he instead used the word bara (בָּרָא), a verb exclusively used in the Torah to refer to God's direct creation of the cosmos (Gen 1:1). In other words, David understood that no amount of reformation of his character would be enough, and therefore he appealed to the very power of God that alone could create yesh me'ayin, or "out of nothing." Such was the nature of the remedy required that was fulfilled in the cross of Messiah.

 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hebrew-for-Christians/56347292809

That inner transformation is only possible is Jesus is submitted to as Lord.

 

I wasn't denying this.

 

But is salvation about what you do or what Jesus does? Yes, we have to walk in agreement with him. But if my obedience depends on me and my effort, I'm screwed.

 

Conversely, those who play around with "cheap grace" are not putting their old nature to death, which means they haven't really put their faith in Jesus to begin with.

 

I agree.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

Oldschool2,

I am not a follower of Curtis Hutson, whoever he is. One thing I can say is that Galatians has NOTHING to do with lordship salvation, but about Judaising. The Galatians were trying to be sanctified by following the Law instead of continuing in the grace of Jesus Christ, and the resulting empowering of the Spirit. Lordship salvation is simply a matter of defining the terms "belief", and "trust" according to the teaching of Jesus Himself. Nowhere have you answered even close to sufficiently the real questions raised by Jesus' defining of the terms and requirements to become his disciple and enter the Kingdom ...

If grace comes with "terms and requirements" then grace is no longer grace and Lordship Salvation is not its gospel.

So what "other" gospel(s) does that leave?

 

You utterly contradict and oppose yourself on this one. "You must believe on Christ Jesus" is a term and condition of itself ...

 

The "ability" to both believe on Christ and receive Him is a God-given Grace in and of itself, not a term and/or condition.

And Hutson was quoting and expounding Paul from Galatians: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed ..." (1:8)

So if Paul never preached "Lordship Salvation" -- and I don't know how Paul could have possibly preached it since it was first popularized by John F. MacArthur in the 1980's -- then it's another gospel, period.

 

Actually the Lordship of Jesus was a major feature of Paul's epistles.   If Jesus isn't your Lord, He isn't your Savior.  He doesn't offer one without the other.  If ahyone is presenting a false gospel, it is you.   Given that you equate Genesis with fairytales and Aesop's fables, i am not surprised to see such false doctrine from you, with regards to salvation.