The word 'olam'

[gdemoss]

On what authority does one declare that flawed men translated the Scriptures? Why could it not have been Holy men moved by the Holy Spirit? Please take note I am not declaring it was but merely asking for the authority of the one making their declaration.

[OneLight]

As I read through this discussion, I looked into the Hebrew meaning of the word, not the English means, and came across a site called the Ancient Hebrew Research Center. There I found their meaning of olam.
 

In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time.

Also, realize that death and Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death and will last for eons of the eons. Please study the original text when you have questions about the meaning of words.  One does not have to be a Hebrew or Greek scholar, only know where to find what these scholars present.  Allow the Holy Spirit to guide you through your understanding of the meanings of words, as when we find the word eons in Revelation 20.  As Shiloh said, English is limited to a certain thought pattern.

[Butch5]

As I read through this discussion, I looked into the Hebrew meaning of the word, not the English means, and came across a site called the Ancient Hebrew Research Center. There I found their meaning of olam.

 

In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time.

Also, realize that death and Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death and will last for eons of the eons. Please study the original text when you have questions about the meaning of words.  One does not have to be a Hebrew or Greek scholar, only know where to find what these scholars present.  Allow the Holy Spirit to guide you through your understanding of the meanings of words, as when we find the word eons in Revelation 20.  As Shiloh said, English is limited to a certain thought pattern.

This is very good. This is exactly how I see olam. It's important that we look at these words from a Jewish perspective and not a modern English one. 

[dscapp]

Gehenna has a whole lot of context. The hinnom valley I think in hebrew is pronoucnced Ge Hinnom and transliterated into greek as gehenna. Mount moriah is the highest point of the city and at the hinnom valleys lowest point is the lowest point of the city. Mount moriah represents the presence of The Lord, so the lowest point would also have significant representation.in joshua 15 you can read about the border of land for the tribe of judah. In jeremiah 7 you can also read about this valley. In verse 31 it talks about building high places in tophet(means high places probably for sacrifice) which is where the children of Judah (v. 30) sacrificed children by passing them thru the fire to a pagan god molech. Jeremiah predicts this place will become a cemetery, which is very insightful to what Jesus refers to this place as later and the fact that wealthy first century jews used the slopes as tombs.

The word gehenna appears several times in the bible. I am not certian of which scripture you are referring to but generaly this word is in refrence to hell/hades in greek. Therefore to gain understanding and to truely study Gods Word we must examine what ALL scriptures say about hell. Because in your other posts you refer to olam and speak of eternity I want to ask you to please provide scripture refrence to the exact usage you are looking at. And what exaxtly are you trying to find out, is hell eternal or temporary? I need clarification to better assist you. If you are questioning is hell eternal then lets look at mark9. In verse 43 the word gehenna is found, in the next verse itsays where thier worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Worms are like maggots eating rotting flesh, fire thats not quenched is eternal. If I have misunderstood or you need more clarification, please let me know.

 

Hi Cletus. It can get a little confusing I know. I will do my best to simplify it. The best translation to use for hell is Gehenna and the Lake of Fire. Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same place. Hades however is the abode of the dead, the grave where believers and nonbelievers are all dead in their bodies awaiting either the first resurrection or the great white throne judgment. I believe Mark 9:43 is alluding to a picture metaphor that Jesus described in Isa 66:24, mainly because the fire in Jerusalem has burned out. Eternal is also an English translation, what is Hebrew translation for Mark 9:43. Is it olam.

 

But we are not dealing with punctuation.  And punctuation is not arbitrary, but it supplied by context.

 

I'm simply stating how translators can be at fault. Luke 23:43/translator bias. If translators can be at fault with this, then why wouldn't they be at fault with the subject of time.

 

No, it's not the million dollar question if you really believe the Bible and what it says.  It is those who with an ungodly agenda who try to muddy the waters about what passages mean.  My point was that your approach to the text is internally inconsistent.   If eternal only means eternal when you want it to mean that, when it only mistranslated pertaining to Hell, it reveals to me that you are trying to make the text mean what you want it to mean.  You are either adding or taking away from the Word of God by the kind of interpretation you are employing.

 

I understand what you're saying brother, trust me I do. But why is it so difficult to except that when the Bible speaks of eternal hell, it's rather speaking of the description of olam that OneLight posted and eternal life is never-ending. Couldn't it be at least possible. For example, God never gives us authority beyond the finite. In Gen 1:1 it says in the beginning. What came before the beginning.

 

Matt. 25:46 uses the NT Greek equivalent to olam, (aionios) in terms of eternal punishment  and eternal life in Heaven.

 

No it doesn't. Olam is an OT word and is not equivalent to any translation. Olam stands alone in originality.

 

I agree that translations can cloud the our understanding, however, we have to work with what we have. Even the Hebrew that you're speaking of is not the original, it's the Masoretic text. The Greek OT was translated from a proto Masoretic text. Believe me I argue regularly that translator bias has lead to misunderstandings of the English Bible.

 

Good afternoon Butch. I don't understand something then. Why have christians in general been fighting over this hell forever subject for centuries if we can never return to the original text. There's always a loophole to jump over. Why can't christians just agree that we must wait until we meet the Lord face to face and ask him.

 

The English word "Hell" has the idea of a subterranean place where the dead are supposedly alive. This idea is not taught in Scripture, Gehnna, Hades, and Tartarus, are actual places and should not be translated "Hell" buy calling these places "Hell" the translators have imposed the English meaning of "Hell" on these place. Gehenna is the valley of the Son of Hinom an actual location outside of Jerusalem, Hades is the grave, and Tartarus, is reserved for angels.

 

Agreed.

 

As I read through this discussion, I looked into the Hebrew meaning of the word, not the English means, and came across a site called the Ancient Hebrew Research Center. There I found their meaning of olam.

 

In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time.

 

Very good. Also note the difference between the English mind and the Hebrew mind. - ds

[Fez]

 

 

Good afternoon Butch. I don't understand something then. Why have christians in general been fighting over this hell forever subject for centuries if we can never return to the original text. There's always a loophole to jump over. Why can't christians just agree that we must wait until we meet the Lord face to face and ask him.

You are the one discussing the subject brother, you tell me..... 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

Hi Shiloh,

 

It't hard to say how much translator bias affects the Scriptures, but we certainly can see it. This case with Olam and aion is a good example. Because translators see aionions life and believe that the believer will live forever, they translation aionios as eternal. The problem is they also translate things forever that end. The English word eternal means unending, something that ends cannot be eternal. We have the same problem with Olam, There are many instances in the OT where ordinances of the Mosaic law are said to be Olam and our English translators have translated them as forever. The problem is that both Jesus and Paul said that the Mosaic Law came to end. Again, something that ends is not eternal or forever. In the Greek OT Olam is usually translated with "aionion" which is claimed to mean forever, yet is used of things that end. The word cannot have to opposing meanings, I submit that the word Olam and aion cannot mean eternal even those many define it that way.

 

Hebrew is a very nuanced language and it doesn't come off very well in English.  English is far more limited and is not as precise as Hebrew.

 

So yes, the English translators do translate olam as "forever" with things that actually do have an end.   It is not because of a bias, though.  It is because of the limitations of the English language when it comes to how it translates Hebrew.

 

Context is the key to deciphering how the word olam is to be understood.   There are times when olam should be understood in a more limited sense and there are times when it should be understood to mean "forever" as we, English speakers intuitively understand that word.

 

I agree context is key to understanding any word, however, context cannot always be used to understand a word.

Actually context is always how we understand a word.  

 

Suppose we had a word "xye" and that word had two definitions, yes and no. Now suppose I ask someone will you go to the store and they reply "xye". I have no idea if they will go or not. Likewise with aionios, if means eternal and not eternal and someone asks do you want aionios lifewhat do you answer? Are they asking do you want eternal life or not eternal life? This is where I see the problem with defining olam or aionios as eternal.

 

Your analogy doesn't really speak to the issue.  A more accurate analogy is the word love.  The word love can be understood differently depending on the context.   If we are talking about food and I say that I love ice cream, you would not understand that word "love"  the same way if we were talking about our families and I said that I love my wife.   You would naturally adjust your understanding of love to fit the context.  Context is always king in biblical interpretation.

 

Aionios has different meanings based on context.  Word usage is more important than word definitions.  Words are often used and applied in ways that don't always stay with the strict dictionary/lexical definition of the word.

 

 

 

 

 

The way I define aion is an age. An age by definition is an undefined period of time. It could be 100 years, 1000 years, or it may never end.

 

Yes, but that only ONE way to understand the word.  Some places translate that word as "world(s)  It translated eternal and "forever" in other places, as well.  It also has another usage in a negative sense, for example Jesus said to the woman at the well that anyone who drinks of the water He gives them will "never (aionos) thirst again.  You can just pick one usage and make that working definition for the word whenever it suits you.

 

So, aionios could be used of a period of time that is eternal but yet not by definition mean eternal. I look at aionios as the flip side of the English word "a while". One may I'll be there in a while, this could be 10 or an hour. A while is just a term for a short period of time yet the duration is not set by the definition.

 

You're approach to the word is too one dimensional and doesn't reflect the nuances of Koine Greek.  The concept of "a while" doesn't reflect how aianos is used in Scripture.

[dscapp]

 

 

 

Good afternoon Butch. I don't understand something then. Why have christians in general been fighting over this hell forever subject for centuries if we can never return to the original text. There's always a loophole to jump over. Why can't christians just agree that we must wait until we meet the Lord face to face and ask him.

You are the one discussing the subject brother, you tell me..... 

 

 

Ego's and belief systems.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

 

Good afternoon Butch. I don't understand something then. Why have christians in general been fighting over this hell forever subject for centuries if we can never return to the original text. There's always a loophole to jump over. Why can't christians just agree that we must wait until we meet the Lord face to face and ask him.

You are the one discussing the subject brother, you tell me..... 

 

 

Ego's and belief systems.

 

The Bible is not ambiguous at all about the eternality of hell.  It isn't a mystery.  

[Butch5]

 

Gehenna has a whole lot of context. The hinnom valley I think in hebrew is pronoucnced Ge Hinnom and transliterated into greek as gehenna. Mount moriah is the highest point of the city and at the hinnom valleys lowest point is the lowest point of the city. Mount moriah represents the presence of The Lord, so the lowest point would also have significant representation.in joshua 15 you can read about the border of land for the tribe of judah. In jeremiah 7 you can also read about this valley. In verse 31 it talks about building high places in tophet(means high places probably for sacrifice) which is where the children of Judah (v. 30) sacrificed children by passing them thru the fire to a pagan god molech. Jeremiah predicts this place will become a cemetery, which is very insightful to what Jesus refers to this place as later and the fact that wealthy first century jews used the slopes as tombs.

The word gehenna appears several times in the bible. I am not certian of which scripture you are referring to but generaly this word is in refrence to hell/hades in greek. Therefore to gain understanding and to truely study Gods Word we must examine what ALL scriptures say about hell. Because in your other posts you refer to olam and speak of eternity I want to ask you to please provide scripture refrence to the exact usage you are looking at. And what exaxtly are you trying to find out, is hell eternal or temporary? I need clarification to better assist you. If you are questioning is hell eternal then lets look at mark9. In verse 43 the word gehenna is found, in the next verse itsays where thier worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Worms are like maggots eating rotting flesh, fire thats not quenched is eternal. If I have misunderstood or you need more clarification, please let me know.

 

Hi Cletus. It can get a little confusing I know. I will do my best to simplify it. The best translation to use for hell is Gehenna and the Lake of Fire. Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same place. Hades however is the abode of the dead, the grave where believers and nonbelievers are all dead in their bodies awaiting either the first resurrection or the great white throne judgment. I believe Mark 9:43 is alluding to a picture metaphor that Jesus described in Isa 66:24, mainly because the fire in Jerusalem has burned out. Eternal is also an English translation, what is Hebrew translation for Mark 9:43. Is it olam.

 

But we are not dealing with punctuation.  And punctuation is not arbitrary, but it supplied by context.

 

I'm simply stating how translators can be at fault. Luke 23:43/translator bias. If translators can be at fault with this, then why wouldn't they be at fault with the subject of time.

 

No, it's not the million dollar question if you really believe the Bible and what it says.  It is those who with an ungodly agenda who try to muddy the waters about what passages mean.  My point was that your approach to the text is internally inconsistent.   If eternal only means eternal when you want it to mean that, when it only mistranslated pertaining to Hell, it reveals to me that you are trying to make the text mean what you want it to mean.  You are either adding or taking away from the Word of God by the kind of interpretation you are employing.

 

I understand what you're saying brother, trust me I do. But why is it so difficult to except that when the Bible speaks of eternal hell, it's rather speaking of the description of olam that OneLight posted and eternal life is never-ending. Couldn't it be at least possible. For example, God never gives us authority beyond the finite. In Gen 1:1 it says in the beginning. What came before the beginning.

 

Matt. 25:46 uses the NT Greek equivalent to olam, (aionios) in terms of eternal punishment  and eternal life in Heaven.

 

No it doesn't. Olam is an OT word and is not equivalent to any translation. Olam stands alone in originality.

 

I agree that translations can cloud the our understanding, however, we have to work with what we have. Even the Hebrew that you're speaking of is not the original, it's the Masoretic text. The Greek OT was translated from a proto Masoretic text. Believe me I argue regularly that translator bias has lead to misunderstandings of the English Bible.

 

Good afternoon Butch. I don't understand something then. Why have christians in general been fighting over this hell forever subject for centuries if we can never return to the original text. There's always a loophole to jump over. Why can't christians just agree that we must wait until we meet the Lord face to face and ask him.

 

The English word "Hell" has the idea of a subterranean place where the dead are supposedly alive. This idea is not taught in Scripture, Gehnna, Hades, and Tartarus, are actual places and should not be translated "Hell" buy calling these places "Hell" the translators have imposed the English meaning of "Hell" on these place. Gehenna is the valley of the Son of Hinom an actual location outside of Jerusalem, Hades is the grave, and Tartarus, is reserved for angels.

 

Agreed.

 

As I read through this discussion, I looked into the Hebrew meaning of the word, not the English means, and came across a site called the Ancient Hebrew Research Center. There I found their meaning of olam.

 

In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time.

 

Very good. Also note the difference between the English mind and the Hebrew mind. - ds

 

I think the reason there is so much confusion is simply that many don't put forth the effort to study it. I know lots of Christians who don't pick up their Bible between Sundays. Also, and probably more importantly is that there has been so much error brought into the church that many simply don't have the time to weed through all of the error and do all of the research that is needed to find what is actually the truth and what is error. When I began to study the Ante-Nicene church I was surprised to find that much of what is taught today they new nothing about. Sometimes I say it almost looks like a different religion that we have today than what was originally taught. 

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

 

Good afternoon Butch. I don't understand something then. Why have christians in general been fighting over this hell forever subject for centuries if we can never return to the original text. There's always a loophole to jump over. Why can't christians just agree that we must wait until we meet the Lord face to face and ask him.

You are the one discussing the subject brother, you tell me..... 

 

 

Ego's and belief systems.

 

The Bible is not ambiguous at all about the eternality of hell.  It isn't a mystery.  

 

When you say Hell, do you mean Gehenna?