Marriage of the lamb

[WilliamL]

What I see you saying here (Please correct me if I am wrong) is that you see the 6th seal as AFTER the days of great tribulation. I wanted to answer because if this is your theory, it is very wrong. First off, if you wish for proof, notice that Jesus Himself ties the days of great tribulation to AFTER the abomination event that divides the week. He further told those in Judea that see the abomination to FLEE. We see that fleeing in Rev. 12:6. This proves that the abomination event is perhaps one or two seconds before 12:6. In fact, it is in chapter 11. The 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to mark the abomination on earth.

 

William's reply: one more time...Jesus said that "after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, etc." -- that is, the great heavenly and earthly signs and the shaking will take place. Those signs are exactly what we see after the 6th Seal is opened.

 

You are correct in saying that the fleeing in Rev. 12 takes place at the beginning of the GT. Rev. 12 is an interpolation that covers a lot of ground, from before the GT up through the 1260 days of Jacob's trouble: thus, it covers the whole period of the seals and the trumpets. It therefore is described separately from them.

 

As for the 7th Trumpet in Rev. 11, there is nothing in the passage that mentions or clearly implies the Abomination of Desolation.

 

[back to quote...]

 

Isaiah 2:10-21 also speaks of this time. Verse 19:

 

They shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, from the terror of the LORD and the glory of His majesty, when He arises to shake the earth mightily.

 

And also Rev. 1:7:

 Behold, He [Jesus] is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn/wail because of Him.

 

which brings us, conclusively, to Jesus’ words in Matthew 24:30:

 

… then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

All of these verses refer to the time of the 6th seal, when men hide themselves from the Presence/Face/Coming of the Lord, after the manifestation of heavenly and earthly cataclysms and signs.

 

I can agree with one point: The great earthquake at the 6th seal is certainly a fulfillment of the Isaiah 2 prophecy. However, Jesus does not appear then. Read your bible! Jesus does not "appear" where "every eye shall see Him" until Rev. 19,. AFTER all the seals, AFTER all the trumpets, AFTER all the vials, and after the 70th week and even AFTER the marriage and supper in heaven. He will come ONCE MORE in splender and power where every eye shall see Him, and that will be His Rev. 19 coming.  Please don't ad lib another coming at the 6th seal. He does not come then. What it really says is they are hiding from the one WHO SITS ON HIS THRONE and from the wrath of the Lamb. WHY do they say this? Simply because they recognize this great earthquake as the START of the Day of the Lord.

The Second Coming is a process: not an instantaneous event, but a series of (sometimes instantaneous) events. Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven for his Church/Bride at the 6th seal. This is the time of the resurrection of the dead. You admit to this in your previous post, saying, "The earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. ...John SAW the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter [7], right after this rapture / earthquake event." Correct. Nothing in chapter 7 speaks of Jesus having already defeated the nations, or that the time of his wrath has been completed, because it is still to come. Jesus removes his bride before the wrath, "for God did not appoint us to wrath." 1 Thes. 5:9

 

The wrath is fulfilled during the Trumpets and Bowls, after the Bride has been taken up. When Jesus appears in Rev. 19:11, the Bride has been shown to be already in heaven, verses 7-8. (The verbs in those verses denote already completed action, not coming action.) Thereafter, verses 11ff. tell of His physical arrival on earth to make war, and complete the period of wrath. Nothing in those verses speak of the removal of the Bride at that time of his coming, because they are already long gone.

 

The final utterance of Jesus that doomed him to death was this: "...you will see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the Power [i.e., God], and coming on the clouds of heaven." So when the men of earth say, after the 6th seal is opened, and the shaking has come, "hide us from the Face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb," it is because they are seeing them, just as Jesus witnessed to the High Priest that they would see them.

Edited November 30, 2014 by WilliamL

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Sister.

 

 Revelation 19:6   And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

  Revelation 19:7   Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

  Revelation 19:8   And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

  Revelation 19:9   And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

 

Now compare

 

Luke 12:36   And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

 

If the fact that "Luke 12:38 comes from an analogy" satisfies your dilemma, namely that it seems to contradict Revelation 19:6-9, then all well and good, but remember that there are two ways a person might return: One might return from a place on the ground to another place on the ground - a physically LATERAL move. One (Yeshua` or Jesus) might also return from a place ABOVE the ground to a place on the ground - a physically VERTICAL move.

 

Luke’s account of Yeshua`s parable is that of a LATERAL move. At no time within the parable does he suggest that Yeshua` was making it an analogy of His VERTICAL move. The point of His parable was that they were to be READY!

 

The telling of this parable occurred toward the end of the Messiah’s ministry - that is, His offer of the Kingdom to Israel - but still a long while before His death outside Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). Thus, at this stage, no one knew that He would ascend back to the Father, let alone die on a cross! To them, all they knew at this time were physically LATERAL moves!

 

Yeshua` didn’t even announce that He was returning to His Father (John 14:1-4; John 16:16, 17, 28) until the night of His last Passover seder (His Last Supper) with His disciples, although He had given them hints that He would die and be resurrected prior to that point (John 3:14; John 8:28; John 12:30-34). John 14-16 come AFTER Yeshua` warned Kefa (Peter) that he would deny Him three times (John 13:38), immediately after Yeshua` had given the “sop” to Y’hudah from Keriot (Judas Iscariot) and Y’hudah left (John 13:21-30)!

 

All that doesn’t occur in Luke’s account until Luke 22:21-34, long after Luke 12! So, while the truth was within the mind of the Messiah, He hadn’t shared it with them, yet!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Hi Enoch2021,

 

I will explain what I mean by `honestly` discussing. You have not shown -

 

1. In 1 Cor. 11: 2 when Paul is talking to his converts, how is that for all of us? Do you apply the same reasoning when Paul is talking to his converts saying that they have become arrogant concerning a sin in their midst? (1 Cor. 5: 1 & 2) They are specifics for specific people.

 

2. In Eph. 5: 31 & 32 concerning the church,  the Body as Paul told us was the definition in Eph. 1: 22 & 23. Is that definition changed? Show us please.

 

3. Are we now to `replace` Israel as the `wife / bride?` You don`t believe in replacement theory.

 

4. How are we (the Body of Christ) saved by `righteous acts?` Can you prove that? (Rev. 19: 8)

 

Enoch you require that others will prove their points but here you are just posting scriptures & NOT proving anything. I fear it is too hot in the kitchen, as the saying goes. And I believe it is the fire of the Holy Spirit. In my flesh I would have liked to have said a few choice words to you. (not swearing but sarcasm) however the Holy Spirit within me comes to the fore & I care for you bro. & desire that you be `honest` in your discussion as you expect others to be.

 

Still your friend, Marilyn.

 

You really should give Enoch a break, because you have turned the question back on yourself with point 3 above. Is all of Israel femaie to be the “wife/bride?” What about the “MALES” within Israel? Are they part of that “wife/bride of God" analogy?

 

Personally, I don’t have a problem with it at all. See, I don’t make the “church” a LABEL! It is simply a word that means a “called-out gathering” of people. Thus, I neither accept a universal (or “catholic”) body of believers, nor do I accept that the Messiah (Christ) died for an organization! The Messiah died for PEOPLE - for INDIVIDUALS - not some organization or institution! The word “church” is simply a collective noun, like “flock” of sheep, or “school” of fish, or “pride” of lions! (Actually, since the word is a participle in Greek, it’s more like our gerund than a noun, but it’s still a collective gerund.)

 

When a person makes a word out to be a LABEL, he locks in the definition, whether stated outright or implied, for that word! Therefore, a “church” can’t mean anything else! HOWEVER, I disagree with that definition for certain passages of Scripture. First of all, Acts 19 uses the word “ekkleesia” for a TOWN-meeting-turned-mob! They weren’t anything close to a “church,” per se, but they were definitely a “called-out gathering!"

 

Second, I believe that Ephesians 5 may be implying a different definition for “ekkleesia” than how it was translated:

 

Ephesians 5:21-33

21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

KJV

 

What if, as a collective noun (gerund), the word “church” refers in this case to the man-woman UNION, a called-out gathering of TWO individuals? Let’s try it: We’ll replace “church” with “man-woman UNION” throughout this passage and see how it changes the meaning:

 

Ephesians 5:21-33

21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the man-woman UNION: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the man-woman UNION is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the man-woman UNION, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious man-woman UNION, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the man-woman UNION:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the man-woman UNION.

33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

KJV

 

See what I mean? It changed the meaning of the text! Now, you may not accept this change, and that’s fine, but at least it’s given you something to think about.

 

When we give a word or words the status of being a LABEL, we are quite possibly locking in definitions that were NEVER INTENDED to be locked! There are many such examples, like “tribulation,” “abomination of desolation,” “antichrist,” and “angel,” to name a few. Let the words MEAN something within their contexts first and see if the rendering can make sense in any way other than the pat answers we’ve been given to explain a particular text.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

 

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Personally, I don’t have a problem with it at all. See, I don’t make the “church” a LABEL! It is simply a word that means a “called-out gathering” of people. Thus, I neither accept a universal (or “catholic”) body of believers, nor do I accept that the Messiah (Christ) died for an organization!

 

 

This is a very good point and recently I have been more careful when I state "The Church".  It's ripe for Equivocation (Fallacy) depending on someones viewpoint.

 

From now on I will state "The Church"/ Born Again Christians.  <---- that is what "The Church" is.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

Now you said `You should give Enoch (2021) a break…..`      He who repeatedly uses pots to hit me over the head with can stand a bit of heat in the kitchen!!!!!

Then you ask about the males within Israel. `Are they part of that `wife/bride` of God analogy?`
Israel (male & female) knew that God described His relationship with the nation of Israel as a that of a `husband.`

`For your Maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is His name.` (Isa. 54: 5)

Christ has never called His Body a bride. However He describes His relationship to the believers as `the Head of His Body.`

`And He (God) put all things under His (Christ`s) feet & gave Him to be head over all things to the ekklesia, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.` (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

`speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head – Christ – from whom the whole body, joined & knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.` (Eph. 4: 15 & 16)

`Let no one defraud you of your reward,…..& not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body nourished & knit together by joints & ligaments grows with the increase which is from God.` (Col. 2: 18 & 19)


Also when interpreting God`s word we need to use His words – eg. Ekklesia – His body (Christ`s Body, body of Christ) You made up the phrase – man-woman union- which is not what God says. Here is just a sample putting in `Body` for ekklesia.

`For the husband is the head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the BODY; & He is the Saviour of the BODY. …….
Husbands love your wives, just as Christ loved His BODY & gave Himself for IT, (not her, as some translations have.)…..
That He might present it to Himself a glorious BODY….
For we are all members of His BODY, of His flesh & of His bones…. (Eph. 4: 23 – 30)

Thus we understand from those scriptures that Christ is the Head of the Body & that husbands should love their wives with such love as Christ has for His Body.

If you think that the ekklesia are just individual believers (& not also a Body) then are you individually all `brides of Christ.` And does that then mean you will be `Queens` of heaven? And when do you, if ever, change to be `Kings & Priests?` (Rev. 1: 6) Your analogy is getting quite confusing.

Marilyn.
 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

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Now you said `You should give Enoch (2021) a break…..`      He who repeatedly uses pots to hit me over the head with can stand a bit of heat in the kitchen!!!!!

 

 

Sorry about this.....     It was the only emoticon that got close to "Pot meet Kettle".  No other intent intended.

 

 

There is no heat love, I spend a fair amount of time in forums with the Creme de la Creme of Academia (Professors of Physics/Biology/Philosophy et al) "discussing" the mysteries Quantum Entanglement, Abiogenesis, Laws of Thermodynamics, Big Bang (CMB, Inflation, TIME, ect), "Theories of Relativity", Algorithmic Cybernetic Coding and Decoding Schemes and the fairytale evolution, among others.  So this is a more like a cool breeze.

 

 

Christ has never called His Body a bride.

 

 

Except for....

 

(2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

 

and here....

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

and here....

 

(Revelation 19:7) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

This is the scripture that we are looking at –

`Let us be glad & rejoice & give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, & His wife has made herself ready. And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean & bright, for the fine linen represents the righteous acts of the saints.` (Rev. 19: 7 & 8)

Because people have not understood the purposes of God for the 3 groups – the Body of Christ, Israel & the nations, - they tend to read God`s word as all about us. However this, I believe has led to much confusion. For example people read this scripture as about the Body of Christ, saints, whereas many people pre-cross are also called – the saints. Thus we need to accurately handle the word of truth.

So my questions to you, are –

1. When was the Body of Christ called the `wife` prior to this scripture?

2. Can you use scripture to explain what these `righteous acts` are?

Marilyn.




 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C., Enoch2021, and inchrist.

 

First, allow me to say, Marilyn, that I was only playing “devil’s advocate” when I told you to lighten up on Enoch. See, there was an apparent duplicity to putting up a fuss about calling the “church” the “bride of Christ” and yet allowing the nation “Israel” to be called the “wife of God.” That’s all to which I was referring.

 

Actually, I believe that the New Jerusalem, that is, the physical city itself, is “prepared AS a bride” (simile) and IS “the bride, the Lamb’s wife” (metaphor). It was the CITY that looked all decked out as a bride on her wedding day, not the “people within,” as some have claimed he meant (which he did NOT say).

 

As far as Ephesians 5:31-32 go, I’m still leaning toward my explanation above in post #23.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,
 
Thanks for that explanation, but I couldn`t resist posting my favourite emotive picture which I hadn`t before. `Devil`s advocate,` ay well there you are, Enoch.

 

 

Now you said -

`Actually, I believe that the New Jerusalem, that is, the physical city itself, is “prepared AS a bride” (simile) and IS “the bride, the Lamb’s wife” (metaphor). It was the CITY that looked all decked out as a bride on her wedding day, not the “people within,” as some have claimed he meant (which he did NOT say).`

 

I agree that the New Jerusalem is `prepared as a bride adorned for her husband,` (Rev. 21: 2) as God`s word tells us. This we can see is part of God`s eternal purposes. The `bride` is a symbol of God joining with His people in that realm.

 

The `wife` of Rev. 19: 7 however is a time purpose of God that was promised to Israel. God called Himself their husband & they His bride. he later divorced them & thus we see this marriage is a symbol of God again reuniting with Israel when Christ comes to deliver them.

 

The term `bride` is just a symbol which God uses to show His purposes. To use this symbol for the Body of Christ is a complete disregard of Christ`s teaching concerning His Body. There is NO body of teaching showing this doctrine just a couple of verses that people have twisted.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Enoch2021]

Hi Retrobyter,

 

Thanks for that explanation, but I couldn`t resist posting my favourite emotive picture which I hadn`t before. `Devil`s advocate,` ay well there you are, Enoch.

Now you said -

 

`Actually, I believe that the New Jerusalem, that is, the physical city itself, is “prepared AS a bride” (simile) and IS “the bride, the Lamb’s wife” (metaphor). It was the CITY that looked all decked out as a bride on her wedding day, not the “people within,” as some have claimed he meant (which he did NOT say).`

 

I agree that the New Jerusalem is `prepared as a bride adorned for her husband,` (Rev. 21: 2) as God`s word tells us. This we can see is part of God`s eternal purposes. The `bride` is a symbol of God joining with His people in that realm.

 

The `wife` of Rev. 19: 7 however is a time purpose of God that was promised to Israel. God called Himself their husband & they His bride. he later divorced them & thus we see this marriage is a symbol of God again reuniting with Israel when Christ comes to deliver them.

 

The term `bride` is just a symbol which God uses to show His purposes. To use this symbol for the Body of Christ is a complete disregard of Christ`s teaching concerning His Body. There is NO body of teaching showing this doctrine just a couple of verses that people have twisted.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

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The term `bride` is just a symbol which God uses to show His purposes. To use this symbol for the Body of Christ is a complete disregard of Christ`s teaching concerning His Body. There is NO body of teaching showing this doctrine just a couple of verses that people have twisted.

 

 

Yea sure, Baloney doesn't do this justice.  Look up "Willful Ignorance".  When I'm walking past an elevator with my kids, I don't bust out the Tech Manual describing the: Physics, Mechanisms of Action, and the Suite of Safety Devices;  I just say "hey, an elevator", they raise an eyebrow in unison and say "duh"..... and we move on to the indoor pool.

 

Revelation 19:7 the "Marriage Supper" of the Lamb, has about as much to do with Israel as the Seattle Seahawk's Practice Schedule does with the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation.

 

The "city" as "the bride" ??  To be honest, I really don't know what to say to that , maybe this would be close to the zip code...     

 

 

Because people have not understood the purposes of God for the 3 groups – the Body of Christ, Israel & the nations, - they tend to read God`s word as all about us.

 

 

Strawman (Fallacy).  Red Herring (Fallacy).  And a Sweeping Generalized Unsupported Assertion (Fallacy).  The Triple Crown in One Sentence!  Kudos 

 

 

 

(Revelation 19:7-8) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

 

So my questions to you, are –

 

1. When was the Body of Christ called the `wife` prior to this scripture?

 

2. Can you use scripture to explain what these `righteous acts` are?

 

 

 

1.  (2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

and here....

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

 

2.  This is Tantamount and affords the same relevance to the subject as.....

 

"Marilyn close the door and roll up the window, Cujo is coming!!"

 

..... then you being overly preoccupied with the Make/Model/Brand of his collar.