Sevenseas Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.75 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2014 The Bible does not say it was a demon. The OT has plenty to say when false prophets spoke falsely so I do not see room to interpret the passage regarding Saul and the witch of Endor in a way different from the text. I do understand why some would be quick to say it was demon though but I'm not going to argue the point as the Bible does not indicate the spirit was a demon. It would make more sense, because they do use the name Samuel plenty of times. Do you think witches in the 21st century can bring up dead people, or was this just a one time event with God. Yuh know, I don't think so because the case of Samuel seems to be isolated in the Bible and Samuel was personal prophet to King Saul. The Bible indicates that there is a barrier between the living and dead which the dead cannot cross. Having had some rather nasty experiences with present day 'witches' however, I do know they are basically in league with the devil and do have demonic power. The Bible tells us to have absolutely nothing to do with occultic powers....in fact, in the OT, witches were to be put to death and their closest family members were told to not even mourn them. “A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.” Lev.20:27 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there.10Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. 13You must be blameless before the Lord your God. Deut 18 There are numerous references to occult practices throughout the OT and the NT deals with witchcraft and mediums as absolutely forbidden also. In fact, in the book of Revelation, we read this: 12“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 600 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,391 Content Per Day: 7.55 Reputation: 28,141 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2014 Do you think witches in the 21st century can bring up dead people, or was this just a one time event with God. That is a very interesting question....... saying yes kind of goes against what I've been taught about what happens to us when we die. I've really never looked deeply into it myself.. I don't know if it would ever be possible to know if a spirit was a loved one or a demonic entity. you got me pondering on this and in doing just a short word searche in the Bible I find that the Bible makes a bid deal about witches and mediums..... interestingly, I don't see places that tell us that they are fake, just forbidden. I'm going to have to give this some thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.75 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2014 I think I said that AND included scripture references? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscapp Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 253 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/20/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 Yuh know, I don't think so because the case of Samuel seems to be isolated in the Bible and Samuel was personal prophet to King Saul. So you believe (1) God raised Samuel or (2) the witched raised Samuel or (3) the witch raised a demon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 600 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,391 Content Per Day: 7.55 Reputation: 28,141 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2014 Yuh know, I don't think so because the case of Samuel seems to be isolated in the Bible and Samuel was personal prophet to King Saul. ( I did not write this....) So you believe (1) God raised Samuel or (2) the witched raised Samuel or (3) the witch raised a demon? I don't think anyone raised Samuel, Just spiritually saw him and talked and that was the doings of the witch... btw watch how you quote people for I did not write what you show as me on your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted August 1, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2014 Looks like people have mixed feelings here. Interesting. Seeing Saul went to see a witch ought to tell you something. If you seek the dark side you will find the dark side. We are not to dabble in nor play with familiar spirits for they are not of God. Does post 2 have any thoughts. Well with respect I can offer three different possible explanations or ways of understanding how it was that Samuel appeared in that way. It would take a long time to go into the whole background and history of Saul that led up to this point in the story. The first one is that this woman was simply pretending. She by means of this explanation actually saw nothing at all. She was just making it up. She was in one room and the king was in the next room. She was pretending to see a figure and explaining what she saw. The king in the adjoining room reacted to what she said which of course was all invented. I personally DON'T think it is the true explanation but it is an explanation which some people have adopted as their belief. However my objection to that explanation is this. If that woman was pretending and saw nothing really but only made it up then why was she so surprised? This witch saw something that alarmed and astonished her to the point it caused her to "cry out in a loud voice" (1 Samuel 28:12). So in light of that verse I personally find it very hard to believe that this witch was simply inventing the story as she went along. I find it hard to imagine that she was seeing nothing at all but simply pretending. My rejection of this explanation is as I've pointed out - why then was she so astonished so alarmed at what she saw if she had indeed saw nothing. This is the first explanation and I am inclined to dismiss that one. A second explanation is this. That Samuel really did in fact come back from the dead. There are those who believe this. They think that on this particular occasion very peculiarly. That God allowed the prophet Samuel who had been in the state of glory for some time to have come back from the dead and appear in the shape and form and to speak with the same voice. Which they could reconize as the voice of Samuel. And what the witch actually saw was indeed Samuel himself in his very appearance as if he was risen back from the dead. Some people take this to be an explanation. Personally I don't find this convincing at all and here is why. When the soul of a believer has left the body and gone into glory. God does not take the souls back into this world. NO! Whatever it was that happened this surely was not the case that the real Samuel was there. Once the breath has left the body God does not bring it back into this world. I think this is an objection that cannot be answered. The last and third reason which I personally do believe and can offer to be the correct one in this. God in HIS judgment upon the sins of Saul, allowed the devil to impersonate Samuel. Scripture states that the devil can transform himself into an angel (messenger) of light. The bible as some knows that it does tells us that. It seems apparent to me that what happened was the devil was given the ability and the power of God to appear in the shape as it were of Samuel himself. I believe as well that this was allowed in order that Saul may be more punished for his wickedness in consulting with a woman (witch) that had a familiar spirit. The passage of scripture in itself is mysterious and I can give this - as the only satisfactory explanation. That the devil was allowed to appear in the form of Samuel like an apparition and to speak these words that were terrible for the king to hear. Scripture tells us that when Saul had heard these words he "fell straightway all along on the earth and was sore afraid because of the words of Samuel (1 Samuel 28:20). They did him no good they brought him no comfort and gave him no assurance. What he heard was "tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me" (1 Samuel 28:19) meaning in death. The verses in 1 Samuel 31 you can read in them where these very things came true. The next day in battle Saul was killed by the archers. When he was wounded and was afraid that the Philistines would catch him before he died and would abuse and torture him he told his armour bearer to kill him. The man was afraid so Saul instead took out his own sword and fell on top of it (1 Samuel 31:4) comitting suicide. The armour bearer turned around and did the same thing (1 Samuel 31:5). Saul along with his sons fell on mount Gilboa it that very battle the next day. There is a verse of scripture worth pointing out which may not be sufficently well known which says, "So Saul died for his transgressions which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit to inquire of it; And inquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse" (1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Can you see that? Perhaps maybe you never seen these words before I don't know. But the very thing for which Saul was killed by God was for the wickedness of going to see a witch. Scripture says, "Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God" (Leviticus 19:31). The point is clear to see we are to have nothing to do with wizardry or witchcraft or magic or sorcery or necromancy. All of these things goes and belongs together and we call it the occult. God is a pure and holy Spirit that does not defile us or make us unclean. We don't need to consult with demons, devils, magic, necromancers, witches, wizards or spiritualists we don't need them we have the very word of God and his Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. Besides they are not going to help us anyway. God wouldn't have turned away or killed Saul for his wickedness if he would have had a broken and contrite heart before the Lord. The Lord would have given him grace and mercy and forgiveness for his sins that was within his heart which were many. But Saul never seemed to be converted to faith in God he never was changed by the power of God. Saul had a murderous heart towards David and was jealous of him. Several times Saul throwed his javelin at David and he barely escaped death. For a long time Saul pursued after David and sought to kill him. David never gave or did any thing to Saul in which to give him just cause to kill him. There is so much background and history that led up to this tragic point in King Saul's life that has and should be taken into account when seeking understanding on the topic of the OP and not just a few scriptures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reformed Baptist Posted August 1, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 235 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/16/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/01/1973 Share Posted August 1, 2014 The Bible says that Samuel spoke to Saul....... I would suggest that you not say that the Bible was wrong. It says it was Samuel....... it was Samuel... 1 Sam 28:15 15 Then Samuel said to Saul , "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" NASB The Bible reports what Saul understood to be happening. We must remember that Saul never lied eyes upon the apparition - look at v14 where he asks the witch to describe the person she sees. there we are told that Saul 'perceived' that it was Samuel - Saul never saw the person, only the which did. This is a difficult text that cannot be answered as simply as the bible says it was Samuel therefore it was Samuel - for that to be the case one needs to establish that the Bible is not just recounting the story through the eye of the beholder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted August 1, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.75 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2014 Yuh know, I don't think so because the case of Samuel seems to be isolated in the Bible and Samuel was personal prophet to King Saul. So you believe (1) God raised Samuel or (2) the witched raised Samuel or (3) the witch raised a demon? Other one is right...somehow you quoted him and I am the writer of the quote...now that we have all that straightened out...no worries though I simply state again that I believe an exception was made in the case of Saul and Samuel....and that it was as the Bible says it was. I did provide a link regarding this and I think a good case can be made that it was in fact a genuine visitation from the spirit of Samuel. The passage does not give us any reason to believe it was anyone other than Samuel, who is described by the medium as “an old man wearing a robe” (v. 14). Obviously, age and clothing do not exist in the realm of the spirits of those who have died, but God miraculously gave Samuel such appearances as would enable Saul perceive who the spirit was. The message Samuel gave Saul was completely accurate. God allowed the witch of Endor to summon the prophet Samuel in order to give King Saul the news of his coming defeat and death.Read more:http://www.gotquesti...l#ixzz38naU9NMG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted August 1, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 600 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,391 Content Per Day: 7.55 Reputation: 28,141 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2014 The Bible still says that Samuel spoke to Saul.... I would find it very disturbing if a Demon passed on information to Saul without us knowing it wasn't Samuel. What I see here is a view that the Dead can't be reached where they are in any fashion and some are reading into what the Word actually says to make things fit with their views on the possibilities.... Obviously in my view Saul understood it to be Samuel, and we are not told that it was not Samuel...... but if it makes you more comfortable with the subject carry on with your views..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted August 1, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.75 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2014 I was just going to post that very thing from scripture. In fact, it seems that Saul was left alone with the spirit with whom he was talking as the medium is described as coming back to talk with Saul so it sounds like she left him alone. The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?” The woman said, “I see a ghostly figurea coming up out of the earth.” 14“What does he look like?” he asked. “An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 15Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” “I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.” 16Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17The Lordhas done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.” 20Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and all that night. 21When the woman came to Saul and saw that he was greatly shaken, she said, “Look, your servant has obeyed you. I took my life in my hands and did what you told me to do I see no indication that anything similar happend elsewhere other than the parable Jesus gave concerning the rich man and Lazarus. And from that story, we gather that there is a divide between the place of torment and heaven that cannot be crossed over by the respective occupants Anyway, that's it for me in this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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