spiritual death

[mevosper]

Butch - I'm with you about annihilation. I believe God gives a spirit in us, we are born again. Those that don't receive the spirit were just as if they never existed. (this could lead into other topics, so i'm going to leave it right here).

 

But could you consider the idea that when Adam "ate" the fruit, and "there eyes were opened and they knew they were naked (Gen 3:7)" as being the spiritual death in which they died that day? At that moment they became "not perfect".  Earlier in Genesis "they were naked and knew it not."

 

 

EDITED: I think if you take this idea further, we can see how the fig leaves (other than being physically fragile and not very substantial - it was vegetation for pete's sake) would not suffice to cover their "nakedness". There had to be a sacrifice, a death, in this case an animal , to cover their "nakedness". In order for them, however, to put on incorruptible, an animal sacrifice was not going to work. It had to be a perfect man sacrifice in order to regain the immortality that the Spirit of God fulfills. That sacrifice, obviously being Jesus Christ. And this is why all men from the death of Christ, even til now have that saving grace - the countless number of souls mentioned in Revelation 7:9.

 

I hope I'm making sense. 

Edited October 4, 2014 by mevosper

[Willa]

When the word talks of sin causing death it's Spiritual death not physical death..when 10 people say so and one says 10 people are wrong who is right???

Everybody has physical death..they are warning what sin causes..seperatiuon from God.

Yes brother you are right, spiritual death is separation from the risen Lord. It means that after we put to rest the first ADAM we have a home, that is a permanent dwelling place prepared for us in the heavenly realm with our Lord. Either people will migrate from this earthly life to put on immortality or they will go off naked into the abyss, that is outer darkness of hell.

In that respect true believers walk as the dead amongst the living because they have already considered themselves dead to the carnal ways of this world.

I have always considered Christians to be walking among the zombies. Those who are not born again are not spiritually alive to God, and do not have the life of Christ in them. These people are truly dead and without hope. John 3:18 HE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he has not believed in the Name of the Only Begotton Son of God.. Only God has life. Jesus is the way and the life. We have life when we have the Holy Spirit living in us. The rest of the world is dead.

The early church covered the innocent baby problem by baptizing them as infants and believing that these unbelieving children were born again magicly by their baptism. But John 3:8 says that the wind blows where it wishes, and you can hear the sound of it but cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes. So is everyone that is born of the Spirit." The Holy Spirit has a mind of His own. He is God. We cannot put Him in a formula and expect Him to obey us. There is a promise that those who repent, believe in their hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, and who confess Jesus as Lord shall be saved. There is no promise that unbelievers shall be saved, including their infants. There is a verse in 1 Cor. 7:14 that says the family of a believer will be sanctified by them.

Romans 5:18a, Therefore as through one man's offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, ----19 For BY ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS, so also by one Man's obedeince many will be made righteous. [Therefore all are condemned due to Adam's sin. Even the baby is selfish, demanding needs be met. It is a survival instinct born in all men. Very early it gets angry when those needs are not met. Very early the word NO has meaning and rebellion or self assertion arise. These things are inherant in mankind.]

Romans 8:9b-Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the spirit of Him Who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit that dwells in you.

Back to Nicodemus in John 3, " unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." There would be no need for spiritual birth if he were already spiritually alive. All people are spiritually dead due to Adam's transgression. Yes, his flesh died. But his sin against the voice of God caused his spirit to also die. So mankind is already condemned or there would be no need to be saved and no need for a Savior.

Rev. 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolitors, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. 20:14 Then death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. NKJV

Rejoice, rather, that your name is written in the Book of Life.

Blessings,

Willa

[OneLight]

When the word talks of sin causing death it's Spiritual death not physical death..when 10 people say so and one says 10 people are wrong who is right???

Everybody has physical death..they are warning what sin causes..seperatiuon from God.

I dust my feeet with this now.With some you can never concince..you need to ask your pastor and study for yourself.I won't go on about myself but I will say I have studied this over 40 yrs and am not dumb..so carry on if you wish.

I have studied it. Have you noticed that no one has present a single passage of Scripture that says anything about spiritual death? Rather people speak of passages that say death and then they say it's spiritual death. They say it, the passage doesn't. Do a computer search for the phrase spiritual death in the Bible and you won't find the phrase anywhere.

 

It was given, but dismissed.  Allow me to ask you this about Genesis 2:17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.".

• God told Adam that if he ate from the tree, he would surely die.
• Since he did not die, are you implying that Adam was set to live forever?  Please provide scripture if you believe this.
• Since he did not die, could it be that his death was of the spiritual nature by separating him from the life giving spirit God had given him?
• Since Adam did not die, are you implying that God lied?  So you know, I highly doubt this.

If none of the above are what you are saying, please tell me what you believe the verse is saying, and as you request, provide scripture.

[Butch5]

 

 

When the word talks of sin causing death it's Spiritual death not physical death..when 10 people say so and one says 10 people are wrong who is right???

Everybody has physical death..they are warning what sin causes..seperatiuon from God.

I dust my feeet with this now.With some you can never concince..you need to ask your pastor and study for yourself.I won't go on about myself but I will say I have studied this over 40 yrs and am not dumb..so carry on if you wish.

I have studied it. Have you noticed that no one has present a single passage of Scripture that says anything about spiritual death? Rather people speak of passages that say death and then they say it's spiritual death. They say it, the passage doesn't. Do a computer search for the phrase spiritual death in the Bible and you won't find the phrase anywhere.

 

 

It was given, but dismissed.  Allow me to ask you this about Genesis 2:17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.".

• God told Adam that if he ate from the tree, he would surely die.
• Since he did not die, are you implying that Adam was set to live forever?  Please provide scripture if you believe this.
• Since he did not die, could it be that his death was of the spiritual nature by separating him from the life giving spirit God had given him?
• Since Adam did not die, are you implying that God lied?  So you know, I highly doubt this.

If none of the above are what you are saying, please tell me what you believe the verse is saying, and as you request, provide scripture.

 

Hi Onelight,

 

It is my contention that Adam did die the day he ate of the tree. I believe the answer lies in the word day.  I think many time we assume God meant 24 hours, however, I don't believe that is the case. I have addressed this question in If you still have questions I'd be happy to address them

[OneLight]

 

 

 

When the word talks of sin causing death it's Spiritual death not physical death..when 10 people say so and one says 10 people are wrong who is right???

Everybody has physical death..they are warning what sin causes..seperatiuon from God.

I dust my feeet with this now.With some you can never concince..you need to ask your pastor and study for yourself.I won't go on about myself but I will say I have studied this over 40 yrs and am not dumb..so carry on if you wish.

I have studied it. Have you noticed that no one has present a single passage of Scripture that says anything about spiritual death? Rather people speak of passages that say death and then they say it's spiritual death. They say it, the passage doesn't. Do a computer search for the phrase spiritual death in the Bible and you won't find the phrase anywhere.

 

 

It was given, but dismissed.  Allow me to ask you this about Genesis 2:17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.".

• God told Adam that if he ate from the tree, he would surely die.
• Since he did not die, are you implying that Adam was set to live forever?  Please provide scripture if you believe this.
• Since he did not die, could it be that his death was of the spiritual nature by separating him from the life giving spirit God had given him?
• Since Adam did not die, are you implying that God lied?  So you know, I highly doubt this.

If none of the above are what you are saying, please tell me what you believe the verse is saying, and as you request, provide scripture.

 

Hi Onelight,

 

It is my contention that Adam did die the day he ate of the tree. I believe the answer lies in the word day.  I think many time we assume God meant 24 hours, however, I don't believe that is the case. I have addressed this question in If you still have questions I'd be happy to address them

 

 

I do not accept that a day is a thousand years in Genesis since God clearly states the evening and the morning is a day, one revolution of the earth.  What you are presenting is how time relates to God, where there is no time since He is timeless.  When it comes to man, He uses a revolution of the earth as a day.    You will notice that in Genesis 5:4, God refers to Adams days as "the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters."  God is referring to human days, not His days.

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

When the word talks of sin causing death it's Spiritual death not physical death..when 10 people say so and one says 10 people are wrong who is right???

Everybody has physical death..they are warning what sin causes..seperatiuon from God.

I dust my feeet with this now.With some you can never concince..you need to ask your pastor and study for yourself.I won't go on about myself but I will say I have studied this over 40 yrs and am not dumb..so carry on if you wish.

I have studied it. Have you noticed that no one has present a single passage of Scripture that says anything about spiritual death? Rather people speak of passages that say death and then they say it's spiritual death. They say it, the passage doesn't. Do a computer search for the phrase spiritual death in the Bible and you won't find the phrase anywhere.

 

 

It was given, but dismissed.  Allow me to ask you this about Genesis 2:17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.".

• God told Adam that if he ate from the tree, he would surely die.
• Since he did not die, are you implying that Adam was set to live forever?  Please provide scripture if you believe this.
• Since he did not die, could it be that his death was of the spiritual nature by separating him from the life giving spirit God had given him?
• Since Adam did not die, are you implying that God lied?  So you know, I highly doubt this.

If none of the above are what you are saying, please tell me what you believe the verse is saying, and as you request, provide scripture.

 

Hi Onelight,

 

It is my contention that Adam did die the day he ate of the tree. I believe the answer lies in the word day.  I think many time we assume God meant 24 hours, however, I don't believe that is the case. I have addressed this question in If you still have questions I'd be happy to address them

 

 

I do not accept that a day is a thousand years in Genesis since God clearly states the evening and the morning is a day, one revolution of the earth.  What you are presenting is how time relates to God, where there is no time since He is timeless.  When it comes to man, He uses a revolution of the earth as a day.    You will notice that in Genesis 5:4, God refers to Adams days as "the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters."  God is referring to human days, not His days.

 

You're free to reject it, that 's your prerogative. However, as I pointed out, this is both the ancient Jewish and Christian understanding of the passage. Also ,notice in the passage you quoted, the days of Adam are given in years, not days. The actually days of Adam at 800 years would be 292,000. I also gave more information regarding the thousand year day in

 

However, even if one rejects the days as a thousand years, there is nothing in this passage that indicates spiritual death, that idea is purely an assumption.

[OneLight]

When the word talks of sin causing death it's Spiritual death not physical death..when 10 people say so and one says 10 people are wrong who is right???

Everybody has physical death..they are warning what sin causes..seperatiuon from God.

I dust my feeet with this now.With some you can never concince..you need to ask your pastor and study for yourself.I won't go on about myself but I will say I have studied this over 40 yrs and am not dumb..so carry on if you wish.

I have studied it. Have you noticed that no one has present a single passage of Scripture that says anything about spiritual death? Rather people speak of passages that say death and then they say it's spiritual death. They say it, the passage doesn't. Do a computer search for the phrase spiritual death in the Bible and you won't find the phrase anywhere.

 

It was given, but dismissed.  Allow me to ask you this about Genesis 2:17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.".

• God told Adam that if he ate from the tree, he would surely die.
• Since he did not die, are you implying that Adam was set to live forever?  Please provide scripture if you believe this.
• Since he did not die, could it be that his death was of the spiritual nature by separating him from the life giving spirit God had given him?
• Since Adam did not die, are you implying that God lied?  So you know, I highly doubt this.

If none of the above are what you are saying, please tell me what you believe the verse is saying, and as you request, provide scripture.

Hi Onelight,

 

It is my contention that Adam did die the day he ate of the tree. I believe the answer lies in the word day.  I think many time we assume God meant 24 hours, however, I don't believe that is the case. I have addressed this question in If you still have questions I'd be happy to address them

 

I do not accept that a day is a thousand years in Genesis since God clearly states the evening and the morning is a day, one revolution of the earth.  What you are presenting is how time relates to God, where there is no time since He is timeless.  When it comes to man, He uses a revolution of the earth as a day.    You will notice that in Genesis 5:4, God refers to Adams days as "the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters."  God is referring to human days, not His days.

You're free to reject it, that 's your prerogative. However, as I pointed out, this is both the ancient Jewish and Christian understanding of the passage. Also ,notice in the passage you quoted, the days of Adam are given in years, not days. The actually days of Adam at 800 years would be 292,000. I also gave more information regarding the thousand year day in

 

However, even if one rejects the days as a thousand years, there is nothing in this passage that indicates spiritual death, that idea is purely an assumption.

 

And you do not go deeper by giving direct scripture, showing that it is your belief, not scripture, that rejects spiritual death.  Others have provided other verses pointing to spiritual death, which is known as the separation from the presence of God and can only be redeemed by the forgiveness of Sin through Jesus.  Romans 6:23; Colossians 2:13; Ephesians 2:1-3, 5:8; 1 John 5:12, to name a few.

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

 

 

When the word talks of sin causing death it's Spiritual death not physical death..when 10 people say so and one says 10 people are wrong who is right???

Everybody has physical death..they are warning what sin causes..seperatiuon from God.

I dust my feeet with this now.With some you can never concince..you need to ask your pastor and study for yourself.I won't go on about myself but I will say I have studied this over 40 yrs and am not dumb..so carry on if you wish.

I have studied it. Have you noticed that no one has present a single passage of Scripture that says anything about spiritual death? Rather people speak of passages that say death and then they say it's spiritual death. They say it, the passage doesn't. Do a computer search for the phrase spiritual death in the Bible and you won't find the phrase anywhere.

 

 

It was given, but dismissed.  Allow me to ask you this about Genesis 2:17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.".

• God told Adam that if he ate from the tree, he would surely die.
• Since he did not die, are you implying that Adam was set to live forever?  Please provide scripture if you believe this.
• Since he did not die, could it be that his death was of the spiritual nature by separating him from the life giving spirit God had given him?
• Since Adam did not die, are you implying that God lied?  So you know, I highly doubt this.

If none of the above are what you are saying, please tell me what you believe the verse is saying, and as you request, provide scripture.

 

Hi Onelight,

 

It is my contention that Adam did die the day he ate of the tree. I believe the answer lies in the word day.  I think many time we assume God meant 24 hours, however, I don't believe that is the case. I have addressed this question in If you still have questions I'd be happy to address them

 

 

I do not accept that a day is a thousand years in Genesis since God clearly states the evening and the morning is a day, one revolution of the earth.  What you are presenting is how time relates to God, where there is no time since He is timeless.  When it comes to man, He uses a revolution of the earth as a day.    You will notice that in Genesis 5:4, God refers to Adams days as "the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters."  God is referring to human days, not His days.

 

You're free to reject it, that 's your prerogative. However, as I pointed out, this is both the ancient Jewish and Christian understanding of the passage. Also ,notice in the passage you quoted, the days of Adam are given in years, not days. The actually days of Adam at 800 years would be 292,000. I also gave more information regarding the thousand year day in

 

However, even if one rejects the days as a thousand years, there is nothing in this passage that indicates spiritual death, that idea is purely an assumption.

 

 

And you do not go deeper by giving direct scripture, showing that it is your belief, not scripture, that rejects spiritual death.  Others have provided other verses pointing to spiritual death, which is known as the separation from the presence of God and can only be redeemed by the forgiveness of Sin through Jesus.  Romans 6:23; Colossians 2:13; Ephesians 2:1-3, 5:8; 1 John 5:12, to name a few.

 

I didn't give Scripture? I gave Scriptural and historical evidence. What's not in the Scriptures is this idea of spiritual death. I notice you said others gave Scripture "pointing" to spiritual death. It may point to spiritual death is one imposes that idea on the Scriptures, because they certainly aren't deriving it from Scripture. 

 

The Scriptures don't even use the phrase "spiritual death."  There is nowhere in Scripture that separation from God is called spiritual death. Both the idea of spiritual death and that definition are simply ideas from men. I gave quite a bit of evidence, both Scriptural and historical for my understanding of the passage. However, if you'd rather believe some idea that doesn't have the first bit of Biblical support that's your perogative. 

[OneLight]

I didn't give Scripture? I gave Scriptural and historical evidence. What's not in the Scriptures is this idea of spiritual death. I notice you said others gave Scripture "pointing" to spiritual death. It may point to spiritual death is one imposes that idea on the Scriptures, because they certainly aren't deriving it from Scripture. 

 

The Scriptures don't even use the phrase "spiritual death."  There is nowhere in Scripture that separation from God is called spiritual death. Both the idea of spiritual death and that definition are simply ideas from men. I gave quite a bit of evidence, both Scriptural and historical for my understanding of the passage. However, if you'd rather believe some idea that doesn't have the first bit of Biblical support that's your perogative.

Perhaps I missed the verse that tells us what God meant. All I have found is your argument about a day is like a thousand years, not that man did not die spiritually. Tell me, if man is known to be alive in the spirit (spiritually alive), why is it so difficult to see that many be dead in spirit (spiritually dead)?

"However, if you'd rather believe some idea that doesn't have the first bit of Biblical support that's your perogative.", as it is you prerogative to believe to ignore the pattern God used in Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23 and 31 when He gave us the meaning of a day.

[Butch5]

 

I didn't give Scripture? I gave Scriptural and historical evidence. What's not in the Scriptures is this idea of spiritual death. I notice you said others gave Scripture "pointing" to spiritual death. It may point to spiritual death is one imposes that idea on the Scriptures, because they certainly aren't deriving it from Scripture. 

 

The Scriptures don't even use the phrase "spiritual death."  There is nowhere in Scripture that separation from God is called spiritual death. Both the idea of spiritual death and that definition are simply ideas from men. I gave quite a bit of evidence, both Scriptural and historical for my understanding of the passage. However, if you'd rather believe some idea that doesn't have the first bit of Biblical support that's your perogative.

Perhaps I missed the verse that tells us what God meant. All I have found is your argument about a day is like a thousand years, not that man did not die spiritually. Tell me, if man is known to be alive in the spirit (spiritually alive), why is it so difficult to see that many be dead in spirit (spiritually dead)?

"However, if you'd rather believe some idea that doesn't have the first bit of Biblical support that's your perogative.", as it is you prerogative to believe to ignore the pattern God used in Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23 and 31 when He gave us the meaning of a day.

 

You see, I gave you Scripture from both David and Peter that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. Now, you post about man being alive in the spirit and have to define it in parenthesis. I'm not the one who said a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, It was an apostle of Christ who was quote a prophet from the Old testament. I've not denied anywhere that 24 hour is equal to a day, I've simply stated that that is not what God meant when he told Adam he would die in the day he ate from the treat. 

 

Since the only death there is is physical death and Adam didn't die physically the only possible answer is that God did not mean 24 hours when He said a day.

 

The Scriptures call death, death, not separation from God. Separation from God is the result of death, not the definition of it. The Scriptures say that the dead cannot praise God.

 

There simply is nothing about spiritual death in the Scriptures, one cannot even make a case for the teaching, because it's not there.