Can violence be justified?

[The_Patriot21]

no kwik they don't go intending to hurt those kwik-but they do go out prepared for it, and with the knowledge they may have to use it, which is what I was getting at. From the definition fez gave, that's pre-mediated-the cop knows hes likely going to have to use force. This wont be a guy jumps out of an alley with a knife, this is going into a violent situation with the knowledge he will likely have to use it himself. Its pre-meditated as in the cop is preparing for it-hes not waiting for it to happen to him. Sure, hes not just going to walk up and shoot the guy, but hes not going to avoid it and go across town either. Hes willing to walk into a violent situation with the knowledge he may have to use violence himself (or herself) Another example is a soldier going to war-lets throw world war 2 out there-evil man trying to take over the world. Christian soldier signs up and goes over to try and stop him-there is no difussing the situation then, he is going over there, with the intent to use violence to try to stop evil.

 

seems to me we again go back to scripture. I have said it before-wisdom is the better part of valor, and knowing when is wisdom. Goes back to Ecclesiastes 3:1-8-there is a time for everything. Jesus, rarely used violence-he usually used avoidance, but his life was rarely in danger, and the two times he did use violence he did not hurt anyone. Keep in mind violence doesn't mean the taking of a life-a wise man only uses what is necessary. Jesus just threw tables around the first time he cleansed the temple-when that didn't work he went in with a whip the second time. He could have used that whip on the people-but scripture gives us no indication he did. He coulda let Peter let loose with his sword or sent in an army of angels-Jesus did not, He did the bare amount necessary to get His point across. Jesus goal, was to save us-not Himself, His getting after Peter in the garden for using his sword was not saying Peter was wrong in having the sword-or in his use of it-but rather in the timing of it. This is the same God that used war in the OT countless times to protect His people. Timings is everything.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Pat,,,,

     LOL,,,it seems that we are really in agreement except that I think the only difference is the use of the word "pre-meditated" I agree with everything you are saying as you do me .....but I think in everything you have described the better & more appropriate word would seem to me to be"prepared" as pre-meditated  is more a definition of a cold & calculated ,deliberate action with a planned intent.....................or at least they are synonomous

     God Bless you ,& I really like your statement that "Wisdom is the better part of Valor",it is poetic & thought provoking

                                                                                                                                                     With love-in Christ,Kwik

[almightyist]

almighty, that is an extreme twist of scripture. The angels will come and separate the wicked-but theyre not the ones who decide who is wicked, only God does that. God is the judge not the angels. Its not the angels job to judge nor is it yours. Sayings its ok to kill those who do not believe-that's not Biblical, that's not Christian-in fact, I can think of one religion that preaches that-islam. We are called to love the wicked, its not our job to cast them out its not our job to kill them. period.  We are called to go forth and make disciples of all the nations, to baptize them, to teach them about Christ, THAT is what we are to do. (matthew 28:16-20) we are called to love our enemies (matthew 5:44) and to pray for them. Killing them just because theyre not a Christian? that's not Christian, nor is it remotely biblical. Think about it. you wernt always a Christian, so by your standard someone should have killed you before you came to Christ.

 

In fact, we all should have been killed before coming to Christ-for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) that's all, as in everyone, as in you, as in me. And the wages of sin is death. (Romans 6:23a) So, realistically your right-WE ALL deserve death, you, me, billy graham, mother Theresa, all of us. But, arnt we glad that Romans 6:23 doesn't end at the wages of sin is death-it goes on to say that the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. It is a free gift. We don't deserve it, we deserve to be killed, to die, but we were given a free gift-and it is our responsibility, to tell everyone about this gift-even those that we deem "wicked" because, in Gods eyes we are all wicked. Its not our place to send people to judgement, that's not our role. Come judgement time, it still wont-God will do the judging the angels will do the separating, NEITHER is our job.

What r u talking about? Killing unbelievers? I'm not killing anyone or have any desire to kill anyone. The question was can violence be justified? I say yes. I serve a wrathful God. Jesus Christ Lord God Almighty.....Revelation 19:11-13 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

I pointed out scripture that shows angels throw wickedness into a furnace. The wrath of God in Revelation is violent. The Old Testament has violent scenes. If violence offends you then your serving the wrong God.

If some comes on my property to destroy my loved ones I will use violence to protect them. I'm not going to kiss them and take up a bible study.

God is loving but he is violent when the situation deems necessary.

[Qnts2]

Below is a story. I'm not sure if it is true or not, although it was claimed to be true. It might be an inspiration story. Sorry for the caps, but it came in all caps.

 

AFTER A FEW OF THE USUAL SUNDAY EVENING HYMNS, THE CHURCH'S PASTOR SLOWLY STOOD UP, WALKED OVER TO THE PULPIT AND, BEFORE HE GAVE HIS SERMON FOR THE EVENING, BRIEFLY INTRODUCED A GUEST MINISTER WHO WAS IN THE SERVICE THAT EVENING. IN THE INTRODUCTION, THE PASTOR TOLD THE CONGREGATION THAT THE GUEST MINISTER WAS ONE OF HIS DEAREST CHILDHOOD FRIENDS AND THAT HE WANTED HIM TO HAVE A FEW MOMENTS TO GREET THE CHURCH AND SHARE WHATEVER HE FELT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE FOR THE SERVICE.

WITH THAT, AN ELDERLY MAN STEPPED UP TO THE PULPIT AND BEGAN TO SPEAK.

"A FATHER, HIS SON, AND A FRIEND OF HIS SON WERE SAILING OFF THE PACIFIC COAST," HE BEGAN, "WHEN A FAST APPROACHING STORM BLOCKED ANY ATTEMPT TO GET BACK TO THE SHORE. THE WAVES WERE SO HIGH, THAT EVEN THOUGH THE FATHER WAS AN EXPERIENCED SAILOR, HE COULD NOT KEEP THE BOAT UPRIGHT AND THE THREE WERE SWEPT INTO THE OCEAN AS THE BOAT CAPSIZED."

THE OLD MAN HESITATED FOR A MOMENT, MAKING EYE CONTACT WITH TWO TEENAGERS WHO WERE, FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE SERVICE BEGAN, LOOKING SOMEWHAT INTERESTED IN HIS STORY. THE AGED MINISTER CONTINUED WITH HIS STORY, "GRABBING A RESCUE LINE, THE FATHER HAD TO MAKE THE MOST EXCRUCIATING DECISION OF HIS LIFE: TO WHICH BOY HE WOULD THROW THE OTHER END OF THE LIFE LINE. HE ONLY HAD SECONDS TO MAKE THE DECISION. THE FATHER KNEW THAT HIS SON WAS A CHRISTIAN AND HE ALSO KNEW THAT HIS SON'S FRIEND WAS NOT. THE AGONY OF HIS DECISION COULD NOT BE MATCHED BY THE TORRENT OF WAVES. AS THE FATHER YELLED OUT, "I LOVE YOU, SON!" HE THREW OUT THE LIFE LINE TO HIS SON'S FRIEND. BY THE TIME THE FATHER HAD PULLED THE FRIEND BACK TO THE CAPSIZED BOAT, HIS SON HAD DISAPPEARED BENEATH THE RAGING SWELLS INTO THE BLACK OF NIGHT . . . HIS BODY WAS NEVER RECOVERED.

BY THIS TIME, THE TWO TEENAGERS WERE SITTING UP STRAIGHT IN THE PEW, ANXIOUSLY WAITING FOR THE NEXT WORDS TO COME OUT OF THE OLD MINISTER'S MOUTH.

"THE FATHER," HE CONTINUED, "KNEW HIS SON WOULD STEP INTO ETERNITY WITH JESUS AND HE COULD NOT BEAR THE THOUGHT OF HIS SON'S FRIEND STEPPING INTO AN ETERNITY WITHOUT JESUS. THEREFORE, HE SACRIFICED HIS SON TO SAVE THE SON'S FRIEND. HOW GREAT IS THE LOVE OF GOD THAT HE SHOULD DO THE SAME FOR US. OUR HEAVENLY FATHER SACRIFICED HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON THAT WE COULD BE SAVED. I URGE YOU TO ACCEPT HIS OFFER TO RESCUE YOU AND TAKE A HOLD OF THE LIFE LINE HE IS THROWING OUT TO YOU IN THIS SERVICE."

. . . WITH THAT, THE OLD MAN TURNED AND SAT BACK DOWN IN HIS CHAIR AS SILENCE FILLED THE ROOM.

THE PASTOR AGAIN WALKED SLOWLY TO THE PULPIT AND DELIVERED A BRIEF SERMON WITH AN INVITATION AT THE END. HOWEVER, NO ONE RESPONDED TO THE APPEAL. WITHIN MINUTES AFTER THE SERVICE ENDED, THE TWO TEENAGERS WERE AT THE OLD MAN'S SIDE. "THAT WAS A NICE STORY," POLITELY STATED ONE OF THE BOYS, "BUT I DON'T THINK IT WAS VERY REALISTIC FOR A FATHER TO GIVE UP HIS ONLY SON'S LIFE IN HOPES THAT THE OTHER BOY WOULD BECOME A CHRISTIAN."

"WELL, YOU'VE GOT A POINT THERE," THE OLD MAN REPLIED, GLANCING DOWN AT HIS WORN BIBLE. A BIG SMILE BROADENED HIS NARROW FACE, HE ONCE AGAIN LOOKED UP AT THE BOYS AND SAID, "IT SURE ISN'T VERY REALISTIC, IS IT? BUT, I'M STANDING HERE TODAY TO TELL YOU THAT STORY GIVES ME A GLIMPSE OF WHAT IT MUST HAVE BEEN LIKE FOR GOD TO GIVE UP HIS SON FOR ME. YOU SEE --- I WAS THAT FATHER AND YOUR PASTOR IS MY
SON'S FRIEND."

 

I  had a friend (since passed away) who was a missionary. We would periodically go out to share the gospel, as he also spent time teaching me about evangelism. We would go out in some areas and among people who might get violent. He told me that should things get potentially deadly, and he had to chose who to save, he would save the person who needed to hear the gospel. He view was that if I died, I would have a place with Jesus, while the unsaved person would not have such an end. He told me that he had explained his view to his wife and children also.

 

After thinking about what he said, I realized that when I leave this earth, early or later, I was going on to a wonderful eternity, but not so for the lost. What I lose in an early death, is actually an eternity of greater blessing. 

 

Well, that certainly got me thinking. When do we do violence to protect others. Knowing that those who we are fighting are likely not saved. My conclusion was first of all, typically this is in the realm of government which is to protect the land and citizens. Secondly, if an evil person or people were tormenting and killing another group of people who are likely not saved. There is a choice to make. You have to save or try to save those who are the victoms. Of course, I was thinking of Nazi Germany where Hitler was bound and determined to murder millions of people. I would have to take action. It was the caring, moral thing to do.

 

But in a situation where someone is threatening violence against your family, and you family are believers, do you save family, or the person threatening violence, in hopes that the unsaved person might, in the future, receive Jesus?     

[Taker]

So, I have meditated on some of the scripture that has been mentioned in this discussion. I now fully believe that no sin committed by another human being can justify the use of violence against them. "Do not judge others, so that you will not be judged" (Matthew 7:1) is very clearly written in the New Testament. So, how in the world could punching a guy in the face (or shooting him with a gun) possibly not be considered judging him?

 

By committing an act of violence, you are telling another human being "you are wrong, I am right." Can Christians claim that when you sin you become so much less of a person that all evil can be justified if used to stop you? "Never pay back evil with more evil. Do things in such a way that everyone can see you are honorable." (Romans 12:17).

 

To live in a way where you ask yourself, "what would I do if someone attacked my family?" makes it sound like you lack faith in the God of the universe who's love is infinite. There isn't a single thing that has ever happened in the world that God couldn't have stopped. Suffering is destined to come to those who sin, but Christians aren't called to take matters into their own hands. Remember what happened in Genesis chapter 19, the lord had plans to wipe out Sodom and Gomorrah. However, there was a righteous man living in Sodom and his name was Lot. Lot had been living in Sodom despite just how corrupt the citizens who surrounded him were. God sent 2 angles to Sodom. These angles were there to personally protect, warn and help Lot (as well as his family) escape Sodom. During the story, men from Sodom surround Lot's house while the angels are inside the house with Lot. These men get very angry and there are even threats of rape! Let us remember, that even though the house is surrounded by corrupt men who deserve destruction, neither God nor the angels told Lot to attack any of the men. Instead, the angels blinded all of the men. God can protect you no matter what, to say "I need a gun, or else God will allow my family members to get attacked right in front of me in such a way that I would wish that I had a gun." Sounds like a message that comes directly from the devil himself. Please take another look at the scripture in my original post. He who uses the sword will die by the sword. Not, he who lives by the sword will die by the sword.

 

Now, I must address all of the violence that was committed in the Old Testament by Christians for the sake of God. If a Christian killed a non-Christian in the bible (and the act wasn't condemned by God) then that means that God deliberately told that Christian to kill a specific person or group of people. Joshua was told by God to lead a violent military campaign against the Canaanites. This was God's will for Joshua, and God made it clear to Joshua that this was his will. God told Joshua that it was his duty to lead the Israelites in battle against the Canaanites. I want to make this point clear, unless God tells you to, you do not have his permission to kill or hurt anyone.

 

"But I must carry a Gun on me at all times. I cannot afford to drop my guard. If my Gun is at home and I am enjoying myself on vacation at the beach, then I have sinned by not being prepared to protect my family at this moment. Lord, please forgive me for not having an appropriate weapon on me at all times that I intend to use against my enemies." I do not endorse this way of thinking.

 

If you tell me, "I need to be armed at all times!" then I will ask you "Why? Do you find the armor of God to be in-adequate?"

 

To summarize all of my above points:

 

1. To commit violence against an enemy is to judge them, Matthew 7:1 tells us not to judge others.

 

2. Sin doesn't justify sin. Evil doesn't justify evil. "Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

3. God will protect the righteous. (Genesis chapter 19, or look to Acts 7:54-60)

 

4. God never gave man the ability to decide when it was right to kill or not kill another human. Unless you get direct orders from God, you should not kill or harm another human being.

 

5. The armor of God is sufficient!

 

The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these. - (Mark 12:31).

Edited April 2, 2014 by Taker

[OneLight]

The description of violence here is vague. To some, it is premeditated, to some it is a reaction, including self defense. To some it is name calling, to some it is shooting someone. The comparison can go on. As you can see, the vagueness can, and has, resulted in many disagreements due to each seeing violence in a different light. The OP spoke about violence "in any form" and then adds an example of "1 on 1 fight with a bully to a world war."

The first choice should always be to do all one can do to resolve the matter without any physical altercation in the above example, where I would also include without any violent exchange of words, since violence is not only physical.

My answer about violence would be what was in your heart? Did I have to use violent movements to save the life of a someone, like a child, an elderly person or a woman being beaten? Did I sit in wait for someone who said something wrong, planing on harming this person in my rage of vengeance? Could I have just turned and walked away from a bully calling me names or shoving me, or do I let my pride take hold, forcing me to stand up for my rights? Do I turn around or find another way when I see someone sexually assaulting another in an alley or stoop, or do I do what I can to bring an end to this?

Too many question, too many examples, too many unknowns. There is no true answer to if one would use any swift and intense force to protect the innocent until one is faced with it. We can say that we would or would not as we sit in a peaceful environment discussing the possibilities, but when faced with reality, we have no idea how God may move us. Yes, God is love and we are instructed not to act in anger, but would He not move us to help an infant who is being punched or badly beaten by an adult? Not talking about a light tap on the behind for acting out.

As Christians, we should weigh your heart in every incident. God will lead you in an instance when faced with a choice of this magnitude.

[Guest LadyC]

Taker, your understanding of scripture, and of CONTEXT, is still in new and being shaped. the scripture you provided from matthew is not talking about the use of violence. it's not talking about self defense, it's not talking about punishment (including death penalty.) many people think that we are never to judge anyone or anything they ever do, but that is so clearly NOT what scripture is talking about, because scripture tells us we ARE to judge the actions of another. so unless you think God lied in many other places, then there is a contextual break down that needs to be bridged. i'm not using my own computer right now, but if you'd like me to explore that with you in more detail and help you to find other scriptures and put them all in context, i'll be happy to do so a little later. please let me know.

 

same is true for your reference to romans 12:17. to get the conttext of that one you only have to do so much as read the next couple of verses where it clarifies that what is being discussed is personal vengeance... and i think every one of us here has made that distinction in their posts.

[Atwood]

"don't just stand there, PRAY something!" -------

Now there is something to hang on the wall and to remember.

[Qnts2]

This conversation reminded me of a verse:

 

James 2:16 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, ¹⁶ and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

 

When evil people do evil things to others, and Christians do not take a stand, or attempt to help or stop the evil, what does that say to the victoms?

[The_Patriot21]

almighty my reply was in reply to these words "we can do whatever violent acts we want to the wicked and the guilty. Throwing them into a furnace is an option" sounds to me that you were indeed saying we could do whatever we want to those that do not believe. And when questioned on it your reply was "because the angels do it" perhaps that wasn't your intent-but that's exactly what you said.