Revelation 13

[Salty]

Salty,

How do you believe the Jewish people will respond to this Jewish Messiah when he does his abomination of desolation thing and subsequently will put an end to the sacrifices in their newly rebuilt temple?

 

Now that's a good question. Since the Greek word 'pseudochristos' is used in Matt.24:24 for the Antichrist, that is pointing to a fake or pseudo Christ. On top of that 2 Thess.2:3-4 is revealing the Antichrist will play God and be believable to the deceived.

 

But remember Rom.11 about the blindness which God placed upon Israel in part, (i.e., not being given 'eyes to see, and ears to hear'). Paul made the comparison of it to a spiritual stupor, spiritual lethargy. And remember when Jesus told the blind scribes and Pharisees that they rejected Him coming in The Father's Name, but would receive one coming in his own name. I think that points to the 'blindness' put upon them from God that Paul spoke of.

[ARGOSY]

ARGOSY I’m going to be honest with you, though I do believe your intentions are good and your are a scholar no different to me for the love of our God, however you come across as very anti-semtic with not only your theory to demonize Israel to be the 8^th Kingdom which is pure Evil on earth, the claim one of them will also be the embodiment of Satan himself, further chastising how evil Israel is with your above quote. Completely contradicts God and word.

 

Yes Israel has sinned but throughout its existence Israel does not deserve to be demonized the way you have, nor does Israel deserve to be the epitome of Evil.

 

 

Yes many Jews have contributed towards society. I thought you were referring to national blessing, a country that helps another country , for example the manner in which the USA protects Israel, and assisted in WW2 and assisted Europe's recovery after WW2.  Even so... there is no pure black and white where it comes to politics. Even the evil fourth Roman Empire brought much good and civilization and technology into the world. Sometimes with greed as the motivation, but often merely via self-protection from aggressors they expanded and conquered the surrounding regions.  The same could be said about the USA, about the British Empire and Papal Europe. This is true of the Ottoman Empire as well , which brought science and technology and often times peace to the Middle east. So too with China over the millenia. 

 

Before the timing of the true restoration of Messianic Israel, some European bankers and Jewish communities managed to organise an earlier state of Israel in 1948. There were some good things about this and some bad aspects to this. Good in that Jews didn't have their own homeland, especially after the horrors of WW2 and they needed their own land. It was bad in the manner in which they displaced the existing Arab population and the manner of their impatience to wait for their true Messiah to do such a restoration. They have many prophecies about a sudden restoration of all Israel on the day of the Lord, and yet knowingly are trying to achieve this before God's timing. 

 

I am in no manner anti-semitic, I am a premillenialist which means I completely believe in the full prophesied complete restoration of Israel as described in Ezekiel 40-48 and Isaiah 65 and Zechariah 12-14.  I believe in an earlier and ADDITIONAL blessing and protection of Israel from Satan during the great tribulation. I believe once we have experienced the fullness of the Nations (Romans 11:25) Jewish hearts will be open to the gospel for that last period. I believe the two witnesses will be Jewish. I believe our focus during this current time should be to bring the gospel to Jews, the first nation to receive revival, and the last nation to do so. And so the first will be last.

 

I hope you can see that I am not anti-semitic at all, and my love for the Jewish nation is stirred by my understanding of their place in God's word.  They are currently in a place of need of repentance. Their countries behaviour at the moment does not in any manner conform to those times of blessing in the OT. Neither are they saved Christians. So from a religious perspective they are in sin.  Whenever Israel was in national sin, God always sent prophets first to warn them, and then an army of judgment. We the church, plus the two witnesses are those prophets to warn them to come to repentance before the attack of Armageddon. I believe what I have put forward is the true biblical response to the current state of Israel.

[ARGOSY]

Joel 2: 11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? 12 Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: 13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

 

Israel will enter a time of sinful peace and safety:

Ezekiel 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

I'm agreeing with everything you are saying. So I'm not sure where we are in disagreement. You seem to be emphasizing that the antichrist is Jewish, something I agree with. Now nearly all the Jews in Israel came recently from other countries. Only the tiniest portion of Jews in Israel come from families that have been there for hundreds of years, most Jews in Israel have immigrated there more recently. In Israel there are American Jews, European Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Russian Jews, Kurdish Jews etc etc    The antichrist will come from one of these Jews, am I right?

 

 

To fit the prophecy, the coming pseudo-Christ must come from the house of David in order to mimic Christ.

 

I find it difficult to believe that the unbelieving Jews would anoint any other as their king in Jerusalem, and that is the role that pseudo-Christ is to play, Messiah-King. Would false Jews in control in Jerusalem lie about that, saying the Antichrist is born of the house of David? I think it's possible, just as I believe they would lie about having the true ark of the covenant also, and the temple built at the proper site on the Temple Mount.

 

I know Marilyn et al uses the title "the Assyrian" in Isaiah to mean an actual person from Assyria as the coming Antichrist, but in the OT prophets there's places where God used "the Assyrian" as a symbolic title for Satan himself (like Isa.10; Ezek.31). If I recall, Isaiah 10 also gives how the historical king of Assyria came upon Jerusalem out of the north, city by city. That might serve as a pattern for how the Antichrist comes to Jerusalem out of the north also.

 

Now if the Jews in Jerusalem agree to setting up a king not from the house of David, not of Israel, then wouldn't it be very easy for the majority of the Jews also to know that is not the true Messiah? Wouldn't that just be another historical-like pattern, like Antiochus, etc.? I haven't completely ommited that possibility, because since God has blinded many of His people until Christ returns, they would probably fall to that anyway.

 

But what about us Christians? Don't many of us know the Biblical requirement of The Lord Jesus Christ being born of the house of David? How many of us would be duped by their presenting the Antichrist as Christ born of the Gentiles?

 

 

But like I said, isn't every Jew a recent immigrant into Israel?  Many of those Jews are from the house of David.   So we get house of David Jews from the USA, from Europe, from Russia. The Jews that settled in Kurdistan are no less Jewish than Jews that settled in Europe.  I don't see why you would want to exclude a Kurdish Jew (a Jew with folks that used to live in northern Iraq) from being a potential antichrist, in favor of a European Jew? I agree, a Kurdish antichrist will also have to show roots from the house of David, and I believe they would be just as capable of doing so as a European Jew or a Russian Jew. There had always been a large Jewish community in northern Iraq, which emigrated into Israel.

[Salty]

 

Yes many Jews have contributed towards society. I thought you were referring to national blessing, a country that helps another country , for example the manner in which the USA protects Israel, and assisted in WW2 and assisted Europe's recovery after WW2.  Even so... there is no pure black and white where it comes to politics. Even the evil fourth Roman Empire brought much good and civilization and technology into the world. Sometimes with greed as the motivation, but often merely via self-protection from aggressors they expanded and conquered the surrounding regions.  The same could be said about the USA, about the British Empire and Papal Europe. This is true of the Ottoman Empire as well , which brought science and technology and often times peace to the Middle east. So too with China over the millenia. 

 

Before the timing of the true restoration of Messianic Israel, some European bankers and Jewish communities managed to organise an earlier state of Israel in 1948. There were some good things about this and some bad aspects to this. Good in that Jews didn't have their own homeland, especially after the horrors of WW2 and they needed their own land. It was bad in the manner in which they displaced the existing Arab population and the manner of their impatience to wait for their true Messiah to do such a restoration. They have many prophecies about a sudden restoration of all Israel on the day of the Lord, and yet knowingly are trying to achieve this before God's timing. 

 

I am in no manner anti-semitic, I am a premillenialist which means I completely believe in the full prophesied complete restoration of Israel as described in Ezekiel 40-48 and Isaiah 65 and Zechariah 12-14.  I believe in an earlier and ADDITIONAL blessing and protection of Israel from Satan during the great tribulation. I believe once we have experienced the fullness of the Nations (Romans 11:25) Jewish hearts will be open to the gospel for that last period. I believe the two witnesses will be Jewish. I believe our focus during this current time should be to bring the gospel to Jews, the first nation to receive revival, and the last nation to do so. And so the first will be last.

 

I hope you can see that I am not anti-semitic at all, and my love for the Jewish nation is stirred by my understanding of their place in God's word.  They are currently in a place of need of repentance. Their countries behaviour at the moment does not in any manner conform to those times of blessing in the OT. Neither are they saved Christians. So from a religious perspective they are in sin.  Whenever Israel was in national sin, God always sent prophets first to warn them, and then an army of judgment. We the church, plus the two witnesses are those prophets to warn them to come to repentance before the attack of Armageddon. I believe what I have put forward is the true biblical response to the current state of Israel.

 

 

Well said. It is ungodly to claim one is anti-Semitic when just speaking of how Jewish brethren are in deception or being deceived.

 

In the last verse of Zechariah 14, which is for after Christ's return, God mentioned in that time there will no more be the Canaanite in the house of The Lord of hosts. The creeping in of the pagan Canaanites into Israel's stay is an early Bible topic and is still in effect all the way up to our Lord Jesus' return. Not many realize that the scribes our Lord Jesus rebuked were not even born of Israel, but were Kenites of the lands of Canaan that crept into Israel centuries before His first coming (see 1 Chronicles 2 and Genesis 15). Those still today are the ones deceiving those of Judah whom The LORD has also blinded for this world.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

Well said. It is ungodly to claim one is anti-Semitic when just speaking of how Jewish brethren are in deception or being deceived.

 

In the last verse of Zechariah 14, which is for after Christ's return, God mentioned in that time there will no more be the Canaanite in the house of The Lord of hosts. The creeping in of the pagan Canaanites into Israel's stay is an early Bible topic and is still in effect all the way up to our Lord Jesus' return. Not many realize that the scribes our Lord Jesus rebuked were not even born of Israel, but were Kenites of the lands of Canaan that crept into Israel centuries before His first coming (see 1 Chronicles 2 and Genesis 15). Those still today are the ones deceiving those of Judah whom The LORD has also blinded for this world.

 

 

Thanks. even now there are pure-hearted Jews who await the true restoration of Israel and do not wish to participate in the current Israel. Not all Jews are pro-Zionism. They know that they will be brought back to Israel when their Messiah appears on the day of the Lord, and patiently await this true restoration of the state of Israel. 

[Salty]

 

But like I said, isn't every Jew a recent immigrant into Israel?  Many of those Jews are from the house of David.   So we get house of David Jews from the USA, from Europe, from Russia. The Jews that settled in Kurdistan are no less Jewish than Jews that settled in Europe.  I don't see why you would want to exclude a Kurdish Jew (a Jew with folks that used to live in northern Iraq) from being a potential antichrist, in favor of a European Jew? I agree, a Kurdish antichrist will also have to show roots from the house of David, and I believe they would be just as capable of doing so as a European Jew or a Russian Jew. There had always been a large Jewish community in northern Iraq, which emigrated into Israel.

 

 

That is a mystery to most of the Churches, and to the world, but not to most Jews. Judaism doesn't appear to separate the Sephardic and Ashkenazi in the bloodline sense (though I have read a couple of Israeli sources which says they do), but they are more separate in the religious difference sense. Within their explanations they actually are revealing a lineage difference if one pays attention, with the Sepharidic being mainly descendents from old Spain, Portugal, North Africa, and the Middle East, and the Ashkenazi descending from France, Germany, and eastern Europe.

 

No matter, because per the Bible prophecy about the coming Antichrist, we are shown he won't be actually be The True Christ-Messiah anyway. I strongly believe that role is preserved for Satan himself, since the title pointers in Revelation point directly to him (that's right, no flesh man as king will ascend from the bottomless pit, but Satan will). That means the ones who serve him must... somehow make the Jews believe he (Satan) is descended from the house of David in order to be the imposter of our Lord Jesus Christ. A fake temple, a fake ark of the covenant (real one is in Heaven per Rev.), a fake layout that won't fit Ezekiel 40-48, a fake Christ, not really that hard to fathom for those not deceived. That's why I mentioned Rom.11 about God's blindness upon Israel in part (Jews). They would never fall into that trap without God's blindness put upon their minds for this time, and I speak of orthodox Jews who still reject our Lord Jesus Christ as The Messiah.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

But like I said, isn't every Jew a recent immigrant into Israel?  Many of those Jews are from the house of David.   So we get house of David Jews from the USA, from Europe, from Russia. The Jews that settled in Kurdistan are no less Jewish than Jews that settled in Europe.  I don't see why you would want to exclude a Kurdish Jew (a Jew with folks that used to live in northern Iraq) from being a potential antichrist, in favor of a European Jew? I agree, a Kurdish antichrist will also have to show roots from the house of David, and I believe they would be just as capable of doing so as a European Jew or a Russian Jew. There had always been a large Jewish community in northern Iraq, which emigrated into Israel.

 

 

That is a mystery to most of the Churches, and to the world, but not to most Jews. Judaism doesn't appear to separate the Sephardic and Ashkenazi in the bloodline sense (though I have read a couple of Israeli sources which says they do), but they are more separate in the religious difference sense. Within their explanations they actually are revealing a lineage difference if one pays attention, with the Sepharidic being mainly descendents from old Spain, Portugal, North Africa, and the Middle East, and the Ashkenazi descending from France, Germany, and eastern Europe.

 

 

Yes the origin of Ashkenazi Jews is a fascinating subject altogether.   The genetic and linguistic (Yiddish) evidence is increasingly pointing to their derivation from the old Khazarian Empire, which consisted mainly of converted Jews and not ethnic Jews at all. In this sense you would not find descendants of the Davidic line among Ashkenazi Jews, because their descendents have never been from the Israel region. Now at the fall of Khazaria, this region actually overlapped northern Kurdistan, which probably did contain a large number of ethnic Jews from the Jewish dispersion in the first century. So its more possible to find Jews of the line of David amongst Kurdish Jews than Ashkenazi Jews (as you say they are mostly from Germany/Eastern Europe).  

 

The amazing thing about this history is that the Ashkenazi Jews who control Israel and Europe have mainly a northern Kurdistan heritage, genetically very close to Kurds and yet not as close to the origin of Israel in the southern Mesopotamia (Abraham from the land of Ur). It is these four groups that are currently co-operating to create their own ethnic superstate in the Middle East:

 

A) Ashkenazi Jews (Khazar/northern Kurdistan heritage)

B) Ethnic Jews (Israel heritage)

C) Kurdish Jews (Kurdish and Israel heritage)

D) Kurds (Kurd and Khazar heritage) 

 

Northern Iraq (Iraqi Kurdistan)  is so embedded with Jewish military, intelligence and economic leadership its practically a Jewish sub-state.

[098]

The lethal wound that was healed has the following meaning: Christ dealt a fatal blow to Satan on the cross. Satan could not stop anyone from getting saved. He had no authority over the Holy Spirit. When God withdraws the Holy Spirit from the congregations during the tribulation period, Satan again can decieve people in that arena. There is no Holy Spirit or salvation there. In that sense, the wound is healed. It only is healed for the time of the tribulation. That is why endurance and patience is called for among the true believers. 

[other one]

The lethal wound that was healed has the following meaning: Christ dealt a fatal blow to Satan on the cross. Satan could not stop anyone from getting saved. He had no authority over the Holy Spirit. When God withdraws the Holy Spirit from the congregations during the tribulation period, Satan again can decieve people in that arena. There is no Holy Spirit or salvation there. In that sense, the wound is healed. It only is healed for the time of the tribulation. That is why endurance and patience is called for among the true believers. 

Jesus told us that no one could snatch us out of the hands of the Father.....     They will make war with the Saints and overcome them, but they can't deceive the saints.

 

The Bible says that the great deception would be so good as to deceive the saints, If that were possible.       but it is not possible or he would not have added "if it were possible" to the scripture.

 

As for the Holy Spirit, he dwells within us.    Are you saying that the Holy Spirit will leave us and leave us here by ourselves?