Can violence be justified?

[Taker]

So many extreme examples are put up to say, this justifies violence.

Very little justifies violence. There is an argument for state violence, in the sense of a police force and an army, but that is a long way from saying therefore everybody should have a gun!

 

I will tell one story of a missionary I know, Art, who was working in an area controlled by drug lords. Art was out riding his bike when he came across someone heavily armed who wanted his bike. The man asked Art, are you alone. Now Art was with no person, but knew the Lord was with him. Art answered, 'no I'm not alone'. Then he saw a look of horror come across the man's face who then turn and left.

 

The reality is when God is very involved in your life and you are following his will for your life he will be with you. I would rather have God with me than a gun.

Thank you Hashe. This is what I was trying to talk about when I was referring to chapter 19 in Genesis where God personally sends 2 angels to protect Lot and his family.

 

A lot of times, guys like to make friends with someone who is big and strong. They think "if I get into a fight he will stand up for me". However, why would I need another human to stand up for me when I have the creator of all humans on my side?

 

Seeing as how those who support self-defense love to come up with the most horrific examples of when you must use violence, how about this: You are in a wheelchair and paralyzed from the neck down, a man breaks into your home and attacks your wife and kids, what should you do?

 

Here is another: You are walking down the street with you wife and kids. You are an able-body man who is carrying a gun and 20 men who are all carrying various guns, knives and bats start threatening your family with violence. One of the men grabs a kid and holds him hostage, "if any one of you resists us, the kid shall be killed!" he declares. What should you do?

[The_Patriot21]

@ hashe your against violence yet you still haven't answered the question on the table-you come across a man raping a young girl, how is it loving not to step in and protect her? 

[shodan]

Hard to have a meaningful discussion when you throw so many different occasions together.  On warfare [and other things, too] Christians are quick to cite some 'proof text' without any regard for context. Take for example "two swords"

 

http://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2012/06/17/two-swords-enough/

 

Or Romans "13"  http://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2012/05/31/romans-13-in-context-sword-pacifism/

[other one]

pacifist just drive me crazy.....

[The_Patriot21]

and yet Jesus still told them to buy a sword. no matter how you look at it, Jesus still said to buy a sword shodan. Jesus also never rebuked Peter for having the sword, didn't tell Peter to get rid of his sword, His only rebuke was in bad timing.  those articles are a bunch of words that basically don't mean anything-just some author trying to explain away that verse to try to push pacifism, it is that author, that is twisting scripture. Jesus was no pacifist. He wasn't a violent man, either. He was God.

[Guest LadyC]

ok, these scriptures (and others i posted last night) are being conveniently ignored by those who believe God doesn't want us to do whatever it takes to protect ourselves or others.... so i'm going to share them again. and if necessary, i'll do it yet again. 

 

 

just thought i'd share a few more... 

 

 

 

Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. 

 

God EXPECTS us to act on behalf of those who are in danger of harm from someone else.

 

 

 

Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.

 

If someone is about to be killed, it is our responsibility to protect and save them.

 

 

 

Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'

 

If we refuse to take responsibility and do what we can to protect them, then God holds US responsible for their death.

 

 

 

Luke 22:35-39 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing."  36Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.  37 "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."  38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."  39 Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His disciples also followed Him.

 

Jesus instructs his disciples to purchase and carry swords, even though those who believe in Him lack nothing. Even though God is our refuge, He still expects us to be able and willing to act in defense of those who need defending.

 

 

Luke 22:49-53 (NAS) 49 And when those who were around Him saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?"  50 And a certain one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear.  51 But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. 52 And Jesus said to the chief priests and officers of the temple and elders who had come against Him, "Have you come out with swords and clubs as against a robber?  53 "While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours."

 

Matthew 26:51-56   51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.  52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.  53 "Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?  54 "How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"  55 In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, "Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me.  56 "But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled."

 

in these two passages, yes, Jesus chastises his disciple (whom we always presume is peter although who it actually is is not specified here) for drawing the sword and cutting off an ear. this was one of the points brought up AGAINST the use of violence by someone earlier in this thread. but like i pointed out (to someone's offense), CONTEXT is everything. Jesus wasn't saying one should never use the sword at all. He was saying that HE is not defenseless. He makes the distinction here too, about swords being used in defense against thieves and robbers who are threatening your home (and presumably your family) being a separate issue from drawing a sword as an act of vengeance... because the cutting off of an ear was an act of impulsive anger.

 

i do hope this helps to clear up some of the confusion about what God allows, and even expects of us when we find ourselves or someone else in danger of imminent harm, and under what circumstances He allows the use of force.

[Marnie]

Hey, I'm all for violence if need be.  Violence preserves lives, freedom, and liberty.  Had I been a little more violent a few years ago, I might have saved myself from being maimed, raped, and physically messed up for the rest of my life.   Yeah, I'm all in for violence. 

[OneLight]

Ecclesiastes 3

 

To everything there is a season,

A time for every purpose under heaven:

A time to be born,

And a time to die;

A time to plant,

And a time to pluck what is planted;

A time to kill,

And a time to heal;

A time to break down,

And a time to build up;

A time to weep,

And a time to laugh;

A time to mourn,

And a time to dance;

A time to cast away stones,

And a time to gather stones;

A time to embrace,

And a time to refrain from embracing;

A time to gain,

And a time to lose;

A time to keep,

And a time to throw away;

A time to tear,

And a time to sew;

A time to keep silence,

And a time to speak;

A time to love,

And a time to hate;

A time of war,

And a time of peace.

What profit has the worker from that in which he labors? I have seen the God-given task with which the sons of men are to be occupied. He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.

I know that nothing is better for them than to rejoice, and to do good in their lives, and also that every man should eat and drink and enjoy the good of all his labor—it is the gift of God.

I know that whatever God does,

It shall be forever.

Nothing can be added to it,

And nothing taken from it.

God does it, that men should fear before Him.

That which is has already been,

And what is to be has already been;

And God requires an account of what is past.

Moreover I saw under the sun:

 

In the place of judgment,

Wickedness was there;

And in the place of righteousness,

Iniquity was there.

I said in my heart,

 

“God shall judge the righteous and the wicked,

For there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.”

I said in my heart, “Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals.” For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth? So I perceived that nothing is better than that a man should rejoice in his own works, for that is his heritage. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?

[Taker]

I'm done with this topic of debate. My view is that (as the Bible has proven countless times) the Lord will protect his children. I can't see myself changing my mind about this topic again.

 

Thank you all very much for providing your own views and experiences on this topic.

 

[almightyist]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/13/the-gruesome-story-of-a-murdered-tennessee-couple-you-may-have-never-heard-about-but-that-you-will-never-forget/

The link is a murder case that a lot people never heard... Some humans are bad to the core...this can be a evil world...some people don't want Jesus/love....the want hate/satan

I personally don't think lethal injection is justice and all involved should have been eliminated from earth. Immediately.

I'm not Jesus...I'm not John the Baptist...I'm not Stephen they all died horrific deaths as God stood by...I'm me...I'm protecting my family and myself...with what ever means possible...including violence...

Humans should protect humans.

Love always protects...