the Crusades were for the Christian faith?

[Guest]

The history speaks for itself - by their fruits you shall know them.

 

~

 

Amen~!

[OldSchool2]

"How many Jewish babies can be fit onto a spear" gives some evidence as to just how Christian the crusades were ...

What is the source for your quote?

[Macs Son]

It was really based upon "Replacement Theology."

Hi Parker1

I see no evidence that the Crusades were ever based on Supercession (aka replacement theology). They had nothing to do with the nullification of Abrahamic covenant but everything to do with Islamic Jihad and Islamic territorial aggression. Prior to the Pope Urban the 2nd calling for Christian nations to band together in order to go on the offensive against this aggression most Christian nations had been decimated and by force brought under the yoke of Islam. Unifying and fighting it off was really what was at the root of unifying Christendom with the goal of recapturing Jerusalem, which was once under Byzantine rule but had fell to the Islamic invasion in the 7th century. I posted a link above which basically captures the prior 500 years our present day history classes don't teach you any longer because of political correctness - here's a summarized version

610: Muhammad had a religious experience on Mount Hira that changed his life.

613: Persians capture Damascus and Antioch.

614: Persians sack Jerusalem. damaging the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in the process.

621: Abu Jahl became leader of a mounting opposition to Muslims in Mecca and organized a boycott of merchants in Mohammad's clan, the Hashim.

622: About 75 converts from Medina took the two Pledges of al-Aqaba, professing to Islam and to protect Muhammad from all danger.

624: Muhammad broke with his Jewish supporters because they refused to recognize him as a prophet and adopt Isalm. He chose now to emphasize the Arabness of the new religion and has his followers face Mecca when praying instead of Jerusalem. In the end, all the Jews were either banished or executed.

March 15, 624: At the Battle of Abdr, Muhammad and his followers defeated an army from Mecca. Muhammad's chief rival in Mecca, Abu Jahl, was executed.

627: Meccan leader Abu Sufyan (c. 567 - c. 655) laid siege to Muhammad's forces in Medina during the battle of the Trench. Even with 10,000 men he was unsuccessful for the 15 days he was there. Muhammad suspected the Banu Quraiza Jews of helping the Meccans and had all the men killed.

630: An army of 30,000 Muslims marched on Mecca which surrendered with little resistance. Muhammad took control of the city and made it the spiritual center of Islam.

633: Muslims conquer Syria and Iraq.

634: Victory against the Byzantines in Palestine (Ajnadayn).

634-644: Umar (c. 591-644) reigns as the second caliph. The Muslims subjugate Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Mesopotamia and Persia. Garrisons established in the conquered lands, and the Muslim rulers begin to take control of financial organisation.

635: Muslims begin the conquest of Persia and Syria.

635: Arab Muslims capture the city of Damascus from the Byzantines.

636 (?): The Arabs under Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas defeat a Sasanian army in the battle of Qadisiyya (near Hira), gaining Iraq west of the Tigris. A second victory follows at Jalula, near Ctesiphon.

637: The Arabs occupy the Persian capital of Ctesiphon. By 651, the entire Persian realm would come under the rule of Islam and continued its westward expansion.

637: Syria is conquered by Muslim forces.

637: Jerusalem falls to invading Muslim forces.

639-42: Conquest of Egypt (642 taking of Alexandria) by 'Amr ibn al-'As. Muslims capture the sea port of Caesarea in Palestine, marking end of the Byzantine presence in Syria.

641: Under the leadership of Abd-al-Rahman, Muslims conquer southern areas of Azerbaijan, Daghestan, Georgia, and Armenia.

641/2: Under the leadership of Amr ibn al-As, Muslims conquer the Byzantine city of Alexandria in Egypt. Amr forbids the looting of the city and proclaims freedom of worship for all. According to some accounts, he also has what was left of the Great Library burned the following year. Al-As creates the first Muslim city in Egypt, al-Fustat, and builds there the first mosque in Egypt.

652: Sicily is attacked by Muslims coming out of Tunisia (named Ifriqiya by the Muslims, a name later given to the entire continent of Africa).

653: Muawiya I leads a raid against Rhodes, taking the remaining pieces of the Colossus of Rhodes (one of the Seven Wonders of the ancient world) and shipping it back to Syria to be sold as scrap metal.

654: Muawiya I conquers Cyprus and stations a large garrison there. The island would remain in Muslim hands until 0966.

655: Battle of the Masts: In one of the few Muslim naval victories in the entire history of Islam, Muslim forces under the command of Uthman bin Affan defeat Byzantine forces under Emperor Constant II. The battle takes place off the coast of Lycia and is an important stage in the decline of Byzantine power.

662: Egypt fell to the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphates until 868 A.D. A year prior, the Fertile Crescent and Persia yielded to the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphates, whose rule lasted until 1258 and 820, respectively.

667: The Arabs occupy Chalcedon, threatening Constantinope. Sicily is attacked by Muslims sailing from Tunisia.

668: First Siege of Constantinople: This attack lasts off and on for seven years, with the Muslim forces generally spending the winters on the island of Cyzicus, a few miles south of Constantinople, and only sailing against the city during the spring and summer months.

669: The Muslim conquest reaches to Morocco in North Africa. 672: Muslims under Mauwiya I capture the island of Rhodes.

672: Beginning of the 'seven year' Arab siege of Constantinople.

674: Arab conquest reaches the Indus River.

677: Muslims send a large fleet against Constantinople in an effort to finally break the city, but they are defeated so badly through the Byzantine use of Greek Fire that they are forced to pay an indemnity to the Emperor.

698: Muslims capture Carthage in North Africa.

700: Muslims from Pamntelleria raid the island of Sicily.

711: With the further conquest of Egypt, Spain and North Africa, Islam included all of the Persian empire and most of the old Roman world under Islamic rule. Muslims began the conquest of Sindh in Afghanistan.

April 711: Tariq ibn Malik, a Berber officer, crosses the strait separating Africa and Europe with a group of Muslims and enters Spain

July 19, 711: Battle of Guadalete: Tariq ibn Ziyad kills King Rodrigo (or Roderic), Visigoth ruler of Spain, at the Guadalete River in the south of the Iberian peninsula. Tariq ibn Ziyad had landed at Gibraltar with 7,000 Muslims at the invitation of heirs of the late Visigoth King Witica (Witiza) who wanted to get rid of Rodrigo (this group includes Oppas, the bishop of Toledo and primate of all Spain, who happens to be the brother of the late king Witica). Ziyad, however, refuses to turn control of the region back over to the heirs of Witica. Almost the entire Iberian peninsula would come under Islamic control by 718.

712: Muslim governor of Northern Africa Musa ibn Nusayr follows Tariq ibn Ziyad with an army of 18,000 as reinforcements for the conquest of Andalusia. Musa's father had been a Catholic Yemenite studying to be a priest in Iraq when he was captured in Iraq by Khalid, the "Sword of Islam," and forced to choose between conversion or death. This invasion of Iraq had been one of the last military orders given by Muhammed before his death.

715: By this year just about all of Spain is in Muslim hands. The Muslim conquest of Spain only took around three years but the Christian reconquest would require around 460 years (it might have gone faster had the various Christian kingdoms not been at each other' throats much of the time). Musa's son, Abd el-Aziz, is left in charge and makes his capital the city of Seville, where he married Egilona, widow of king Rodrigo. Caliph Suleiman, a paranoid ruler, would have el-Aziz assassinated and sends Musa into exile in his native Yemen village to live out his days as a beggar.

716: Lisbon is captured by Muslims.

717: Cordova (Qurtuba) becomes the capital of Muslim holdings in Andalusia (Spain).

717: Second Siege of Constantinople: Taking advantage of the civil unrest in the Byzantine Empire, Caliph Sulieman sends 120,000 Muslims under the command of his brother, Moslemah, to launch the second siege of Constantinople.

719: Muslims attack Septimania in southern France (so named because it was the base of operations for Rome's Seventh Legion) and become established in the region known as Languedoc, made famous several hundred years later as the center of the Cathar heresy.

721: A Muslim army under the command of Al-Semah and that had crossed the Pyrenees is defeated by the Franks near Toulouse. Al-Semah is killed and his remaining forces, which had previously conquered Narbonne, are forced back across the Pyrenees into Spain.

722: Battle of Covadonga: Pelayo, (690-737) Visigoth noble who had been elected the first King of Asturias (718-0737), defeats a Muslim army at Alcama near Covadonga. This is generally regarded as the first real Christian victory over the Muslims in the Reconquista.

724: Under the command of Ambissa, Emir of Andalusia, Muslim forces raid southern France and capture the cities of Carcassone and Nimes. 725: Muslim forces occupied Nimes, France.

730: Muslim forces occupy the French cities of Narbonne and Avignon.

732: Battle of Tours: With perhaps 1,500 soldiers, Charles Martel halts a Muslim force of around 40,000 to 60,000 cavalry under Abd el-Rahman Al Ghafiqi from moving farther into Europe.

735: Muslim invaders capture the city of Arles.

737: Charles Martel sends his brother, Childebrand, to lay siege to Avignon and drive out the Muslim occupiers. Childebrand is successful and, according to records, has all the Muslims in the city killed.

739: Already having retaken Narbonne, Beziers, Montpellier, and Nimes during the previous couple of years, Childebrand captures Marseille, one of the largest French cities still in Muslim hands.

759: Arabs lose the city of Narbonne, France, their furthest and last conquest into Frankish territory. In capturing this city Pippin III (Pippin the Short) ends the Muslim incursions in France.

785: The Great Mosque in Cordoba, in Muslim controlled Spain, was built.

792: Hisham I, emir of Cordova, calls for a Jihad against the infidels in Andalusia and France.

813: Muslims attack the Civi Vecchia near Rome.

827: Sicily is invaded by Muslims who, this time, are looking to take control of the island rather than simply taking away booty.

831: Muslim invaders capture the Sicilian city of Palermo and make it their capital.

838: Muslim raiders sack Marseille.

841: Muslim forces capture Bari, principle Byzantine base in southeastern Italy.

846: Muslim raiders sail a fleet of ships from Africa up the Tiber river and attack outlying areas around Ostia and Rome.

849: Battle of Ostia: Aghlabid monarch Muhammad sends a fleet of ships from Sardinia to attack Rome. As the fleet prepares to land troops, the combination of a large storm and an alliance of Christian forces were able to destroy the Muslims ships.

851: Abd al-Rahman II has eleven young Christians executed in the city of Cordova after they deliberately seek out martyrdom by insulting the Prophet Muhammed.

858: Muslim raiders attack Constantinople.

859: Muslim invaders capture the Sicilian city of Castrogiovanni (Enna), slaughtering several thousand inhabitants.

869: Arabs capture the island of Malta.

870: After a month-long siege, the Sicilian city of Syracuse is captured by Muslim invaders.

876: Muslims pillage Campagna in Italy.

880: Under Emperor Basil, the Byzantines recapture lands occupied by Arabs in Italy.

884: Muslims invading Italy burn the monastery of Monte Cassino to the ground.

902: The Muslim conquest of Sicily is completed when the last Christian stronghold, the city of Taorminia, is captured. Muslim rule of Sicily would last for 264 years.

911: Muslims control all the passes in the Alps between France and Italy, cutting off passage between the two countries.

916: A combined force of Greek and German emperors and Italian city-states defeat Muslim invaders at Garigliano, putting Muslim raids in Italy to an end.

920: Muslim forces cross the Pyrenees, enter Gascony, and reach as far as the gates of Toulouse.

939: Madrid is recaptured from Muslim forces.

961: Death of Abd al-Rahman III, generally regarded as the greatest of the Umayyad caliphs in Andalusia. Under his rule, Cordova became one of the most powerful centers of Islamic learning and power. He is succeeded by Abdallah, a caliph who would kill many of his rivals (even family members) and has captured Christians decapitated if they refuse to convert to Islam.

961: Under the command of general Nicephorus Phokas, the Byzantines recapture Crete from Muslim rebels who had earlier fled Cordova.

965: Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus Phokas reconquers Cyprus from the Muslims.

965: Grenoble is recaptured from the Muslims.

969: Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus II Phocas reconquers Antioch (modern Antakya, capital of the province Hatay) from the Arabs.

972: The Muslims in the Sisteron district of France surrender to Christian forces and their leader asks to be baptized.

981: Ramiro III, king of Leon, is defeated by Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir (Almanzor) at Rueda and is forced to begin paying tribute to the Caliph of Cordova.

985: Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir sacks Barcelona

994: The monastery of Monte Cassino is destroyed a second time by Arabs.

997: Under the leadership of Almanzor, Muslim forces march out of the city of Cordova and head north to capture Christian lands.

Muslim forces under Almanzor arrive at the city of Compostela. The city had been evacuated and Almanzor burns it to the ground.

1004: Arab raiders sack the Italian city of Pisa.

1009: Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, founder of the Druze sect and sixth Fatimid Caliph in Egypt, orders the Holy Sepulcher and all Christian buildings in Jerusalem be destroyed.

1012: Berber forces capture Cordova and order that half the population be executed.

1013: Jews are expelled from the Umayyad Caliphate of Cordova, then ruled by Sulaimann.

1015: Arab Muslim forces conquer Sardinia.

1021: Caliph al-Hakim proclaimed himself to be divine and founded the Druze sect.

1023: Muslims expel the Berber rulers from Cordova and install Abd er-Rahman V as caliph.

1031: The Moorish Caliphate of Córdoba falls.

1050: Byzantine emperor Constantine IX Monomachos restores the complex of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem.

1055: Seljuk Turks capture Baghdad.

1064-1091: The Normans recapture Sicily from the Muslims.

1064: The Seljuk Turks conquer Christian Armenia.

1070: Seljuk Turks capture Jerusalem from the Fatimids. Seljuk rule is not quite as tolerant as that of the Fatimids and Christian pilgrims begin returning to Europe with tales of persecution and oppression.

1071-1085: Seljuk Turks conquer most of Syria and Palestine.

August 19, 1071: Battle of Manzikert: Alp Arslan leads an army of Seljuk Turks against the Byzantine Empire near Lake Van. Numbering perhaps as many as 100,000 men, the Turks take the fortresses of Akhlat and Manzikert before Byzantine Emperor Romanus IV Diogenes can respond.

1073: Seljuk Turks conquer Ankara.

1078: Seljuk Turks capture Nicaea. It would change hands three more times, finally coming under control of the Turks again in 1086.

1080: An Armenian state is founded in Cilicia, a district on the southeastern coast of Asia Minor (Turkey), north of Cyprus, by refugees feeling the Seljuk invasion of their Armenian homeland. A Christian kingdom located in the midst of hostile Muslim states and lacking good relations with the Byzantine Empire, "Armenia Minor" would provide important assistance to Crusaders from Europe.

1084: Seljuk Turks conquer Antioch, a strategically important city.

1086: Battle of Zallaca (Sagrajas): Spanish forces under Alfonso VI of Castile are defeated by the Moors and their allies

1088: Patzinak Turks begin forming settlements between the Danube and the Balkans.

1089: Byzantine forces conquer the island of Crete.

1090: Yusuf Ibn Tashfin, King of the Almoravids, captures Granada.

1091: The last Arabic fortress in Sicily falls to the Normans.

1091: Cordova (Qurtuba) is captured by the Almoravids.

1094: El Cid captures Valencia from the Moors

1094: The Almoravids from Morocco land near Cuarte and lay siege to Valencia with 50,000 men. El Cid, however, breaks the siege and forces the Amoravids to flee - the first Christian victory against the hard-fighting Africans.

1095: Pope Urban II opens the Council of Clermont where ambassadors from the Byzantine emperor Alexius I Comnenus, asking help against the Muslims

FIRST CRUSADE (1096-99)

I think there was little doubt enough was enough and the conclusion was a unified force vs. mere pockets of local resistance was needed to reclaim the native lands of Christians. He did set a goal to recapture Jerusalem which had been taken centuries earlier as well. It's academic why Europe got behind the crusades since almost every single country had been attacked. Its easy to sit back knowing how out of control these war would get but we should at least try to understand that 500 years of attacks, pillage and execution had taken their toll on these people and on their nations.

Regards, Pat

Edited July 13, 2014 by Macs Son

[Persuaded]

"How many Jewish babies can be fit onto a spear" gives some evidence as to just how Christian the crusades were ...

What is the source for your quote?

Just a memorable quote from a long ago history lesson.

Similar are found with an internet search of crusade, Jewish, killing, or the Rhineland Massacre.

[Guest shiloh357]

The crusades were a response to Muslim murders of Christians who were making pilgrimages to the holy land, Jerusalem in particular.  It morphed into something else later that was awful, but the Muslims really caused the crusades to happen in the beginning.

[other one]

Look at how the Jihadists fight today and you will see what one has to do to defeat such an enemy.    If we are going to defeat them today, we will have to much the same as the crusaders.   Saddam was a despicable tyrant, but it was the only way to control these people.  Wherever radical Muslims are left unchecked, non Muslims die.

 

And if you think God does not understand how to deal with them just do some reading on his directions concerning Amalekites and Canaanites.

[Qnts2]

The crusaders killed anyone who was not a Christian. Thousands of Jews were slaughtered. As well as Muslim women and children.

 

While a government of a country has a right to defend it's citizens, when the war is conducted in Jesus name, it becomes an issue. And that was the problem. There is only one war which will be conducted in Jesus name and that is one led by Jesus.

 

The crusaders did believe in Replacement theology, as they were claiming Jerusalem, wanting it under 'Christian' control as a Christian right. Jerusalem was not a Christian right, but was given by God to the Jewish people. That the Muslims had control was a part of the punishment of dispersement. But when the crusaders fought in Jerusalem, they also targetted the Jewish people who were there, because the Jewish people did not believe in Jesus, and the Jewish people fought along side the Muslims due to the violence of the Crusaders.  

 

So, some simple Christian questions.

 

Is it Christian to kill unbelievers?

Is it biblically Christian to fight for land to claim for Jesus?.

Is it biblically Christian to believe killing unbelievers will gain you better status before God?

 

The were two very grave issues, people were slaughtered with no mercy, and this was done in Jesus name. The truth of the crusades was that people who needed to hear the gospel have memories of torture and slaughter in Jesus name for many generations. The crusades did tremendous damage to the real biblical mission. 

[Macs Son]

"How many Jewish babies can be fit onto a spear" gives some evidence as to just how Christian the crusades were ...

What is the source for your quote?

Just a memorable quote from a long ago history lesson.

Similar are found with an internet search of crusade, Jewish, killing, or the Rhineland Massacre.

Perhaps memorable to you but most likely apocryphal and more than likely just meant to stir peoples emotions up. It's sometime amazing to me how little verifiable history is actually taught. The popular versions of history are sometimes very poor judges of what actually happened but I do believe that God will judge all history in truth and leave us no doubt as to what the truth is when He tells His Story on judgment day.

Pat

[Macs Son]

The crusaders killed anyone who was not a Christian. Thousands of Jews were slaughtered. As well as Muslim women and children.

 

While a government of a country has a right to defend it's citizens, when the war is conducted in Jesus name, it becomes an issue. And that was the problem. There is only one war which will be conducted in Jesus name and that is one led by Jesus.

 

The crusaders did believe in Replacement theology, as they were claiming Jerusalem, wanting it under 'Christian' control as a Christian right. Jerusalem was not a Christian right, but was given by God to the Jewish people. That the Muslims had control was a part of the punishment of dispersement. But when the crusaders fought in Jerusalem, they also targetted the Jewish people who were there, because the Jewish people did not believe in Jesus, and the Jewish people fought along side the Muslims due to the violence of the Crusaders.  

 

So, some simple Christian questions.

 

1. Is it Christian to kill unbelievers?

2. Is it biblically Christian to fight for land to claim for Jesus?.

3. Is it biblically Christian to believe killing unbelievers will gain you better status before God?

 

The were two very grave issues, people were slaughtered with no mercy, and this was done in Jesus name. The truth of the crusades was that people who needed to hear the gospel have memories of torture and slaughter in Jesus name for many generations. The crusades did tremendous damage to the real biblical mission.

A good policy for establishing truth from Paul:

This will be the third time I am coming to you. “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.”

Hi Qnts2

Firstly let me say there were many, many, many things wrong with the crusades but the point here is the western world has totally lost the context of why they actually occurred and has turned the blame totally on the Christian people who lived in that era. In doing so they have put themselves totally above the fray and somewhat condescendingly judged the people of that era as unrighteous bigots and nothing more. We at least owe it to those generations to dig a little deeper into their predicament before we hand out those kind of indictments.

I said before the crusades had nothing to do with super-cession and everything to do with the violence being propagated against countries and cities that were Christian. Now no one is invading Montpellier today but in 739 the Muslim Jihadists were and in many cases they were putting Christians to the sword, something that was done on and off during the 500 years of jihadi attacks upon Eastern and western Europe. The factual background on the previous 500 years seems to be totally lacking from this debate. So how can we hope to understand motive when most don't even realize what was transpiring in the half millennia of Islamic aggression prior to crusades themselves? To me this is simple cause and effect principle.

So, basically, I don't think all your questions are really relevant to the times in question. Fighting disparate local engagements was not seen as something that was going to solve this ongoing 500 year old problem and this was recognized on a global scale by both Eastern and Western Christian nations. The aggression was not going to stop if they said let's play nice and you can keep Jerusalem. That said I'll answer your questions.

1.

It wasn't a war to kill unbelievers but a war to liberate Christian people who were being slaughtered and conquered for nearly 500 years from jihad. That said many crusaders did have wrong motives, just as in all wars there are mixtures of motives and good and bad decisions. Some might look at World War II as a just war in liberating Europe from Nazi's tyranny, and I would agree wholeheartedly with that assessment. That said there were darker elements to it that the liberating forces might wish they could take back. It gets very hard to judge. Many Americans think Vietnam was an immoral war and turned their backs on America's soldiers but at the same time said nothing when 10's of thousands Vietnamese refugees known as boat people drowned or were attacked and killed in the South China Sea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_boat_people

Some injustices just seem to get buried when it's not convenient to see there are two sides to every story. Now this could turn into a huge moral discussion but at its most basic ethical level if you saw a criminal attacking a peace loving woman or child with deadly intent and you were the only one around, would your conscience tell you to step into the fray and protect? Of course that is a hypothetical question and some might not think it fair but that is precisely my point, especially when not armed with all the facts.

2. No, it is not but one might have a pretty good argument that Jerusalem was not a Islamic city in the first place or the second place for that matter. After Titus the Roman general in AD70 fulfilled Jesus prophesied that Jerusalem and the temple would be destroyed.

 

Matthew 24:2

And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Luke 21:6

“These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

Now the subsequent decade saw Jerusalem's gradual reoccupation by the Jews but the temple was never rebuilt. Then 50 years later the city became completely off limits to the Jews, which Justin Martyr also records for us in his dialog with Trypho. That edict did not come by the Christians but by the Romans Emperor Hadrian, who was pagan. Christians in fact would continue to be persecuted by the Romans for almost another 200 years at that time.

The final war between Romans and Jews was waged in Palestine in 133-135 A.D. Led by Simon Bar Kochba. The Jewish rebellion was caused by Roman actions which are also historically uncertain. Again, hundreds of thousands of Jews were slaughtered and so many sold into captivity that their price fell to that of a horse. All Jews were expelled from Jerusalem, which became a city of gentiles.

But it did eventually become a Christian city after Constantine made it so. Afterwards it remained a Christian city for 300 years until it was conquered by Muslim Jihadists in AD 637, so we can hardly infer it was an Islamic city or that Christians had no right to claim it as theirs. In AD 800 they gave the rights to the Frankish king for Christians to worship there but all that changed in AD1070 when rival Islamic faction, the Seljuk Turks, captured Jerusalem from the Fatimids, and began oppressing and persecuting Christians. This became one of the factors in deciding to retake the city.

3. That's simple, the answer is "no" and no where in the Bible does it teach that. However the same might not be said of the Quran nor the Hadith but I'm not sure the western world is really cognizant of that.

Quran 3:151

"Soon shall we cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran 5:33

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran 8:12

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran 9:29

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran 17:16

"And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction."

Bukhari 52:177

"The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Tabari 7:97

"Kill any Jew who falls under your power."

Tabari 9:69

"Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992:

"Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah."

I make no other comment here as to whether any of the above verses are actually believed by the Muslim community but it is in there, just as it was during the Islamic invasions and the crusades. Anyway my main point is to know this volatile time better before rushing to judgment. I think all of history has something to teach us if we examine it more closely.

Regards, Pat

Edited July 13, 2014 by Macs Son

[Guest]

FYI: http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Crusades_Jews.htm