iamlamad Posted September 30, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.09 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2014 So WHO in Paul's mind is the restrainer? He said "now we know." Of course it is the Holy Spirit working through the CHURCH that is restraining the lawless one, and preventing his revealing until the right time. At that right time the church will be raptured and THEN the man of sin will be revealed. LAMAD "And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way." 2 Thess 2:6,7 The restrainer being the church really doesn't make that much sense. More likely, what's doing the restraining is the abyss. And what's being restrained is the evil angel that comes up out of the abyss per Rev 17. The false prophet (man of sin) is empowered by this fallen angel so he can't be revealed until this evil angel is released from the restraint of the abyss that is restraining him with restraints. *Redundancy added for emphasis. We know that the abyss is a prison, a place of restraint for fallen angels per Rev 20. There is an angel that has a key to the abyss. Granted, we're not given a lot of details about the hierarchy or roles and responsibilities of angels but its a reasonable assumption that this angel with the key is the one that is taken out of the way so that this fallen angel is released from the abyss so that the man of sin is subsequently revealed. How can something that you have been given power over be a hindrance to you? The false prophet has been given power over the saints. The saints are "given into his hand" and "he makes war with the saints and overcomes them". Doesn't sound like much of a restraining influence to me. Per Rev 7..."A great multitude which no one could count"..."These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation". The great tribulation is clearly a time of persecution tied to the abomination of desolation per Jesus in Matthew 24. If the church is raptured before the revealing of the false prophet and subsequent abomination of desolation, who makes up the great multitude that no one could count? There is zero support for some "great revival". On the contrary..."For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." Not very fertile ground for a revival I don't think, much less a great multitude beyond number. That's why I don't see the church as being the restrainer. Why would you think that its the church? Why would the church have to be gone first? If the church is raptured before the revealing of the false prophet and subsequent abomination of desolation, who makes up the great multitude that no one could count? Sorry, the "great tribulation" as written in Rev chapter 7 is not the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of, caused by the man of sin turned Beast and the false prophet. You see, John has not yet even started the 70th week yet, much less arrived at the midpoint when Satan is cast down and the man of sin turns to Beast and goes after the woman, and the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of begins. So what is John talking about in Rev. 7? Just your ordinary great tribulation that comes frequently to earth. For example, the Holocaust was certainly "great tribulation" for the Jews. what John is telling us is that at the time of the pretrib rapture, people will be being murdered for their testimony around the planet. It has been that way in half the world for some time now, and it has moved to the US. The great crowd, too large to number is the raptured church seen in heaven. The antichrist beast has NOT been given power over the saints yet. That power or authority to overcome the saints begins at the midpoint of the week. The rapture will come BEFORE the week begins. He will NEVER HAVE POWER OR AUTHORITY over the bride of Christ, for they will be removed from the earth before the man of sin is revealed. What exactly does that mean, "revealed?" It is my guess that few will know when the covenant with many is confirmed. It will be done behind closed doors, so people will not know who the beast is until the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God. I am convinced that is his "revealing." This is before anyone has come up from the abyss except what we read at the 5th trumpet judgment. The man of sin is alive and well today, but no one knows who he is - yet. God is truly the one preventing the man of sin from being revealed - as John wrote, before his time. God is doing this through His church, the one who will be "taken out of the way." Remember, the THEME of 2 thes.2 is the rapture, not something about some angel who has a key. It seems many attach a meaning to the 2 Thes. 2 passage that does not include the gathering, even when Paul states that that is his theme. When we let the CONTEXT tell us what Paul meant by "apostasia" we know he is talking about the bride of Christ being "departed" or taken out of the way. Of course, if someone does not believe in the pretrib rapture, they will have to find another thing or another one who is "taken out of the way." When we compare Paul (1 Thes.) and John in Revelation and see that the pretrib rapture comes just before the 6th seal, then it makes perfect sense. The man of sin will be FREE to take out three kings and begin his plan for the temple in Jerusalem. By the way, the man of sin will not need any demonic help to declare that he is God and should be worshipped: he does this on his own. but because he does it, he will open himself up for possession. There WILL BE a great revival, but just before the pretrib rapture. I suspect this great revival will begin very soon, for I see the rapture coming very soon - like in this year or the next. LAMAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted September 30, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.09 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2014 Rev 20 is satan being bound and put into the abyss. Today, he's free to roam, as the god of this earth (2 Cor 4:4). He doesn't need further loosening! [1Pe 5:8 KJV] Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: The restrainer of 2 Thes 2 isn't the church. The restrainer is the Holy Spirit, but in His role as indwelling the church. The church is the vessel through which the Holy Spirit restrains evil in this world. Because of Jesus' promise in John 14, the restrainer can't leave, unless the church is removed as well. We almost define "church" by the Acts 2/pentecost indwelling of the Spirit- the spirit and the church are inseparably linked: [Jhn 14:16-18 KJV] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Jesus promised Peter that the gates of hell would not prevail over the church. In Revelation, we see "saints" being overcome. Therefore the saints of Revelation are not the church. I agree 100 percent. The true restrainer is GOD the Holy Spirit, working through the church of Jesus Christ, the body of Christ on the earth. LAMAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted September 30, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.09 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2014 Blessings Everyone Even if the message is good it is spoiled by the absence of patience,love,kindness,compassion,,,,,,plus,there is not one individual here that does not see dimly & in part.....it is from Jesus own Words To add to that...each tree is known by its fruit. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:22,23 And we are to speak the truth in love. "Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 People don't come to an understanding of the truth or the things to come from works of the flesh. Flesh and blood does not reveal God's truth to us. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." John 16:13 It is the function of the Holy Spirit to lead us into truth. If you believe the Holy Spirit has given you something to share, share it in love (see definition above). You've done your part, let the Holy Spirit do His. God's word will not return void. Like kwikphilly said...don't let the taint of the flesh spoil the message you're sharing. If you can't share it in love and then leave it to the Holy Spirit to do His job, perhaps an examination of motive is in order. Wow! That is very well written! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted September 30, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.09 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2014 "Day of Christ" is not the same as the "Day of the Lord". "Day of Christ" occurs a handful of places in Paul's writings, and is the day the believer sees Christ, either by dying or rapture, but always with a note of anticipation, something for the believer to look forward to: [1Co 1:8 NKJV] who will also confirm you to the end, [that you may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. [Phl 1:6 NKJV] being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [it] until the day of Jesus Christ; [Phl 1:10 NKJV] that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ, [Phl 2:16 NKJV] holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. The passage in 2 Thes 2:2 is correctly rendered "Day of the Lord" as in the critical texts in this case- one of the few places that the KJV has it wrong. The Day of the Lord is characterized by dread and destruction, judgment and darkness, and several times is rendered "the great and terrible Day of the Lord". So in 2 Thes 2 the Day of the Lord, the OT's yowm Jehovah, is what comes after the apostasy, after the man of sin is revealed. There is nothing in the passage to refute a pretrib rapture. Also, it's helpful to understand that in many passages the "Day of the Lord" can refer to a period of time and not necessarily a single Day. In some cases it seems to apply to the entire wrath portion of Revelation, rather than the climactic last day. You make a good argument. Even though Christ IS Lord, the day of Christ seems different than the day of the Lord. Would you think it would be the day He comes FOR His bride, or the day He comes WITH His bride? LAMAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persuaded Posted September 30, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 249 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 107 Days Won: 2 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2014 I'd say the Day of Christ comes first, and for the church. It is the church rapture, for those alive on the earth. It is how the church, and the special relationship of the indwelling Spirit, is removed. Which isn't to say the Spirit won't be active on the earth afterward. Many will come to believe during the trib, and that can't happen without the Spirit. But like king Saul, the presence of the Spirit will be conditional, not "promised forever" as now, for the church. And to be clear, for those that hold different views, I don't see this use of "Day of Christ" as some kind of pretrib proof; rather, it's just another example of scripture seeming to go out of its way to allow a pretrib view. It seems to best explain why Paul, an OT scholar, would substitute "Christ" into the well known "Day of the Lord" phrase. He seems to have deliberately coined a new phrase, and if that is true then I'm confident Paul had a good reason to diverge from the words of the OT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giantbear7 Posted October 2, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 19 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) Just a question isn't the millions of departed faithful who had waited for the Lord also the bride. Why would the minority that represent the bride towards the end be considered differently than those who have already departed? Where is the priority as far as the resurrection of the dead is concerned? Edited October 2, 2014 by Giantbear7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7thseal Posted October 18, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 825 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 186 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2014 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. Why are they being judged according to their deeds? What is the purpose of this? I can't make sense of it. God is justice... His word compared to their lives. Jesus is the word made flesh. Justice always allows a defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel 11:36 Posted October 19, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,957 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 295 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 19, 2014 Response to the OP: The judgment of the second death is to condemn all of the unbelieving spirits of humanity from the beginning of creation None of these will be found in the Lord's book of life No one can be saved by their works All of the same will be sent to the Lord's lake of fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 It's Jesus And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. John 12:47 Or The Books He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:48 ~ Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. Revelation 20:11-12 (NIV) Why are they being judged according to their deeds? What is the purpose of this? I can't make sense of it. If Jesus Is Indeed The Only Savior For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Romans 3:23-27 It Makes Perfect For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 Sense I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8 Yes? Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:18-21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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