Baptism

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

Neither has made the connection as how being born of water is flesh. How is being born of water mean being born from your mother. Im sorry but your paralleles are an incredible stretch.

 

to say that being born of flesh means natural birth, which entails "water" isn't a stretch at all. There is no impossible logical leap. I don't think it is referring to amniotic fluid either, but neither is it the incredible stretch you trying paint it to be. It is a valid argument whether one agrees with it or not.

The one making the "stretch" is you. You violate historical propriety by trying to claim that Jesus is speaking of Christian baptism before Christian baptism and the theology that surrounds it even existed.

Baptism in first century Jewish theology had an entirely different purpose than Christian baptism and so even IF Jesus were referring to baptism, it would not have meant to Nicodemus what it means to us.

The Bible doesn't say that when you are baptized you are born of spirit and water. Your claim can't be supported by the Bible.

Your first paragraph you support this idea and make the argument that it's not an impossible logical leap. My argument is far more logical and far more plausible.

So if you are going to say that being born of water means being born from your mother, is not an impossible logical leap than where in the Bible is that connection?

 

No, in my first paragraph I said it was "valid."  "Valid" doesn't mean true.  It simply means that there a rational basis for the claim.  That doesn't mean the claim is true.   To associate the water with amniotic fluid and to suggest that Jesus is referring to physical birth and spiritual birth is a valid way of looking at the text.  

 

Your argument has NO plausibility because you violate historical propriety in claiming that Jesus is referring to Christian baptism when that concept didn't exist at the time Jesus was talking to Nicodemus, so there is no way Nicodemus would have been able to make that connection.

 

You have not offered ONE shred of evidence that "water" in that passage MUST be referring to baptism. And you can't, which is why you ignore every request to provide such evidence. 

 

I am not claiming and have not claimed in the past that water is referring to amniotic fluid.  The conversation would run smoother if you would stop trying to refute me on arguments I never raised. 

[Sevenseas]

One key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." 

 

Early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5)

 

 

Your quote is misleading.  I am providing a link to a site that explains what beliefs were held and the reason for those beliefs

 

Water baptism was a tricky issue in the early church. As usual, I will give my short, concise answer, then follow that with a bit more historical context which will illustrate why there is not an easy answer.

The short answer is that ALL the early fathers believed that part of the conversion experience was going under the water in baptism. At the same time NONE of the early fathers said faith without baptism was impossible - in other words, NO church father argued that salvation was impossible without water baptism. It was simply assumed that a believer would be baptized.

Now the longer answer:

Without knowing the historical context (especially of the second century) you could read the early fathers and come away thinking that most of them believed water baptism was essential in salvation. The danger with reading the early fathers is taking them literally without knowing the historical context

 

 

READ THE REST HERE

 

The apostles baptized people in water after they were speaking in tongues, so either those people were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke or they were babbling or worse had another spirit.

 

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.46For they heard them speaking in tongues^b and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.  Acts 10

 

How can you state that baptism is necessary for salvation if Gentiles were speaking in tongues?  Apparently Peter recognized the Holy Spirit operating through newly saved individuals and then proceeded with water baptism AFTER that fact.

 

IMO, there would be some very deep concerns if people were demonstrating a gift of the Holy Spirit without being saved, don't you think?

[Sevenseas]

Shiloh are you saying that God's power is limited to what is in the Bible and he can not do anything unless its in the Bible?? Really is that going to be your position? God can ONLY do what is said in the Bible?

 

You see I don't think God has any limits at all... Perhaps your God is limited by what is written but mine is not.

 

 

Actually, we are the ones that are limited to what is in the Bible.

 

It is the standard we have.  God does have limits.  He cannot sin and He does not change.  He also does not confirm our words....He confirms His own.  That, is in the Bible.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

From Martin Luthers Large Catechism:

http://bocl.org/?LC+IV+6

My phone won't copy and paste from the site. But he says that we need to be baptized to be saved.

I'm going to assume we have some Protestants in the crowd. The great reformer Martin Luther taught salvation by baptism.

[Guest shiloh357]

From Martin Luthers Large Catechism:

http://bocl.org/?LC+IV+6

My phone won't copy and paste from the site. But he says that we need to be baptized to be saved.

I'm going to assume we have some Protestants in the crowd. The great reformer Martin Luther taught salvation by baptism.

Yeah and that great reformer was also flaming anti-Semite   >>>  http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm%C2'> So forgive me if I don't view him with the same level of infallibility as you.

 

Sorry, but you are going to have to make your case with the pure Word of God.   I can post scholars to make my case too, but the rule of law for the Christian is the Bible and you are going to have to show from Scripture that "water" in John 3 is baptismal water.   So far, you keep reiterating the same stuff, but provide nothing in the way of real exegesis.  Once again, it's because you can't.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

From Martin Luthers Large Catechism:

http://bocl.org/?LC+IV+6

My phone won't copy and paste from the site. But he says that we need to be baptized to be saved.

I'm going to assume we have some Protestants in the crowd. The great reformer Martin Luther taught salvation by baptism.

Yeah and that great reformer was also flaming anti-Semite >>> So forgive me if I don't view him with the same level of infallibility as you.

Sorry, but you are going to have to make your case with the pure Word of God. I can post scholars to make my case too, but the rule of law for the Christian is the Bible and you are going to have to show from Scripture that "water" in John 3 is baptismal water. So far, you keep reiterating the same stuff, but provide nothing in the way of real exegesis. Once again, it's because you can't.

Yeah yeah yeah.

***edit****

Shiloh I say this in friendly jest.... I'm going to take one of your replies to me and make it my signature so every time I post something I can save you the time it takes to respond.

In this thread and the other thread we got talking in you said the same thing over and over and over again. Doesn't matter the topic you always say the same thing c

Edited September 26, 2014 by Judas Machabeus

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

From Martin Luthers Large Catechism:

http://bocl.org/?LC+IV+6

My phone won't copy and paste from the site. But he says that we need to be baptized to be saved.

I'm going to assume we have some Protestants in the crowd. The great reformer Martin Luther taught salvation by baptism.

Yeah and that great reformer was also flaming anti-Semite >>> So forgive me if I don't view him with the same level of infallibility as you.

Sorry, but you are going to have to make your case with the pure Word of God. I can post scholars to make my case too, but the rule of law for the Christian is the Bible and you are going to have to show from Scripture that "water" in John 3 is baptismal water. So far, you keep reiterating the same stuff, but provide nothing in the way of real exegesis. Once again, it's because you can't.

Yeah yeah yeah.

***edit****

Shiloh I say this in friendly jest.... I'm going to take one of your replies to me and make it my signature so every time I post something I can save you the time it takes to respond.

In this thread and the other thread we got talking in you said the same thing over and over and over again. Doesn't matter the topic you always say the same thing c

 

But what I say is true. You haven't and you can't support biblically, anything you are claiming here.

[Sevenseas]

From Martin Luthers Large Catechism:

http://bocl.org/?LC+IV+6

My phone won't copy and paste from the site. But he says that we need to be baptized to be saved.

I'm going to assume we have some Protestants in the crowd. The great reformer Martin Luther taught salvation by baptism.

 

 

and I will sadly assume that you are ignoring the link I provided because it is succinct, well written and does not support your claims

 

we have Christians in the crowd...the Bible was not written for Catholics, Protestants or any other denom...it was written so that we might believe that

Jesus Christ is the Messiah and that by believing, we might have life in His name

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

From Martin Luthers Large Catechism:

http://bocl.org/?LC+IV+6

My phone won't copy and paste from the site. But he says that we need to be baptized to be saved.

I'm going to assume we have some Protestants in the crowd. The great reformer Martin Luther taught salvation by baptism.

and I will sadly assume that you are ignoring the link I provided because it is succinct, well written and does not support your claims

we have Christians in the crowd...the Bible was not written for Catholics, Protestants or any other denom...it was written so that we might believe that

Jesus Christ is the Messiah and that by believing, we might have life in His name

Sevensess,

No I did not read your link. And to accuse me of not reading because it doesn't support my position is irresponsible. How can I know it doesn't support my position if I Don't read it.

I didn't read it because I work from 9am to 9pm and do this correspondences on my phone between deliveries. When I get home I eat and go to bed. THAT is why I didn't read your link.

I have used scripture to make my point ( I can hear Shiloh banging on the keyboard now).

I did a quick google search and found that Luther tought the same thing which I found interesting since Protestants put a lot of value on the man.

[other one]