Marriage of the lamb

[WilliamL]

 

 

The Virgin Bride of Christ ascends to the heavenly wedding at His Coming.

 

 

Who's The Virgin Bride of Christ?

 

So the Virgin Bride "ascends" to heaven @ HIS Coming?

 

Well when Jesus RETURNS HE's "Descending" from Heaven to the Earth.  The Virgin Bride is "Ascending" to Heaven @ the Same Time.   See the problem?

 

 

Also, Please show this scenario @ HIS Coming....

 

(Revelation 19:7-16) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.  {10} And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  {11} And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

 

From the Above passage "The Wife" is already in Heaven Before HIS Return.  Moreover, She Follows HIM with HIS armies when HE does Return (arrayed in fine linen, clean and white).

 

How Can She Be both: Ascending into Heaven when He's "Descending" (as you say) AND Be in Heaven before HE Returns and Follows HIM while HE'S Returning?

 

 

Lets figure the above out before moving on to this....

 

Those who did not fall into this category at the Lord's coming, but thereafter have come to believe in Him, are His servants on earth who wait for his return from the wedding: these being "the remnant of Jacob" spoken of in a number of OT prophecies.

That latter coming is that which takes place in Rev. 19, Zech. 14, and Ezek 38-39. Note verse 12:37 from Luke which you didn't quote:

12:37 Blessed [are] those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

Rev. 19:17 Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.

Ezek 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, [even] a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. 18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. [etc.]

 

Enoch,Apologies for the delay in responding, I only get online every 2-3 days.

 

The Virgin Bride = Church of Christ = His Body waits for His return/Coming in the clouds/air, and is caught up to meet Him in the clouds, to be ever with the Lord, being taken to the place prepared for her/them. This great multitude is first seen in heaven in Rev. 7.

 

This takes place after the 6th Seal is opened : every eye on earth, and among the dead, and among the ones in heaven, see his coming. In their faces, he takes his bride into the clouds of heaven..

 

A remnant of Jacob remains on the earth, because they were ignorant of, or not ready for, the time of his coming. These are the children of the Woman/Mother of Rev. 12, who flee to the wilderness where there is the place prepared for her/them. The 144,000 are preeminent of these, akin to the 70 elders who briefly entered the Presence on Mt. Sinai with Moses, but then returned below, while Moses and Joshua remained in the Presence.

 

Christ's assertion of authority over the earth occurs later : the last being the one in Rev. 19:11-21 = 6th and 7th Bowls = Ezek. 38-39 = Zech. 14 = Armageddon and the battle for Jerusalem. These mark the time when the Lord puts his feet on the Mount of Olives, like he did the first time that he entered Jerusalem as its King. This time he is playing for keeps.

 

Everything in Rev. 19 up to verse 11 is review of past events up to the time of Armageddon. In :7, the phrase "his wife made herself ready" uses an aorist verb, indicating past and continuous action, not present tense.

 

Moreover, She Follows HIM with HIS armies when HE does Return (arrayed in fine linen, clean and white). This quote from verse 14 says armies in heaven, not bride. There will be others up there besides the bride, you know. Like the dude Michael, and all his homies.

Edited November 16, 2014 by WilliamL

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

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I'll try and be brief....

 

Those who did not fall into this category at the Lord's coming, but thereafter have come to believe in Him, are His servants on earth who wait for his return from the wedding: these being "the remnant of Jacob" spoken of in a number of OT prophecies.

That latter coming is that which takes place in Rev. 19, Zech. 14, and Ezek 38-39

 

 

Those who don't fall into "The Church"/Born Again Christian Category?   "The Remnant of Jacob" is Israel.  What about everybody else?

 

Ezekiel 38-39 is the Gog/Magog Invasion and has Absolutely Nothing to do with Revelation/"Great Tribulation"/The Second Coming.

 

The "latter coming" is The Second Coming that takes place in Rev 19.  "The Remnant" of Jacob Petitions HIM to return.

 

 

Note verse 12:37 from Luke which you didn't quote:

 

12:37 Blessed [are] those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 

 

 

Why would I need to?

 

 

Rev. 19:17 Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.

 

 

And....?

 

This was an angel talking to fouls....

 

(Revelation 19:17-18) "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;  {18} That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

 

 

Ezek 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, [even] a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. 18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. [etc.]

 

 

So you're thinking this is speaking to the same event as Revelation 19?  Who is speaking to the "feathered" fowls in this passage?  Who is speaking to the fowls in Revelation 19:17-18?  Can you point out any other differences?

 

And since you think Ezekiel 38-40 is speaking about the Same Events in Revelation, can you please point out in the Ezekiel Passages any of these please...

 

THE LAMB or The LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH??      Then: satan/ ac/ False Prophet/ Mark of the beast/ Martyrs/ 2 Witnesses.....Preaching, Killed, then Resurrected....rising to Heaven with everyone watching /Mystery Babylon/ Babylon Proper...being destroyed/ Tribulation Saints/ 144,00 Sealed/ 7 Churches/  7 Seals/ 7 Trumpets/ 7 Bowls/ Locusts....tormenting men 5 Months/ Signs in sun, moon, stars, heaven/ Bottomless Pit/ Michael Casting satan out of Heaven with 1/3 of his angels/ 24 Elders/ 4 Living Creatures with six wings about them/ The Four Horseman/ Wormwood/ The 4 Angels loosed from the great river Euphrates/ Army of two hundred thousand thousand/ The Temple of GOD/ The Ark of HIS Testament/ Blasphemy against GOD/ Abomination of Desolation/ Deadly Head Wound...then Healed/ Image of the Beast that came to Life/ Mount Sion/ Flying Angel Preaching the Gospel/ Angels with Sharp Sickles/ Vine and Grapes/ Great Winepress/ Blood 1600 Furlongs up to Horses Bridles/ Grievous Sores upon Men/ sea as blood of a dead man and ALL sea-life Died/ Sun Scorching men with Fire/ Angel Standing on the Sun/ men gnawing their tongues in pain...No Repentance/ Frogs out of the mouth of dragon, the beast, people with the mark....cast into the Lake of Fire/ Marriage Supper/ Wife....arrayed in fine linen, white and clean/ White Horse/ Vesture dipped in Blood....written on the side: KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

Also, What is the Purpose of the Gog/Magog Invasion?  Then, What is the purpose of the "great tribulation"?

 

 

Enoch,Apologies for the delay in responding, I only get online every 2-3 days.

 

 

No worries, No apologies necessary....  Whenever you get to it.

 

 

1. The Virgin Bride = Church of Christ = His Body waits for His return/Coming in the clouds/air, and is caught up to meet Him in the clouds, to be ever with the Lord, being taken to the place prepared for her/them.

 

2.  This great multitude is first seen in heaven in Rev. 7.

 

 

#1----  Correct.

 

#2----Not a snowballs chance on a beach.  For Brevity, just two....

 

First, please show anywhere in Revelation, these events "Specifically"...?? :  (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

Second, These are "Tribulation Saints".  John, Part of "The Church"/Born Again Christian, didn't recognize them....(Revelation 7:13-14) "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  {14} And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

 

 

This takes place after the 6th Seal is opened : every eye on earth, and among the dead, and among the ones in heaven, see his coming. In their faces, he takes his bride into the clouds of heaven..

 

 

Please Post the "Specific" Scripture(s) speaking to this event after the 6th Seal is opened.....?

 

 

Moreover, She Follows HIM with HIS armies when HE does Return (arrayed in fine linen, clean and white).

 

This quote from verse 14 says armies in heaven, not bride. There will be others up there besides the bride, you know. Like the dude Michael, and all his homies.

 

 

It doesn't say "The Wife" specifically, but she is in the same attire (arrayed in fine linen, clean and white) as who is returning with HIM..... so it's inferred.  I never said it was ONLY her.

 

The "dude" Michael, eh?  Tell ya what, come find me when we're up there....and we'll go find Michael, and I want to here you say to him...."Hey Dude!!"    I would very much like to see his reaction  

[WilliamL]

Enoch, you are shotgunning me with questions, without seriously considering what I've written. I don't see this as reasoned debate, just a single-focus mindset.

 

I'll respond to one point. Why does the Rapture take place at the sixth seal? Because Jesus says in Matt. 24 that he comes for his elect "immediately after" the great tribulation, and the heavenly and earthly cataclysmic signs that follow. We see the very same cataclysms taking place at the sixth seal, Rev. 6:12-14. Then in verses 14-17, people

 

"hid[e] themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and sa[y] to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

 

The reason they say this is, obviously, because they have seen them, God and Christ. This is the fulfillment of Rev. 1:7:

 

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.

 

That is what the men of 7:14-17 are doing, mourning because they've seen him coming in the clouds for his bride/Church/elect, who are thereafter shown to be in heaven in Rev. 7. This is exactly what Paul was speaking about in Heb. 12:22-25:

 

...you [will] come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect. See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.”

 

The ones who fear this coming in the clouds are the ones who turn away from it. That is what those men of the 6th seal are doing, turning away and hiding in the earth at the very time of Christ's coming in the clouds to take up his Church to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect. These are the raptured saints of Rev. 7.

 

Enoch, if you cannot understand this foundational truth about Revelation, then you cannot understand the sequence of events in the rest of the book. If so, no more need for discussion.

Edited November 18, 2014 by WilliamL

[WilliamL]

As an addenda to the above, from another article:

 

Isaiah 2:10-21 also speaks of this time. Verse 19:

 

They shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, from the terror of the LORD and the glory of His majesty, when He arises to shake the earth mightily.

 

And also Rev. 1:7:

 Behold, He [Jesus] is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn/wail because of Him.

 

which brings us, conclusively, to Jesus’ words in Matthew 24:30:

 

… then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

All of these verses refer to the time of the 6th seal, when men hide themselves from the Presence/Face/Coming of the Lord, after the manifestation of heavenly and earthly cataclysms and signs.

[Enoch2021]

Enoch, you are shotgunning me with questions, without seriously considering what I've written. I don't see this as reasoned debate, just a single-focus mindset.

 

I'll respond to one point. Why does the Rapture take place at the sixth seal? Because Jesus says in Matt. 24 that he comes for his elect "immediately after" the great tribulation, and the heavenly and earthly cataclysmic signs that follow. We see the very same cataclysms taking place at the sixth seal, Rev. 6:12-14. Then in verses 14-17, people

 

"hid[e] themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and sa[y] to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

 

The reason they say this is, obviously, because they have seen them, God and Christ. This is the fulfillment of Rev. 1:7:

 

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.

 

That is what the men of 7:14-17 are doing, mourning because they've seen him coming in the clouds for his bride/Church/elect, who are thereafter shown to be in heaven in Rev. 7. This is exactly what Paul was speaking about in Heb. 12:22-25:

 

...you [will] come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect. See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.”

 

The ones who fear this coming in the clouds are the ones who turn away from it. That is what those men of the 6th seal are doing, turning away and hiding in the earth at the very time of Christ's coming in the clouds to take up his Church to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect. These are the raptured saints of Rev. 7.

 

Enoch, if you cannot understand this foundational truth about Revelation, then you cannot understand the sequence of events in the rest of the book. If so, no more need for discussion.

 

 

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Enoch, you are shotgunning me with questions, without seriously considering what I've written.

 

 

How do you know I haven't "Seriously Considered" what you have written....?

 

Well you have offered many Unsupported Postulates; Ergo....the many questions.

 

 

I don't see this as reasoned debate, just a single-focus mindset.

 

 

As Evidenced By........what?  So as to raise this out of the confines of a Baseless Assertion (Fallacy) where it currently resides.

 

 

Why does the Rapture take place at the sixth seal? Because Jesus says in Matt. 24 that he comes for his elect "immediately after" the great tribulation

 

 

The Rapture is dealing with "The Church".  How is Christ talking about "The Church" here in Matthew, when "The Mystery of the Church" wasn't revealed until it was Paul's honor to reveal it here...

 

(Ephesians 3:1-6) "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,  {2} If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:  {3} How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,  {4} Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)  {5} Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;  {6} That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

 

??

 

Could the "elect" be another group?  The Jewish Remnant Perhaps?

 

By Proxy of your statements, you hold that "The Church" must go Through the "great tribulation", correct?  If so, here's some more questions that Must Be answered....

 

1. How is "The Bride/The Wife/The Church/Born Again Christians" @ The Marriage Supper in Heaven then accompanying HIM on HIS Return (Second Coming) while still being on the Earth during the Great Tribulation??

 

 

2.  Any other position than the Pre-Trib position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation....

Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time).  So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.  Please show this anywhere in Scripture....?

 

 

3.

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

(Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

(2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

If any "Christians" that have read Daniel Chapter 9:27 (Every "Christian" {other than newly converted} that I ever met is somewhat to Overtly aware of it) Observe or Hear of the Abomination of Desolation....They can more or less Mark their Calendars and Set Their Watches for Christ's Return....Whereby Scuttling the Above Passages along with another 8-10 that I didn't post.

Either the above passages are True/Correct...... OR..... Mid/Post Trib Rapture is True.  They are clearly Mutually Exclusive....BOTH can't be TRUE.

 

 

Why does the Rapture take place at the sixth seal? Because Jesus says in Matt. 24 that he comes for his elect "immediately after" the great tribulation

 

 

The 6th Seal Ends the "great tribulation"??  Can you show where the "great tribulation" starts in Revelation?

What does Jesus say concerning WHEN this "great tribulation" starts?  ...

(Matthew 24:15-21) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  {16}  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  {17}  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  {18}  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  {19}  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  {20}  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  {21}  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

What does Daniel have to say about this "Abomination of Desolation"....

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

So in the midst of Daniel's 70th Week is the Abomination of Desolation.  What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?  This is Blaspheming GOD i.e., stand in the Holy Place and claim he is GOD.

Where do we find this event in Revelation....

(Revelation 13:4-6) "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?  {5} And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.  {6} And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven."

How can the "great tribulation" start somewhere before....then end in the 6th Seal, when this passage is between the 7th Trumpet and First Vial??  

 

How long is the "great tribulation"?  GREAT TRIBULATION: "Time and Times, and a Dividing of Time": Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14; "1260 Days": Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6 ; "42 Months": Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5.

 

What is the Purpose of the "great tribulation"?

 

And What "Coming" is referred to in Revelation 19?

 

 

"hid[e] themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and sa[y] to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

 

The reason they say this is, obviously, because they have seen them, God and Christ. This is the fulfillment of Rev. 1:7:

 

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.

 

 

 

It most certainly does not mean they have seen HIM; in fact, it means the opposite....they are "hiding" from the face of HIM.  They don't have to See the Source to know where these things are being Sourced from??

 

Please show anywhere in the Seal Judgments, Jesus coming "With" the Clouds....? 

 

(Revelation 1:7) "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

 

Juxtaposed with The Rapture Scripture...

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

 

1 Thess says will meet the LORD " IN " the clouds....it doesn't say HE came with the clouds.  Moreover, please show: The Lord descending from Heaven, with a shout, voice of the archangel, trump of GOD, The dead rising, and the alive meeting HIM and the Dead in the clouds, in the air .....not only in the Seal Judgments, but Anywhere in Revelation......?

 

 

That is what the men of 7:14-17 are doing, mourning because they've seen him coming in the clouds for his bride/Church/elect, who are thereafter shown to be in heaven in Rev. 7. 

 

 

They aren't "mourning" they are "fearing"....due to what just happened in the previous 5 Seal Judgments. 

 

And I've already given you ample reasons why the group in Revelation 7 (The Tribulation Saints) are not "The Church"...that you failed to respond to.

 

 

Enoch, if you cannot understand this foundational truth about Revelation, then you cannot understand the sequence of events in the rest of the book. If so, no more need for discussion.

 

Foundational Truth?  Who's ??

 

Translation: Since you won't get on board with my Baseless Assertions (that were and are summarily and specifically refuted), this discussion is over.

 

 

Additionally, Who appointed you the teacher of foundational TRUTH in Revelation and me the Student?

 

Ponder these when you have some time...

 

(Acts 17:11) "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

 

Once we block....the readiness of mind; or "Open Mind", we become unteachable, It's OVER.

 

 

"the only barrier to TRUTH is the Presumption you already have it" (Unknown Author).  This echoes the Berean Passage above.

 

 

Hope you find the TRUTH.

[WilliamL]

Like I said, no more need for discussion. Others can read the our posts and make up their own minds. I'm always good with that.

[Guest]

if you cannot understand this foundational truth about Revelation,

 

then you cannot understand the sequence of events in the rest of the book.

 

If so, no more need for discussion.

 

 

Well Beloved, Just Like The Foundation Of The Holy Bible Itself

 

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1

 

The Foundation Of Revelation Is Jesus The Christ

 

The Revelation of Jesus Christ Revelation 1:1(a)

 

And Ends Up With Jesus The LORD

 

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20

 

And That Dear One, Is Cause

 

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

 

And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

 

And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

 

And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children,

 

and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house,

 

and when thou walkest by the way,

 

and when thou liest down,

 

and when thou

 

risest up. Deuteronomy 6:4-7

 

For Great Discussion

 

[iamlamad]

Enoch, you are shotgunning me with questions, without seriously considering what I've written. I don't see this as reasoned debate, just a single-focus mindset.

 

I'll respond to one point. Why does the Rapture take place at the sixth seal? Because Jesus says in Matt. 24 that he comes for his elect "immediately after" the great tribulation, and the heavenly and earthly cataclysmic signs that follow. We see the very same cataclysms taking place at the sixth seal, Rev. 6:12-14. Then in verses 14-17, people

 

"hid[e] themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and sa[y] to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

 

The reason they say this is, obviously, because they have seen them, God and Christ. This is the fulfillment of Rev. 1:7:

 

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.

 

That is what the men of 7:14-17 are doing, mourning because they've seen him coming in the clouds for his bride/Church/elect, who are thereafter shown to be in heaven in Rev. 7. This is exactly what Paul was speaking about in Heb. 12:22-25:

 

...you [will] come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect. See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.”

 

The ones who fear this coming in the clouds are the ones who turn away from it. That is what those men of the 6th seal are doing, turning away and hiding in the earth at the very time of Christ's coming in the clouds to take up his Church to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect. These are the raptured saints of Rev. 7.

 

Enoch, if you cannot understand this foundational truth about Revelation, then you cannot understand the sequence of events in the rest of the book. If so, no more need for discussion.

I'll respond to one point. Why does the Rapture take place at the sixth seal? Because Jesus says in Matt. 24 that he comes for his elect "immediately after" the great tribulation, and the heavenly and earthly cataclysmic signs that follow. We see the very same cataclysms taking place at the sixth seal, Rev. 6:12-14. Then in verses 14-17,

 

Sorry, but the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of do not begin until AFTER chapter 14, where God warns all to refuse the mark. Don't even think God would send this warning too late! It comes just before the mark is set up. So there is no "great tribulation" found at the 6th seal. What is found is a great earthquake, with the signs of Joel for the coming Day of the Lord.

 

A FAR better answer is this: Paul TELLS US the timing of His rapture: it will come as the trigger for the Day of the Lord. Those living in the light get raptured and get to "live together with Him."  On the other hand, those living in darkness get "sudden destruction" (at the same moment in time) which is the opening salvo of the Day of the Lord. John confirms this by saying "the day of His wrath has come." This ties Paul's rapture to just before the 6th seal. The earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising.

 

As more proof, then John SAW the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter, right after this rapture / earthquake event.

 

Please take note, John has not even STARTED the 70th week at this point in his narrative. The 70th week will begin with the 7th seal. John does not get the second half of the week until chapter 12, and the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will not begin until after chapter 14. Therefore, this great crowd too large to number DID NOT COME FROM CHAPTER 15 or the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of. All John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture, people will be killed for their testimony around the world. It will CERTAINLY be great tribulation for them, for they cannot be killed twice.

 

hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne

 

Do you think God gave them a vision? I really don't think these words prove that they SAW Him. Perhaps they only imagine Him looking down with great anger. Note carefully that HE IS ON THE THRONE. I don't think this text proves that He left the throne (either Father God or Jesus) and comes to earth at the 6th seal. In fact, John shows us His coming in chapter 19, LONG after these events at the 6th seal.

[WilliamL]

I'll respond to one point. Why does the Rapture take place at the sixth seal? Because Jesus says in Matt. 24 that he comes for his elect "immediately after" the great tribulation, and the heavenly and earthly cataclysmic signs that follow. We see the very same cataclysms taking place at the sixth seal, Rev. 6:12-14. Then in verses 14-17,

 

Sorry, but the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of do not begin until AFTER chapter 14, where God warns all to refuse the mark. Don't even think God would send this warning too late! It comes just before the mark is set up. So there is no "great tribulation" found at the 6th seal. What is found is a great earthquake, with the signs of Joel for the coming Day of the Lord.

 

A FAR better answer is this: Paul TELLS US the timing of His rapture: it will come as the trigger for the Day of the Lord. Those living in the light get raptured and get to "live together with Him."  On the other hand, those living in darkness get "sudden destruction" (at the same moment in time) which is the opening salvo of the Day of the Lord. John confirms this by saying "the day of His wrath has come." This ties Paul's rapture to just before the 6th seal. The earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising.

 

As more proof, then John SAW the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter, right after this rapture / earthquake event.

 

Please take note, John has not even STARTED the 70th week at this point in his narrative. The 70th week will begin with the 7th seal. John does not get the second half of the week until chapter 12, and the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will not begin until after chapter 14. Therefore, this great crowd too large to number DID NOT COME FROM CHAPTER 15 or the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of. All John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture, people will be killed for their testimony around the world. It will CERTAINLY be great tribulation for them, for they cannot be killed twice.

 

hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne

 

Do you think God gave them a vision? I really don't think these words prove that they SAW Him. Perhaps they only imagine Him looking down with great anger. Note carefully that HE IS ON THE THRONE. I don't think this text proves that He left the throne (either Father God or Jesus) and comes to earth at the 6th seal. In fact, John shows us His coming in chapter 19, LONG after these events at the 6th seal.

 

"...the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of do not begin until AFTER chapter 14, where God warns all to refuse the mark." What evidence do you show to support this? None.

 

"...there is no "great tribulation" found at the 6th seal." I never said there was; don't misquote me. The GT ends, as Jesus says in Matt. 24:29, just before the cataclysmic heavenly and earthy signs begin, the same ones shown in the 6th Seal. 

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

 

"The earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. ...John SAW the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter [7], right after this rapture / earthquake event." I said in my post that the raptured Church is seen in heaven in Chapter 7. I said it twice.

 

Clearly, you didn't read my post very carefully, and consider the scriptural quotes I made.

[iamlamad]

 

I'll respond to one point. Why does the Rapture take place at the sixth seal? Because Jesus says in Matt. 24 that he comes for his elect "immediately after" the great tribulation, and the heavenly and earthly cataclysmic signs that follow. We see the very same cataclysms taking place at the sixth seal, Rev. 6:12-14. Then in verses 14-17,

 

Sorry, but the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of do not begin until AFTER chapter 14, where God warns all to refuse the mark. Don't even think God would send this warning too late! It comes just before the mark is set up. So there is no "great tribulation" found at the 6th seal. What is found is a great earthquake, with the signs of Joel for the coming Day of the Lord.

 

A FAR better answer is this: Paul TELLS US the timing of His rapture: it will come as the trigger for the Day of the Lord. Those living in the light get raptured and get to "live together with Him."  On the other hand, those living in darkness get "sudden destruction" (at the same moment in time) which is the opening salvo of the Day of the Lord. John confirms this by saying "the day of His wrath has come." This ties Paul's rapture to just before the 6th seal. The earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising.

 

As more proof, then John SAW the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter, right after this rapture / earthquake event.

 

Please take note, John has not even STARTED the 70th week at this point in his narrative. The 70th week will begin with the 7th seal. John does not get the second half of the week until chapter 12, and the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will not begin until after chapter 14. Therefore, this great crowd too large to number DID NOT COME FROM CHAPTER 15 or the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of. All John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture, people will be killed for their testimony around the world. It will CERTAINLY be great tribulation for them, for they cannot be killed twice.

 

hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne

 

Do you think God gave them a vision? I really don't think these words prove that they SAW Him. Perhaps they only imagine Him looking down with great anger. Note carefully that HE IS ON THE THRONE. I don't think this text proves that He left the throne (either Father God or Jesus) and comes to earth at the 6th seal. In fact, John shows us His coming in chapter 19, LONG after these events at the 6th seal.

 

"...the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of do not begin until AFTER chapter 14, where God warns all to refuse the mark." What evidence do you show to support this? None.

 

"...there is no "great tribulation" found at the 6th seal." I never said there was; don't misquote me. The GT ends, as Jesus says in Matt. 24:29, just before the cataclysmic heavenly and earthy signs begin, the same ones shown in the 6th Seal. 

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

 

"The earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. ...John SAW the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter [7], right after this rapture / earthquake event." I said in my post that the raptured Church is seen in heaven in Chapter 7. I said it twice.

 

Clearly, you didn't read my post very carefully, and consider the scriptural quotes I made.

 

Actually, I read your post just fine. I just disagreed with most of it, for it does not line up with the truth of scripture. Here is why I chose to answer your post: this is what you wrote:

 

"I'll respond to one point. Why does the Rapture take place at the sixth seal? Because Jesus says in Matt. 24 that he comes for his elect "immediately after" the great tribulation, and the heavenly and earthly cataclysmic signs that follow. We see the very same cataclysms taking place at the sixth seal, Rev. 6:12-14. Then in verses 14-17, people"

 

What I see you saying here (Please correct me if I am wrong) is that you see the 6th seal as AFTER the days of great tribulation. I wanted to answer because if this is your theory, it is very wrong. First off, if you wish for proof, notice that Jesus Himself ties the days of great tribulation to AFTER the abomination event that divides the week. He further told those in Judea that see the abomination to FLEE. We see that fleeing in Rev. 12:6. This proves that the abomination event is perhaps one or two seconds before 12:6. In fact, it is in chapter 11. The 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to mark the abomination on earth.

 

In Rev. 13 we see what causes the days of great tribulation: it is the image created and the mark, then the threat of death for all who refuse to worship the image. Then to make the pressure greater, there is no buying or selling without the mark. Notice that God WARNs about the mark in Rev. 14, proving that the mark has not yet been set up or enforced. That leaves chapter 15 for the days of great tribulation, and NOT BEFORE.

 

Of course, if you find a great need to rearrange John's God given chronology, you will miss these things. Chapter 6 covers all the time from the early church to today and beyond. We are right now between the 5th seal and 6th seal.

 

I made no comment about the rest of what you said. We agree that the church was seen in heaven. I commend you on that one point. Now that you have made another post, I will comment on it:

 

Isaiah 2:10-21 also speaks of this time. Verse 19:

 

They shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, from the terror of the LORD and the glory of His majesty, when He arises to shake the earth mightily.

 

And also Rev. 1:7:

 Behold, He [Jesus] is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn/wail because of Him.

 

which brings us, conclusively, to Jesus’ words in Matthew 24:30:

 

… then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

All of these verses refer to the time of the 6th seal, when men hide themselves from the Presence/Face/Coming of the Lord, after the manifestation of heavenly and earthly cataclysms and signs.

 

I can agree with one point: The great earthquake at the 6th seal is certainly a fulfillment of the Isaiah 2 prophecy. However, Jesus does not appear then. Read your bible! Jesus does not "appear" where "every eye shall see Him" until Rev. 19,. AFTER all the seals, AFTER all the trumpets, AFTER all the vials, and after the 70th week and even AFTER the marriage and supper in heaven. He will come ONCE MORE in splender and power where every eye shall see Him, and that will be His Rev. 19 coming.  Please don't ad lib another coming at the 6th seal. He does not come then. What it really says is they are hiding from the one WHO SITS ON HIS THRONE and from the wrath of the Lamb. WHY do they say this? Simply because they recognize this great earthquake as the START of the Day of the Lord.