Revelation 13

[ARGOSY]

 

 

Lets turn the tables on this, until a Prophet does come to tell Israel that the mandate in Deuteronomy 23:6 is no longer enforced, Israel remains mandated to fullfill God's wishes in Deuteronomy 23:6 to the letter. Unless you wish Israel to no longer obey God?

 

Even though Israel had prophets and the counsel of the Lord during that purified period, they made a contract with the Gibeonites. They were forced to keep that contract. When Saul slaughtered the Gibeonites and broke that agreement God brought a famine into Israel:

 

Joshua 9:14 So the men of Israel took some of their provisions, and did not ask for the [f]counsel of the Lord.15 Joshua made peace with them and made a covenant with them, to let them live; and the leaders of the congregation swore an oath to them.

 

2 Samuel 21:21 Now there was a famine in the days of David for three years, year after year; andDavid sought the presence of the Lord. And the Lord said, “It is for Saul and his bloody house, because he put the Gibeonites to death.”

 

Leviticus 19:33 ‘When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. 34 The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God

 

So this means that even ancient Israel was judged for breaking agreements with the nations in their midst, how much more will modern sinful Kabbalistic Israel be judged for doing so? God will send an army to enter Israel, gratefully Israel will repent. Pray for the peace of Israel.

[ARGOSY]

ARGOSY

 

Your getting desperate.

 

Reread Deuteronomy 23:6 As long as you live, you must never promote the welfare and prosperity of the Ammonites or Moabites. ( ONLY THESE TWO GROUPS)

 

ONLY AMMONITES and MOABITES

 

God says this further

"You shall not detest an Edomite, for he is your brother; you shall not detest an Egyptian, because you were an alien in his land.…

 

IN otherwords treat everybody else like you would yourself, like the Edomites, like the Egyptians and even the Gibeonites and any other MITES or NITES that exist but NOT an AMMONITES or MOABITES who are modern day Palestinians....

 

Thousands of years later I'm not sure how correct you are. Many associate the Palestinians with Edomites, who are to be treated as brothers by the Israelites:

 

Deut 23:7 “You shall not detest an Edomite, for he is your brother; you shall not detest an Egyptian, because you were an alien in his land. 8 The sons of the third generation who are born to them may enter the assembly of the Lord

[other one]

Have you read the book of Obadiah?

[ARGOSY]

Have you read the book of Obadiah?

 

Yes a long time ago, but I had a quick look there now. Yes when God comes he will judge the nations. But its not up to us to create lakes of fire out of regions, and desolate other regions, and to remove mountains and islands. When Jesus comes the earth will be transformed and every nation will be judged and some will survive and some will not. In the meantime countries have a national morality and genocide/ethnic cleansing isn't appropriate. Let God judge the nations , not us. I agree with inchrist's Ammon/Moab argument, but this is referring to Jordan regions and possibly Saudi. These countries prosper because they have succumbed to the west. So the west/Israel is getting these nations back to front, they are friends with the Moabites, and anti the Edomites. 

[Defending the Name]

All beasts before the fourth existed during the old covenant age. The fourth best exist across the new covenant age. It is the worldly system that the Assyrian king of this world aka Satan runs. Isaiah 14 describes the Assyrians worldly estate as Babylon. The original Babylon of the old age collapsed, the new mystery Babylon is run by the fourth beast. It is the worldly system we love in today. All countries pay homage to the worldly system and thereby it is the king of this world who influences them.

Jesus once stated:

John 14:30-31

“I don’t have much more time to talk to you, because the ruler of this world approaches. He has no power over me, but I will do what the Father requires of me, so that the world will know that I love the Father. Come, let’s be going.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

Have you read the book of Obadiah?

 

Yes a long time ago, but I had a quick look there now. Yes when God comes he will judge the nations. But its not up to us to create lakes of fire out of regions, and desolate other regions, and to remove mountains and islands. When Jesus comes the earth will be transformed and every nation will be judged and some will survive and some will not. In the meantime countries have a national morality and genocide/ethnic cleansing isn't appropriate. Let God judge the nations , not us. I agree with inchrist's Ammon/Moab argument, but this is referring to Jordan regions and possibly Saudi. These countries prosper because they have succumbed to the west. So the west/Israel is getting these nations back to front, they are friends with the Moabites, and anti the Edomites. 

 

 

I don't think we agree at all

 

Perhaps maps are the best way to explain whats happening

 

 

The Ammonites have always desired to move west, so its not hard to imagine the Palestinians who are actually Jordanians getting what they want by fooling the world with this WestBank rubbish.

 

Abdul Hamid Sharif, Prime Minister of Jordan declared, in 1980, “The Palestinians and Jordanians do not belong to different nationalities. They hold the same Jordanian passports, are Arabs and have the same Jordanian culture.”

 

In Judges 11:13, the king of Ammon demanded the restoration of the land "from Arnon even unto Jabbok and unto Jordan." 

 

Where have we heard that one before?

 

Further the  term "Ammonite" denotes all peoples living in the former country of Ammon and Gad, including Samaritans

 

and well your sympathising with the "suffering" on the west bank ("In the meantime countries have a national morality and genocide/ethnic cleansing isn't appropriate") even though there is no evidence of ETHNIC CLeansing, perhaps you should also focus on the EAST BANK or what is Known as East Palestine

 

"Concerning the Ammonites: Thus says the LORD: 'Has Israel no sons? Has he no heir? Why then has Milcom dispossessed Gad, and his people settled in its towns? Therefore, the time is surely coming,' says the LORD, 'when I will sound the battle alarm against Rabbah of the Ammonites; it shall become a desolate mound, and its villages shall be burned with fire; then Israel shall dispossess those who dispossessed him,' says the LORD." (Jeremiah 49:1-2 NRSV)

 

Are you also going to cry Ethnic Cleansing?

 

I actually wonder who's side are you on? the Jews or the Palestines?

 

 

 

I'm on the side of the bible. 

 

From a Christian perspective all have sinned, and God can call anyone to Christ, salvation is for all, including the Ammonites. We don't have to take on the borders of Israel for ourselves, we reach out to the world in love, our home is the Jerusalem above.

 

You do have a point from an ethnic Jewish perspective though IF it can be proven that they are Ammonites/Moabites and not Edomites. But to refuse to bless someone or refuse a treaty of peace is completely different to deliberately oppressing someone. So I believe Israel is taking how they treat west Bank Palestinians too far.  I have also heard other reasonable arguments claiming they are descendents of Idumea (ie Edomites). Additionally an  overriding rule is that Israel has to keep its treaties which Israel has repeatedly not been doing. Even though Israel was supposed to destroy the Gibeonites they made a treaty and God enforced that treaty from then. So too must modern Israel keep treaties.

 

So its not all as black and white as you suppose , there is scope to treat these people better, and as the bible says, Israel is in sin before the second coming, not in a holy state. 

[Salty]

 

Salty

 

Well, you actually did not address the specific Amos 9:9 verse which shows all of the house of Israel inclusive gathered, but instead Amos 9:14-15 in conjunction with Jer.3:14.

 

We'll just have to disagree then, because I interpret Jer.3:14 to be mainly about His elect that will reign with Him, and not about all the seed of Israel, while it does not deny the gathering of all the house of Israel per Amos 9:9. If those two verses seem to conflict with each other, then it means one has not properly understood them, because neither of those two verses can conflict with each other. Per your view they do conflict with each other.

 

 

 

No its your rendering thats in conflict....

 

Let me explain it like this, let say the HOUSE Of Israel represents the ENTIRE population of AFRICA.....would the ENTIRE AFRICAN Population fit in to Israel? Hence Jesus would take 1 from here 2 from there and so forth, Becuase its simply impossible to fit the entire population of africa into Israel

 

So therefore Jesus can not gather ALL the population. 

 

This is why you  see God promising more land to the HOUSE of ISRAEL, this is why God promised that nations would be born out of the HOUSE of Israel and lastly this is why you see in Isaiah 66:18-22 and in Zechariah 14:16 and in Isaiah 10:22 that the majority of Israelites will remain in the Appointed Place throughout the Millennium and go year-to-year to pay homage to God.

 

So where am I exactly in conflict?

 

 

That's falling back once again on your notion about our Lord Jesus not being able to 'enlarge the tent' (Isa.54) to include believers from all nations to the area of the holy lands of promise, and not just the house of Judah and house of Israel that are still scattered today.

 

Your notion is simply based on this present flesh world, and not an understanding of the world to come, which is not about a resurrection to another flesh body, which would be the idea of reincarnation. Just because our limited 'flesh' thinking cannot fully grasp how the gathering of all the house of Israel back to the lands of promise can work, it does not mean to deny the actual Scripture like Amos 9:9 as it's written.

 

Imagine where the OT saints would be if every time God told them He was going to do something they refused to believe Him just because their fleshy mind couldn't fathom how it could be. Imagine where we'd be if we simply refused to believe it possible that The Father raised Jesus Christ from the dead.

[other one]

 

 

 

Have you read the book of Obadiah?

 

Yes a long time ago, but I had a quick look there now. Yes when God comes he will judge the nations. But its not up to us to create lakes of fire out of regions, and desolate other regions, and to remove mountains and islands. When Jesus comes the earth will be transformed and every nation will be judged and some will survive and some will not. In the meantime countries have a national morality and genocide/ethnic cleansing isn't appropriate. Let God judge the nations , not us. I agree with inchrist's Ammon/Moab argument, but this is referring to Jordan regions and possibly Saudi. These countries prosper because they have succumbed to the west. So the west/Israel is getting these nations back to front, they are friends with the Moabites, and anti the Edomites. 

 

 

I don't think we agree at all

 

Perhaps maps are the best way to explain whats happening

 

 

The Ammonites have always desired to move west, so its not hard to imagine the Palestinians who are actually Jordanians getting what they want by fooling the world with this WestBank rubbish.

 

Abdul Hamid Sharif, Prime Minister of Jordan declared, in 1980, “The Palestinians and Jordanians do not belong to different nationalities. They hold the same Jordanian passports, are Arabs and have the same Jordanian culture.”

 

In Judges 11:13, the king of Ammon demanded the restoration of the land "from Arnon even unto Jabbok and unto Jordan." 

 

Where have we heard that one before?

 

Further the  term "Ammonite" denotes all peoples living in the former country of Ammon and Gad, including Samaritans

 

and well your sympathising with the "suffering" on the west bank ("In the meantime countries have a national morality and genocide/ethnic cleansing isn't appropriate") even though there is no evidence of ETHNIC CLeansing, perhaps you should also focus on the EAST BANK or what is Known as East Palestine

 

"Concerning the Ammonites: Thus says the LORD: 'Has Israel no sons? Has he no heir? Why then has Milcom dispossessed Gad, and his people settled in its towns? Therefore, the time is surely coming,' says the LORD, 'when I will sound the battle alarm against Rabbah of the Ammonites; it shall become a desolate mound, and its villages shall be burned with fire; then Israel shall dispossess those who dispossessed him,' says the LORD." (Jeremiah 49:1-2 NRSV)

 

Are you also going to cry Ethnic Cleansing?

 

I actually wonder who's side are you on? the Jews or the Palestines?

 

 

Israel destroyed the nation of the Edomites thousands of years ago and they just sort of blended in with the Judea.    King Herod was an Edomite on his fathers side of the family.....      You won't find them on a map for they are still among Jews.

[Defending the Name]

The first beast and second beast are ages apart. The first beast is religious system dating back from the old covenant times and the second beast that carries on with the first beast's legacy and is christian in appearance (lamb like).

The mark of the beast is the first beast's mark and it is he that is being worshipped and not the second beast. The second beast is an advocate on behalf of the first beast. The first beast is a symbol of Babylon, whereas the second beast is a continuation of the fallen first century Babylon religious system as now the global mystery Babylon religion that encompasses the whole world.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Defending the Name

[other one]

The first beast and second beast are ages apart. The first beast is religious system dating back from the old covenant times and the second beast that carries on with the first beast's legacy and is christian in appearance (lamb like).

The mark of the beast is the first beast's mark and it is he that is being worshipped and not the second beast. The second beast is an advocate on behalf of the first beast. The first beast is a symbol of Babylon, whereas the second beast is a continuation of the fallen first century Babylon religious system as now the global mystery Babylon religion that encompasses the whole world.

how do you throw the second beast and the false prophet in the fire if the beast is a religious system   The beast has to be some kind of entity or we couldn't throw it into the fire.