Saved by Grace only?

[Marilyn C]

Hi Samonee,

 

Sevenseas said what I was thinking too. Also we are saved by God`s grace through Christ`s atoning death & the proof of our receiving that, is obedience to God. This will be seen by others as good fruit, right attitudes. We need to remember though that people can seemingly show the `right attitude` so it`s only God who can reveal the motives of our heart - for self or for God.

 

Also people often confuse `good works,` with `God`s work` for us individually. God`s work is to become like Christ - attitudes, & to make disciples. - mentor, encourage, teach others. This will involve helping others but it will not mean being driven to `fix` the world problems. That is the challenge in these difficult days. 

[Butch5]

What would you think if a person asked you this question?:

Are you saved by grace only?

Or saved by grace plus works?

What would your answer be?

I would say, you're saved by God. The question is what are the conditions by which that salvation is attain. Trust and obedience are both conditions. The whole works play no role in salvation doctrine comes from the Reformation not the Scriptures. It was Martin Luther who claimed faith alone. He either misunderstood or took out of context Paul's teachings on works. If you look at the historical setting in which Paul was writing you'll find that there were a Jews who believed that were going behind Paul telling his converts that in addition to faith in Christ it was also necessary for them to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. That's why when you see him addressing the issue he says things like, 'no flesh shall be justified by the works of the Law.' If you look through the Scriptures where Paul address the works issue you'll find almost every time, a reference to the Law somewhere in the context. It's addressed in the Bible but it seems to get overlooked, consider Acts 15.

 

KJV  Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. (Act 15:1-2 KJV)

 

These were known as the Judaizers and the taught the new Gentile Christians that they had to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. There were even some of the Pharisees who were believers who said the same thing.

 

4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. {rose...: or, rose up, said they, certain}

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. (Act 15:4-6 KJV)

 

This was the reason for the Jerusalem council, to determine if it was necessary for the Gentiles to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. They determined that it was not necessary and sent Paul and Barnabas back with a letter from the Apostles.

 

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. (Act 15:19-20 KJV)

 

If you read the entire chapter there is more detail. Paul also touches on it in Galatians.

 

KJV  Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. {so many: or, so great}

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Gal 3:1-5 KJV)

 

Here Paul equates the flesh and the Law. He asks if they received the Spirit by faith or by doing the works of the Law, that the Mosaic Law. Notice verse one, who has bewitched you. 

 

This works issue is something that was an issue in Paul's day, I'm not aware of anyone today telling Christians that they need to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses in order to be saved. As I said, Luther either misunderstood or took out of context the whole works issue. He took it out of context to argue against the Catholic church

 

Paul actually teaches that obedience to Christ is necessary to salvation.

 

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; {Gentile: Gr. Greek}

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:  (Rom 2:5-10 KJV)

 

Paul indicates that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life. If works played no role in salvation then doing all the good works in the world would not be seeking salvation. 

[Samonee]

Aside from being circumcised & keeping the Law of Moses, I believe the person was talking about works in our day & age.

Like maybe sharing your faith, keeping the commandments, trying to live like Jesus would want us to, helping our neighbor, acknowledging our faith & Jesus to the world.

I understand that we are saved by grace, and that works naturally follows. But I believe the person was saying that if we are saved by grace only, we're not going to heaven.

Also, the person said that Jesus was not only saved by grace alone, that he did works like preaching that made his salvation by grace complete & without his works(preaching), his salvation by grace equaled back to nothing.

My comment is Jesus didn't even need to be saved, He is the Son of God, part of the Godhead, Trinity, He also helped create the world.

I disagree with the person's comment that Jesus was not just saved by grace only, that he also did works. I'm not disagreeing that Jesus did works, just that he didn't need to be saved. He's part of the Godhead.

I disagree with the person'a initial question & explanation because I feel they were demeaning the saved by grace & negating it.

[Butch5]

Aside from being circumcised & keeping the Law of Moses, I believe the person was talking about works in our day & age.

Like maybe sharing your faith, keeping the commandments, trying to live like Jesus would want us to, helping our neighbor, acknowledging our faith & Jesus to the world.

I understand that we are saved by grace, and that works naturally follows. But I believe the person was saying that if we are saved by grace only, we're not going to heaven.

Also, the person said that Jesus was not only saved by grace alone, that he did works like preaching that made his salvation by grace complete & without his works(preaching), his salvation by grace equaled back to nothing.

My comment is Jesus didn't even need to be saved, He is the Son of God, part of the Godhead, Trinity, He also helped create the world.

I disagree with the person's comment that Jesus was not just saved by grace only, that he also did works. I'm not disagreeing that Jesus did works, just that he didn't need to be saved. He's part of the Godhead.

I disagree with the person'a initial question & explanation because I feel they were demeaning the saved by grace & negating it.

Well, claiming Jesus needed to be saved is ridiculous

[Guest shiloh357]

 

What would you think if a person asked you this question?:

Are you saved by grace only?

Or saved by grace plus works?

What would your answer be?

I would say, you're saved by God. The question is what are the conditions by which that salvation is attain. Trust and obedience are both conditions. The whole works play no role in salvation doctrine comes from the Reformation not the Scriptures. It was Martin Luther who claimed faith alone. He either misunderstood or took out of context Paul's teachings on works. If you look at the historical setting in which Paul was writing you'll find that there were a Jews who believed that were going behind Paul telling his converts that in addition to faith in Christ it was also necessary for them to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. That's why when you see him addressing the issue he says things like, 'no flesh shall be justified by the works of the Law.' If you look through the Scriptures where Paul address the works issue you'll find almost every time, a reference to the Law somewhere in the context. It's addressed in the Bible but it seems to get overlooked, consider Acts 15.

 

KJV  Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. (Act 15:1-2 KJV)

 

These were known as the Judaizers and the taught the new Gentile Christians that they had to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. There were even some of the Pharisees who were believers who said the same thing.

 

4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. {rose...: or, rose up, said they, certain}

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. (Act 15:4-6 KJV)

 

This was the reason for the Jerusalem council, to determine if it was necessary for the Gentiles to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. They determined that it was not necessary and sent Paul and Barnabas back with a letter from the Apostles.

 

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. (Act 15:19-20 KJV)

 

If you read the entire chapter there is more detail. Paul also touches on it in Galatians.

 

KJV  Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. {so many: or, so great}

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Gal 3:1-5 KJV)

 

Here Paul equates the flesh and the Law. He asks if they received the Spirit by faith or by doing the works of the Law, that the Mosaic Law. Notice verse one, who has bewitched you. 

 

This works issue is something that was an issue in Paul's day, I'm not aware of anyone today telling Christians that they need to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses in order to be saved. As I said, Luther either misunderstood or took out of context the whole works issue. He took it out of context to argue against the Catholic church

 

Paul actually teaches that obedience to Christ is necessary to salvation.

 

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; {Gentile: Gr. Greek}

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:  (Rom 2:5-10 KJV)

 

Paul indicates that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life. If works played no role in salvation then doing all the good works in the world would not be seeking salvation. 

 

So if works play a role in how a person gets saved and stays saved, how do you know when you have done enough works or how would you know if your works were good enough to make you deserving of salvation?

 

Furthermore, how is salvation a gift of God (Rom. 6:23) if you have to earn it through good works?

[Fez]

Amazing grace how sweet the sound

that saved a wretch like me...

 

I will stick to grace alone.

[Samonee]

Shiloh357

---I agree with you

[Butch5]

 

 

What would you think if a person asked you this question?:

Are you saved by grace only?

Or saved by grace plus works?

What would your answer be?

I would say, you're saved by God. The question is what are the conditions by which that salvation is attain. Trust and obedience are both conditions. The whole works play no role in salvation doctrine comes from the Reformation not the Scriptures. It was Martin Luther who claimed faith alone. He either misunderstood or took out of context Paul's teachings on works. If you look at the historical setting in which Paul was writing you'll find that there were a Jews who believed that were going behind Paul telling his converts that in addition to faith in Christ it was also necessary for them to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. That's why when you see him addressing the issue he says things like, 'no flesh shall be justified by the works of the Law.' If you look through the Scriptures where Paul address the works issue you'll find almost every time, a reference to the Law somewhere in the context. It's addressed in the Bible but it seems to get overlooked, consider Acts 15.

 

KJV  Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. (Act 15:1-2 KJV)

 

These were known as the Judaizers and the taught the new Gentile Christians that they had to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. There were even some of the Pharisees who were believers who said the same thing.

 

4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. {rose...: or, rose up, said they, certain}

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. (Act 15:4-6 KJV)

 

This was the reason for the Jerusalem council, to determine if it was necessary for the Gentiles to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. They determined that it was not necessary and sent Paul and Barnabas back with a letter from the Apostles.

 

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. (Act 15:19-20 KJV)

 

If you read the entire chapter there is more detail. Paul also touches on it in Galatians.

 

KJV  Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. {so many: or, so great}

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Gal 3:1-5 KJV)

 

Here Paul equates the flesh and the Law. He asks if they received the Spirit by faith or by doing the works of the Law, that the Mosaic Law. Notice verse one, who has bewitched you. 

 

This works issue is something that was an issue in Paul's day, I'm not aware of anyone today telling Christians that they need to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses in order to be saved. As I said, Luther either misunderstood or took out of context the whole works issue. He took it out of context to argue against the Catholic church

 

Paul actually teaches that obedience to Christ is necessary to salvation.

 

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; {Gentile: Gr. Greek}

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:  (Rom 2:5-10 KJV)

 

Paul indicates that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life. If works played no role in salvation then doing all the good works in the world would not be seeking salvation. 

 

So if works play a role in how a person gets saved and stays saved, how do you know when you have done enough works or how would you know if your works were good enough to make you deserving of salvation?

 

Furthermore, how is salvation a gift of God (Rom. 6:23) if you have to earn it through good works?

 

Well, how much faith is enough to be saved? Jesus said, oh ye of little faith, and He said of the centurion that He had not seen such great faith in all of Israel. Does one get you saved and one doesn't? No, It's the same with works. Some are given more some less, look at the parable of the talents. One had 5, one had 2 and one had one. The ones who multiplied theirs were rewarded, the one who did nothing was cast out. I was how much they did but whether they did anything or not.  Jesus said,

 

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. (Joh 14:23-24 KJV)

 

He said, he that doesn't love Him doesn't keep His commandments. We can say we love Jesus all we want but if we don't keep His commandments, He says we don't love Him. 

 

If I gave you a puppy as a gift and you did nothing to it, what would happen?

[GoldenEagle]

What would you think if a person asked you this question?:

Are you saved by grace only?

Or saved by grace plus works?

What would your answer be?

Rom. 3:19-20

 

¹⁹ Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. ²⁰ For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

It is clear that no human being can be good enough to earn God's salvation and justification.

God bless,

GE

[Guest shiloh357]

Well, how much faith is enough to be saved?

The Bible doesn't quantify faith for salvation.  The Bible simply says that if we put our faith in Jesus for salvation we will be saved.

 

Jesus said, oh ye of little faith, and He said of the centurion that He had not seen such great faith in all of Israel. Does one get you saved and one doesn't? No, It's the same with works.

 

That is not true.  First of all you are misapplying the story about the centurion to an issue that it wasn't meant to address. And no it's no the same with works.  There are no works that get you saved.

 

 

Some are given more some less, look at the parable of the talents. One had 5, one had 2 and one had one. The ones who multiplied theirs were rewarded, the one who did nothing was cast out. I was how much they did but whether they did anything or not.

 

Same problem.  You are misapplying another passage of Scripture.  Notice the issue is reward for service.   Salvation isn't a reward.  Nowhere is salvation a reward for service in the Bible.  Salvation is by grace through faith ONLY.   If you can do something to get yourself saved, you don't need Jesus.

 

I also think you place a lot of value on your works.  We are sinners, fallen humanity we are all, in and of ourselves, wretches.  There is nothing good in us.  There is nothing you can do that would be good enough to make you worthy of salvation.   Your best deeds on your best days is nothing but filthy rags before God.  There is nothing we can do that is good enough for salvation.

 

 

Jesus said,

 

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. (Joh 14:23-24 KJV)

 

He said, he that doesn't love Him doesn't keep His commandments. We can say we love Jesus all we want but if we don't keep His commandments, He says we don't love Him. 

 

But notice that keeping His commandments is the outworking of the love we have for Him.  Jesus is not talking about how we are saved.  He is talking about our fellowship with the Father. 

 

Salvation is a transformation of the heart.  Those have been saved, will have a heart that operates from a sincere desire to serve the Lord.  We don't love Him to get saved, we love Him as a result of the work He has done in us.

 

 

If I gave you a puppy as a gift and you did nothing to it, what would happen?

 

 

That analogy doesn't speak to the issue I raised.   My question is how you reconcile Rom. 6:23 which says that salvation is a gift with your assertion that salvation is something that must be earned?