A Very Tough Question. Please Think Before Answering

[Guest]

At the risk of derailing this thread, perhaps you shoud do a search on the topic Once Saved Always Saved or even Eternal Security. But that is not what this thread is about so have at it.

[other one]

At the risk of derailing this thread, perhaps you shoud do a search on the topic Once Saved Always Saved or even Eternal Security. But that is not what this thread is about so have at it.

I can save you all about three to four hundred posts and just say that it all boils down to whether or not a person was really saved in the first place and since that is another 500 post thread, we'd need to then decide exactly what has to happen to be "really saved"

So unless you want this thread to be side tracked for about a thousand posts, I'd just forget about it.

[Macs Son]

Here in the West this is still hypothetical. It may not be hypothetical much longer. But for Christians in the Mid East, Africa, Europe, Asia or the UK, it's real.

 

We know from the Bible some of us will die for God. Especially in the end times.

 

I think we will be going to war against Isis in a few months, or less. Now suppose you are a Christian but somehow Isis has captured you. Or it might be a situation where they have you and your family. At some point they tell you that unless you convert to their brand of Islam, you will be killed. (please keep in mind the way terrorists practice Islam is not the same as the the other 2/3 of Muslims practice it. To lump all Muslims together is the same as saying the JW's or LDS forms of Christianity is the same as most of us. And it's not)

I've been thinking about this for several weeks. My impulse is to say no and let them kill me. And for me, a 62 yr old man in very poor health without a family that's probably the right answer.

However, if you lie, say you will convert, but in your heart you didn't, you may then get a chance to save your family, escape, or at least wait until you can get a weapon and take as many of them with you as you can. That's what I would have done if I was young and my health was decent, so I could fire an Ak-47, an Uzi, or even a good shot gun. If you happen to be a captured soldier, or pilot, then this is certainly what you should do. As far as I'm concerned this is war, even if Obama never says it. Remember, you're lying, when and if you escape you're still going to practice Christianity.

 

Thoughts?

That's a very good question that you pose and one every Christian should consider. It is easy to sit here while we are all safe and sound and tell everyone we'd do the right thing. Surely many men who have been burned at the stake first denied their faith and later, probably after much prayer, recanted and affirmed their readiness to die for it. Of course we all know the right thing to do here but hypothetical bravado is not the same as experientially being ready to meet your end as well as those you love most in this world, even if we think we will. I believe it is a mistake to rely on our own courage when we are given choices that mean peril for our families and us but I also believe that in those time we need to rest even more fully upon the Lord in order to either deliver us or take us home. I do know that if we do this He will supply all the courage we need to meet any test. So I fully trust in the Lord's Word on this and in my spirit know the right decision. However, I also know the flesh is weak and that I would need to be fully dependent on God for the courage I would need to face my trials and bless the Lord's Name in that trial. I think of Sayeed in Iran that is even doing this now and I'm sure its in the power of Christ that he has come this far. So we have ample evidence of God's faithfulness to those faithful to His Name.

The answer appears to be crystal clear as to what we should do

Daniel 3:14-18

Nebuchadnezzar spoke, saying to them, "Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the gold image which I have set up? Now if you are ready at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, and you fall down and worship the image which I have made, good! But if you do not worship, you shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace. And who is the god who will deliver you from my hands?"

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego answered and said to the king,

"O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. If that is the case, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hand, O king. But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up."

And the answer is also crystal clear as to what we should not do as well when put to the test

Matthew 10:33

“But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

Luke 14:28-30 “For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it— lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'

This then is what Jesus instructed us to do when tested with the threat of death and torture.

Luke 12:11 “Now when they bring you to the synagogues and magistrates and authorities, do not worry about how or what you should answer, or what you should say.

Luke 12:22 Then He said to His disciples, “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; nor about the body, what you will put on.

In Christ, Pat

[alphaparticle]

I don't think if you make a verbal denial of Jesus, and then are beheaded, that that would send you to hell. If you make a public denial merely out of fear of pain, torture, death, etc., that isn't a denial in the sense of actual inner rejection. For instance, Peter denied Christ, it seems clear though he didn't really mean it. He was afraid.

[Massorite]

Since I was last on this site I have read the Quran, studied the Quran, studied Islam and the life of Muhammad, researched the history of Islam and its rituals and lastly I have written a book about Islam using 17 different English translations of the Quran which is not yet published.

This whole idea that there are good and peace loving Muslims is scam. Because any Muslim who claims to be a peace loving Muslim is a bad Muslim who does not follow the teachings and precepts the Quran and the Hadith. According to the Quran, anybody who is not a "believer" is worthy of nothing except death and that means all of the rest of the world who are not Muslims.

ISIS is just as evil as any other Muslim is. The Quran says that Muslims are not supposed to kill other Muslims and ISIS, the Taliban, Al Qaida, all Sunni's, all Shia and all other Islamic brands world wide are guilty of killing their own. In the Quran and the Hadiths it is lawful to lie, cheat, steal from, torture in an effort to convert and to kill as long as it is in the interest of spreading Islam.

Muhammad made peace treaties with Jewish settlements in and around Mecca only to break those treaties at will and slaughter hundreds of men and boys. The women and girls he took and gave to his men or sold them as slaves just like ISIS is doing today. The Caliphate that ISIS is trying to create is the same kind of Theocracy created by Muhammad's successors. 

ISIS is following the rules, but they are rules that only Muslims know about because many of them come from the Hadiths and not the Quran.

The world and Christians know so little about Islam which is why (with the help of God) I was inspired to study and write a book for two reasons. First because I have a heart for Muslims and second to inform Christians what we are truly up against. Muslims are very touchy and get insulted and angry at the very first mention Jesus as being the son of God who died for them. Yet the Quran gives Jesus credit for being a sinless man, raising the dead, healing the sick, born of a virgin, and creating a bird out of mud, blowing on the bird, which made the bird come to life and fly away. Even though Muslims are taught that Jesus is nothing more then a common man the Quran gives Him the same powers it gives Allah. My book is an effort to plant tiny seeds of doubt into the mind of the Muslim about their own word. The Quran.

As for your question. There is no way that I could deny Christ for any reason or under any persecution because I know better. God has blessed me with visions and I once saw His brightest whitest light that out shined every other light in that church, so much so the all I could see was a deep dark black silhouette of the people in the church.

I saw part of the last beheading and they didn't do it with a big knife. They used something just a little bigger then a steak knife so they had to saw that reporters head off. When he started screaming I couldn't take it anymore and turned off the video.

I prayed to God that I would be able to endure such a thing in complete silence.

Blessings to all.  

[other one]

It is legal and mandatory to kill apostate Muslims......   like those who refuse to serve Jihad.  They are worse than Infidels.

[Macs Son]

I don't think if you make a verbal denial of Jesus, and then are beheaded, that that would send you to hell. If you make a public denial merely out of fear of pain, torture, death, etc., that isn't a denial in the sense of actual inner rejection. For instance, Peter denied Christ, it seems clear though he didn't really mean it. He was afraid.

Hi AP

An interesting juxtaposition on Peter. I don't think denying the Lord is the unpardonable sin either but certainly what the Lord stated is true so I do believe the act of denying Him is sin and does result in broken fellowship with both Christ and the Father.

“But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

If we study the case of Peter further we can see this was a very serious matter between the Lord and Peter and we have much to learn by it since it is in all 4 Gospels

Point #1: Peter in his own strength stated he would never forsake the Lord and was ready to die for Him and with Him. In my own heart I envision I could do this too but when confronted by the reality of the situation we need the Lord's strength more than ever and our bravado may fail us so we should not rely on it.

Luke 22:31-34

And the Lord said,"Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren."

But he said to Him, "Lord, I am ready to go with You, both to prison and to death."

Then He said, "I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me."

Point #2

Please note that the Lord said, "when you have returned to Me". The implication here is one of broken fellowship between them but Jesus Himself prayed for Peter that his faith would not fail and tells him he will return to Him. Peter was given the time to repent of his actions and he publically confessed his sin, documenting it for all time - as it is in all 4 Gospels that we may learn from it. This was a horrible experience for Peter and when he saw the Lord looking right at him in his denial it had to be hurtful. We may not be able to feel the depth of that pain but maybe some of us had experiences of our spouse denying the wedding vows that bind husband and wife, or a family member that denies you as a member of the family, or even friends that after you came to Christ and confessed Him which no longer considered your long friendship. Make no mistake this ranks right up there with sins that maim like a knife to the heart.

Luke 22:60-62

But Peter said, "Man, I do not know what you are saying!" Immediately, while he was still speaking, the rooster crowed. And the Lord turned and looked at Peter. Then Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how He had said to him, "Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times." So Peter went out and wept bitterly.

Point #3

This sin was not winked at as no big deal. It was a terribly big deal! We must remember the Lord's instruction to Peter after the resurrection.

John 21:15-9

So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?"

He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Feed My lambs."

He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?"

He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Tend My sheep."

He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?"

Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You."

Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep. Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish."

This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God.

And when He had spoken this, He said to him, "Follow Me."

In Christ, Pat

Edited August 31, 2014 by Macs Son

[Massorite]

Not according to the Quran. The Repentance-9:91- Those who are infirm, who have no money or resources, who are ill and can not do Jihad, are exempt.

 

The Repentance 9;95 For those who could do Jihad but do not? They are to be left alone because their punishment will come on Judgment day.

 

As for apostate Muslims? You are correct, they are to be killed where ever they are found.

[other one]

Point #3

This sin was not winked at as no big deal. It was a terribly big deal! We must remember the Lord's instruction to Peter after the resurrection.

John 21:15-9

So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?"

He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Feed My lambs."

He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?"

He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Tend My sheep."

He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?"

Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You."

Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep. Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish."

This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God.

And when He had spoken this, He said to him, "Follow Me."

In Christ, Pat

 

If you look at the conversation between Peter and Jesus where he is asking him if he loves him in Greek, it is even more distressing.....    Jesus was asking him if he loved him as God loves us.  Peters reply is a different word meaning more of a good friend and not the depth of love God has expressed toward us....

Actually the last time Jesus asked he asked with that other word paraphrasing "are you really even my friend."   It wasn't that Jesus was badgering him with the same question over and over, the last time he asked him a really different question.

 

"Peter,    are you even my friend?"     And we have to remember that a very short time earlier that Peter had publically stated that he didn't even know him.  It had to have hurt him deeply.

[Macs Son]

Point #3

This sin was not winked at as no big deal. It was a terribly big deal! We must remember the Lord's instruction to Peter after the resurrection.

John 21:15-9

So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?"

He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Feed My lambs."

He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?"

He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Tend My sheep."

He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?"

Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You."

Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep. Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish."

This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God.

And when He had spoken this, He said to him, "Follow Me."

In Christ, Pat

If you look at the conversation between Peter and Jesus where he is asking him if he loves him in Greek, it is even more distressing.....    Jesus was asking him if he loved him as God loves us.  Peters reply is a different word meaning more of a good friend and not the depth of love God has expressed toward us....

Actually the last time Jesus asked he asked with that other word paraphrasing "are you really even my friend."   It wasn't that Jesus was badgering him with the same question over and over, the last time he asked him a really different question.

 

"Peter,    are you even my friend?"     And we have to remember that a very short time earlier that Peter had publically stated that he didn't even know him.  It had to have hurt him deeply.

Yes, and yet it attests to the Lord's great mercy that despite that deep hurt that Christ entrusted Peter to be the first spokesman for the post Pentecost Church that brought in over 3000 converts in its first day. Certainly from that day on Peter walked faithfully proclaiming the Gospel to many and dying at the hands of Nero in crucifixion for being a Christian.

In Christ, Pat