What is the purpose of the judgement in Revelation 20?

[iamlamad]

What??? What difference will it make if one is raptured before the trib (as you believe) or one loses their head during the trib, neither of the two will be here witnessing to the lost world. I say again, why are you so afraid to die?

Why are you so afraid of a pretrib rapture? God is pretrib - you should be too.

 

LAMAD

[ENOCH2010]

I'm not afraid of the rapture, when it happens, I'm outa here. I'm also prepared for it to be post trib.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Lamad,

 

Now that was a good try re: local troubles & people fearing then going on with normal life. However the 6th seal is anything but a local event.

 

`the sun became black....the stars of the sky fell to the earth....& the sky was split....& every mountain & island were moved out of their places.....` (Rev. 6: 12 - 14)

 

So are you saying that after all the big ceremony of Rev. 5 with the Lord receiving the scroll from the Father , that all it meant was a few months into the tribulation? I think not. The scroll is the title deeds of the earth & contain the judgments of the Father about to be executed by the Son.

 

And I fear we have ventured far from the topic. Yet it all leads to the final judgment of Rev. 20.

[Salty]

 

Finally, I'm glad that someone understands what I'm talking about from God's Word.

 

That's what Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Thess.5 when he said we are not appointed to God's wrath. It does not contain any... words or phrases about being raptured in order for that to be true. Others instead have added an idea of physical escape to that Scripture.

 

Of course, anyone can make the bible fit their theory if they pull a verse out of context. The CONTEXT of 1 thes. 5 is the rapture! So when Paul tells us God will not set an appointment with His wrath, we escape His wrath by being snatched out of the world before His wrath.

 

Nothing covered in the 1 Thess.5 chapter of the events of Christ gathering His saints. The gathering event instead Paul gave in the previous 1 Thess.4 chapter.

 

What Paul was giving us in the 1 Thess.5 chapter was the timing of the 1 Thess.4 events of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. Paul was covering 'day of The Lord' event/timing in the 1 Thess.5 chapter.

 

But what the Pre-trib Rapture school has done with 1 Thess.5, is ADD the idea of escape prior to the tribulation, just because Paul made the statement that we are not appointed to God's wrath.

 

Paul's actual meaning there is that when the 'day of The Lord' comes, we are not appointed to God's cup of wrath that will be poured out upon the wicked on earth on that specific Day. That's why Apostle Paul said there when 'they' shall say, "Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them", not us of Christ's Church.

 

1 Thess.5

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

³ For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

 

 

What "day"? That "day of the Lord".

 

That is the Day of Christ's coming to gather His Church. Apostle Paul also taught about that Day in 2 Thess.2 with the KJV phrase "day of Christ". The OT prophets covered the events on that Day also, as it will end this present world time, the dragon's reign on earth, and thus the tribulation.

 

Who is Paul pointing to with that idea of their being like a woman travailing with child? Not Christ's Faithful, but instead the deceived, i.e., those in darkness that sleep in the night who will be thinking that "Peace and safety".

[iamlamad]

 

 

Finally, I'm glad that someone understands what I'm talking about from God's Word.

 

That's what Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Thess.5 when he said we are not appointed to God's wrath. It does not contain any... words or phrases about being raptured in order for that to be true. Others instead have added an idea of physical escape to that Scripture.

 

Of course, anyone can make the bible fit their theory if they pull a verse out of context. The CONTEXT of 1 thes. 5 is the rapture! So when Paul tells us God will not set an appointment with His wrath, we escape His wrath by being snatched out of the world before His wrath.

 

Nothing covered in the 1 Thess.5 chapter of the events of Christ gathering His saints. The gathering event instead Paul gave in the previous 1 Thess.4 chapter.

 

What Paul was giving us in the 1 Thess.5 chapter was the timing of the 1 Thess.4 events of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. Paul was covering 'day of The Lord' event/timing in the 1 Thess.5 chapter.

 

But what the Pre-trib Rapture school has done with 1 Thess.5, is ADD the idea of escape prior to the tribulation, just because Paul made the statement that we are not appointed to God's wrath.

 

Paul's actual meaning there is that when the 'day of The Lord' comes, we are not appointed to God's cup of wrath that will be poured out upon the wicked on earth on that specific Day. That's why Apostle Paul said there when 'they' shall say, "Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them", not us of Christ's Church.

 

1 Thess.5

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

³ For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

 

 

What "day"? That "day of the Lord".

 

That is the Day of Christ's coming to gather His Church. Apostle Paul also taught about that Day in 2 Thess.2 with the KJV phrase "day of Christ". The OT prophets covered the events on that Day also, as it will end this present world time, the dragon's reign on earth, and thus the tribulation.

 

Who is Paul pointing to with that idea of their being like a woman travailing with child? Not Christ's Faithful, but instead the deceived, i.e., those in darkness that sleep in the night who will be thinking that "Peace and safety".

 

IN fact, I agree with you here: "That is the Day of Christ's coming to gather His Church."  However, you see this day FAR differently that Paul did. Paul wrote of the day of His coming FOR His bride LONG (over 7 years) before His coming WITH His bride, for the battle of Armageddon.

 

Some try to make the Day of Christ as different from the Day of the Lord. to me, Christ IS LORD, so it means the same.

 

AGain you are mistaken, for Paul never left the subject of the rapture in chapter 5. Rather, he shows us the TIMING of the rapture.

 

Let's run though this again. One time you will get it!

 

Paul's sudden event IS THE RAPTURE. It will come suddenly upon the word as a thief in the night, for that is the way HIS COMING for the rapture will be. AT this sudden event, the saints are caught up into the air, and so shall they ever be with the Lord,  while those not "in Christ" - the sinners - get Paul's sudden destruction: a huge, world-wide earthquake which will be the start of the Day of the Lord. (the very same earthquake we see at the 6th seal.) Paul writes that those caught up (salvation) get to "live together with Him." This is speaking of the rapture, or the being caught up. THAT is when we get to "live together with Him."

 

LAMAD

 

But what the Pre-trib Rapture school has done with 1 Thess.5, is ADD the idea of escape prior to the tribulation, just because Paul made the statement that we are not appointed to God's wrath.

 

No, that was Paul Himself that gave us that idea. The rapture and the sudden destruction come almost at the same moment in time. The "rapture"  is two events so close together they seem as ONE: the dead in Christ rising, then those alive rising. then TOGETHER caught up into the air to be with Jesus. The Sudden Destruction will come a instant later, caused by the dead in Christ rising and creating an earthquake. This earthquake will be the START of the Day of the Lord, starting over 7 years before the battle of Armageddon.

 

Get this picture: BECAUSE we are not appointed to God's wrath (the sudden destruction) we get "salvation" (raptured) and get to "live together with Him." Pretrib thought added nothing here: there was no need, Paul has proved the rapture to be pretrib.

 

Paul's actual meaning there is that when the 'day of The Lord' comes, we are not appointed to God's cup of wrath that will be poured out upon the wicked on earth on that specific Day. That's why Apostle Paul said there when 'they' shall say, "Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them", not us of Christ's Church.

 

NO! The sudden destruction comes on THEM only because the righteous are caught up! The earthquake is coming and will be WORLD WIDE. Paul said there will be no escaping it for the wicked. The righteous escape for they are caught up. Paul wrote "salvation" [rapture] and "get to live together with Him." That is RAPTURE talk!

 

You seem to imagine that the Day of the Lord is one 24 hour period. You are very mistaken: the day of the Lord will be the 7 years of the 70th week and will continue on into the Millennial reign of Christ.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

Hi Lamad,

 

Now that was a good try re: local troubles & people fearing then going on with normal life. However the 6th seal is anything but a local event.

 

`the sun became black....the stars of the sky fell to the earth....& the sky was split....& every mountain & island were moved out of their places.....` (Rev. 6: 12 - 14)

 

So are you saying that after all the big ceremony of Rev. 5 with the Lord receiving the scroll from the Father , that all it meant was a few months into the tribulation? I think not. The scroll is the title deeds of the earth & contain the judgments of the Father about to be executed by the Son.

 

And I fear we have ventured far from the topic. Yet it all leads to the final judgment of Rev. 20.

Most people read right over chapters 4 and 5 and don't understand these two chapters are the context for the first seals.What did it mean for someone to be found worthy to break the seals? It means EVERYTHING. If no one was ever found, Satan would remain the god of this world forever. THANK GOD Jesus was found worthy! Again, most don't understand that the rest of the book is what is INSIDE the rolled up scroll. If the seals don't get broken, then no trumpet can be sounded, and so the 7th trumpet will not sound, where the kingdoms of the world are taken away from Satan and given to our Lord. I guess then we agree that NO TRUMPET can be sounded until all seven seals are broken?

 

LAMAD

[Stormcrow]

 

There is an idea in Scripture that some will fare worse than others when it comes to Hell........

 

Matthew 10

²⁴ Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

 

Matthew 18

⁶ but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

 

I can see something in this.

This suggests that a person's works will decide how severe their punishment is.

 

 

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.  "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;  and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.  "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.  'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;  naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'  "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?  'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?  'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'  "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'  "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;  for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;  I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'  "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'  "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'  "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:31-46 (NASB)

 

The judgment in Revelation 20 is the same judgment Jesus spoke of in Matthew 25.  The "deeds" for which they would be judged has to do with the manner in which people treated His messengers, the least of whom - according to the apostle himself - was Paul.

 

Now, here's a little "connect the dots" game.  See if you can find the common thread in these two passages (one from the NT, one from the OT):

 

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,  and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'  "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.  "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.  "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?  

 

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,  so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.  "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.  "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.  "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:29-38 (NASB)

 

Now, see if you can find the common thread with this passage in the next, especially as it relates to judgment:

 

The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place;  but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.  Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand.  All the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon.  Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles. 2 Chronicles 36:15-19 (NASB)

 

Now, if you can come to understand how these two passages relate to one another, you can begin to understand the Olivet Discourse, and, in understanding that, you can begin to understand Revelation. 

[Stormcrow]

the stars of the sky fell to the earth

 

Am I correct in assuming you take this literally?

 

If so, just how many these massive fusion reactors in space called "stars" can fit on this planet? And if you answered "none" (which, by the way, is the correct answer), then it might be time to re-evaluate the manner in which passages like these are viewed.  That is to say, they cannot be taken literally. 

[Guest]

the stars of the sky fell to the earth

 

Am I correct in assuming you take this literally?

 

If so, just how many these massive fusion reactors in space called "stars" can fit on this planet? And if you answered "none" (which, by the way, is the correct answer), then it might be time to re-evaluate the manner in which passages like these are viewed.  That is to say, they cannot be taken literally. 

 

~

 

How Many Of These "Stars" Can Fit On This Planet?

 

Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Revelation 12:7-9 (ESV)

 

Beloved, Maybe It Is Time To Re-Evaluate The Unwise Application Of "Science"

 

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 1 Timothy 6:20

 

To The Holy Words Of God?

 

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

 

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26

[Stormcrow]

Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Revelation 12:7-9 (ESV)

 

Beloved, Maybe It Is Time To Re-Evaluate The Unwise Application Of "Science"

 

I don't really see how this refutes what I wrote about not taking "stars falling to earth" literally.