The Structure of Revelation 6-19

[WilliamL]

 

If the prince of Rome is currently in the Abyss, then how and when did he get there? No biblical or apocryphal evidence for this.

 

 

By inference of this passage:

 

  Rev 17:8

 

the "when" was sometime before John wrote Revelation.

 

My guess on the "how" is that he was strong-armed into it.  It doesn't seem to be a place that evil spirit beings like going to willingly.

 

And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion”; for many demons had entered him.  They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss.  Luke 8:30-31

 

I'm not so sure that the prince of Rome is still confined to the abyss.  The part of Rev 17:8 that says "is about to come up out of the abyss" may have already happened.

 

A lot of speculation without tangible scriptural support.  The power of Rome was at its height when John wrote Revelation, which would not be the case if its spiritual leader had already been cast into the Abyss. Your arguments quite frankly rely on a form of circular reasoning, wherein you are presuming your conclusion first, then shaping your understanding of biblical passages to fit your conclusion.

 

In contrast, at the time of John, the saying “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss and go to destruction" could very well apply to Azazel and the other angels cast into the Abyss at the time of the Flood. They were not present on earth at the time of John, but will ascend out of the Abyss when it is opened at the 5th Trumpet. Thus Revelation, Jude, 2 Peter, and Genesis 6 agree perfectly with the account told in the Book of Enoch of the fall, imprisonment in the Abyss, and prophesied arising of the fallen angels in the End Times, and their going into an eternal destruction of fire. Which is to say, the scriptures provide the foundation for the conclusion, not the other way around.

[Last Daze]

 

 

If the prince of Rome is currently in the Abyss, then how and when did he get there? No biblical or apocryphal evidence for this.

 

 

By inference of this passage:

 

  Rev 17:8

 

the "when" was sometime before John wrote Revelation.

 

My guess on the "how" is that he was strong-armed into it.  It doesn't seem to be a place that evil spirit beings like going to willingly.

 

And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion”; for many demons had entered him.  They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss.  Luke 8:30-31

 

I'm not so sure that the prince of Rome is still confined to the abyss.  The part of Rev 17:8 that says "is about to come up out of the abyss" may have already happened.

 

A lot of speculation without tangible scriptural support.  The power of Rome was at its height when John wrote Revelation, which would not be the case if its spiritual leader had already been cast into the Abyss. Your arguments quite frankly rely on a form of circular reasoning, wherein you are presuming your conclusion first, then shaping your understanding of biblical passages to fit your conclusion.

 

In contrast, at the time of John, the saying “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss and go to destruction" could very well apply to Azazel and the other angels cast into the Abyss at the time of the Flood. They were not present on earth at the time of John, but will ascend out of the Abyss when it is opened at the 5th Trumpet. Thus Revelation, Jude, 2 Peter, and Genesis 6 agree perfectly with the account told in the Book of Enoch of the fall, imprisonment in the Abyss, and prophesied arising of the fallen angels in the End Times, and their going into an eternal destruction of fire. Which is to say, the scriptures provide the foundation for the conclusion, not the other way around.

 

 

I don't think its circular at all knowing that the fourth kingdom of the great statue isn't finished, and given the fact that fallen angels influence certain kingdoms.  Pretty clear to me.

 

Regardless, "all the deception of wickedness" is how the false prophet is described.  They'll all be there doing something or another.

[WilliamL]

 

... the fourth kingdom of the great statue isn't finished, and given the fact that fallen angels influence certain kingdoms.

Agree with you here. That old spirit of Rome is still around and dominating the earth, the head which had "the [seemingly] mortal wound [in 476 AD] but was healed" (Rev. 13:3). But he/it is coming to be on his/its last toes, so to speak, and is about to come to an end. Islam, Russia, China, and many other nations are fed up with Anglo-European dominance, and are pushing back more strongly every year.

Edited November 23, 2014 by WilliamL

[Serving]

Hi Daze,

 

 

The hour of judgment that I believe is being referred to there in Rev 14 is the hour when the ten kings destroy the world's capital per Rev 17.

 

And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled. The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”  Rev 17:16-18

 

 

I believe that you have confused the harlot metaphor for a single world capitol .. she is a mystery after all .. and brother, she is not what you are thinking she is ..

 

Note: The heads of the 7 headed beast are the empires remember .. the harlot is not one of the heads /empires, but instead sits on the beast .. thus, being separate of the carnal beast (for she is spiritually sourced from Satan) .. she instead works through the beast / empires .. so this already goes against her being a world capitol as you stated.

 

Also, she's been around for a long time now .. remember the woman in the basket set up in Babylon of old?

 

This event, in part (she has several sub dimensions to each of her dual meanings) , is the rules being established whereby nations abide by ..

 

Babylon the great is not a world capitol, but is the entire world kingdom under Satan .. generalized as a city .. just like God calls spiritual Zion His city.

 

The harlot stands for dual meaning and is easily confused by Gods generalizations (rev ch 17 & ch 18) unless that mystery is understood.

 

So when the entire world's cities fall, Babylon the great that is .. it is in this hour that judgment has come, like I said .. this is the hour where the Lord takes direct control over the earth ..

 

And what does Isaiah say?

 

Isaiah 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

 

No city on earth could stand after this .. and what does this correlate with?

 

Revelation 16:18  And there were voices, and thunders, and lightning's; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

 

Now pay close attention please ..

 

Revelation 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell : (CITIES = plural .. of the .. NATIONS = plural .. FELL .. and Babylon the great? ..

 

continue >>

 

..and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. (speaking past tense as God often does throughout the OT prophecies)

 

See?

 

How can God punish Babylon the great AFTER EVERY CITY ON EARTH IS ALREADY DESTROYED in a massive unprecedented earthquake Isaiah describes as the world reeling to and fro??

 

Friend, Babylon the great, if it were a world capitol, would be destroyed too!!

 

Thus, God describing ALL THE WORLDS CITIES AS DESTROYED .. must therefore mean that ALL THE WORLDS CITIES ARE BABYLON THE GREAT !! ..

 

But according to your interpretation, Babylon the great should already be destroyed by this stage at the hands of the 10 kings!! .. But clearly she is not!!

 

So there is a confliction in your interpretation I am afraid.

 

 

 

Look at what is said after Babylon the city is destroyed:

 

I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; Rev 18:4

 

Its a little late at that point to warn people to come out of a destroyed city.  The destruction of Babylon as I see it is two-fold; first, the city, and then, all ungodliness with all of its manifestations on the day of the Lord.  The warning is to separate from the pervasive ungodliness, which includes refusing to worship the false prophet, so as to not receive the plagues when they start.

 

 

The "Come out of her" statement was a break from the vision and meant for all following generations since Johns days .. sound counsel ..

 

Do you remember what Paul said?

 

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

 

God is meaning walk in the spirit of God, not in the spirit of the world (Babylon) ..

  

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

 

Otherwise we'd have to literally come out of the world!!

 

Thus .. come out of Babylon the great by not being of Babylon the great spiritually.

 

That's why I see that particular hour of judgment at the second seal.  It kicks off the wars and rumors of war.  There's a difference between judgment and the wrath of the seven plague angels.

 

 

 

There is only one hour of judgement friend ..

 

The trumpets & vials are the culminating wrath against all who have the mark of the beast .. the destruction of Babylon the great (Satan's world empire) is the day of wrath which is the hour of judgement .. this final judgment being the climax to the culminating wrath of the trumpets & vials.

 

So you see .. there is a problem in this interpretation being sound .. in my opinion, just some tweaking is needed .. especially the beasts being fallen angels (previously mentioned elsewhere) which I perceive could be hindering you somewhat. 

 

God bless.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Serving

[lavey.online]

I agree ...

 

The incidents explained in Revelation  6 to 11 is repeated on 12 to 19 chapters. The reason is this ...

 

Chapters 6 to 11 explains the things in the context of Israelite.

Chapters 12 to 19 explains the same things in the context of Gentiles.

 

Israelite cannot understand the scriptures in the way the other parts of the world do. That's why John explained everything in two ways.

[Salty]

Hi Daze,

 

 

The hour of judgment that I believe is being referred to there in Rev 14 is the hour when the ten kings destroy the world's capital per Rev 17.

 

And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled. The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”  Rev 17:16-18

 

 

I believe that you have confused the harlot metaphor for a single world capitol .. she is a mystery after all .. and brother, she is not what you are thinking she is ..

 

Note: The heads of the 7 headed beast are the empires remember .. the harlot is not one of the heads /empires, but instead sits on the beast .. thus, being separate of the carnal beast (for she is spiritually sourced from Satan) .. she instead works through the beast / empires .. so this already goes against her being a world capitol as you stated.

 

Also, she's been around for a long time now .. remember the woman in the basket set up in Babylon of old?

 

This event, in part (she has several sub dimensions to each of her dual meanings) , is the rules being established whereby nations abide by ..

 

Babylon the great is not a world capitol, but is the entire world kingdom under Satan .. generalized as a city .. just like God calls spiritual Zion His city.

 

The harlot stands for dual meaning and is easily confused by Gods generalizations (rev ch 17 & ch 18) unless that mystery is understood.

 

So when the entire world's cities fall, Babylon the great that is .. it is in this hour that judgment has come, like I said .. this is the hour where the Lord takes direct control over the earth ..

 

And what does Isaiah say?

 

Isaiah 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

 

No city on earth could stand after this .. and what does this correlate with?

 

Revelation 16:18  And there were voices, and thunders, and lightning's; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

 

Now pay close attention please ..

 

Revelation 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell : (CITIES = plural .. of the .. NATIONS = plural .. FELL .. and Babylon the great? ..

 

continue >>

 

..and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. (speaking past tense as God often does throughout the OT prophecies)

 

See?

 

How can God punish Babylon the great AFTER EVERY CITY ON EARTH IS ALREADY DESTROYED in a massive unprecedented earthquake Isaiah describes as the world reeling to and fro??

 

Friend, Babylon the great, if it were a world capitol, would be destroyed too!!

 

Thus, God describing ALL THE WORLDS CITIES AS DESTROYED .. must therefore mean that ALL THE WORLDS CITIES ARE BABYLON THE GREAT !! ..

 

But according to your interpretation, Babylon the great should already be destroyed by this stage at the hands of the 10 kings!! .. But clearly she is not!!

 

So there is a confliction in your interpretation I am afraid.

 

 

 

Look at what is said after Babylon the city is destroyed:

 

I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; Rev 18:4

 

Its a little late at that point to warn people to come out of a destroyed city.  The destruction of Babylon as I see it is two-fold; first, the city, and then, all ungodliness with all of its manifestations on the day of the Lord.  The warning is to separate from the pervasive ungodliness, which includes refusing to worship the false prophet, so as to not receive the plagues when they start.

 

 

The "Come out of her" statement was a break from the vision and meant for all following generations since Johns days .. sound counsel ..

 

Do you remember what Paul said?

 

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

 

God is meaning walk in the spirit of God, not in the spirit of the world (Babylon) ..

  

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

 

Otherwise we'd have to literally come out of the world!!

 

Thus .. come out of Babylon the great by not being of Babylon the great spiritually.

 

That's why I see that particular hour of judgment at the second seal.  It kicks off the wars and rumors of war.  There's a difference between judgment and the wrath of the seven plague angels.

 

 

 

There is only one hour of judgement friend ..

 

The trumpets & vials are the culminating wrath against all who have the mark of the beast .. the destruction of Babylon the great (Satan's world empire) is the day of wrath which is the hour of judgement .. this final judgment being the climax to the culminating wrath of the trumpets & vials.

 

So you see .. there is a problem in this interpretation being sound .. in my opinion, just some tweaking is needed .. especially the beasts being fallen angels (previously mentioned elsewhere) which I perceive could be hindering you somewhat. 

 

God bless.

 

Looks like you've forgotten about Ezekiel 16.