Christian perfection

[Wildstar]

 

 

 

But don't fall into the self-righteous trap of thinking you are perfectly sinless.  The ONLY person who can lay claim to that is Jesus.

^  how is that self righteous to believe god took away your sin?

There is a difference between believing that Jesus bore the penalty of our sin on the cross and believing that we are perfectly sinless.   Jesus is the only Person whoever had the ability to fully please God with works of righteousness.

 

Jesus did not take away your sin nature.   Jesus satisfied God's justice against sin.   Jesus made it possible for us sinners to be in right standing with God.    We are perfected objectively through the blood of Jesus (Heb. 10).  We stand before perfected through the work of Christ on the cross.   But we still have a struggle against our sin nature, what Paul calls "the flesh."  

 

God has only one standard perfection:  Himself.   He is the standard of perfection.  For me to claim that I am perfectly sinless means I have to meet that divine standard and that means I have to measure myself against the Lord.  None of us reach the place where we are perfectly flawless/sinless because that would put us on God's level and that takes us into heresy.

 

Jesus never takes away our flesh, that's true.  But I can't agree with the rest since I believe being sinless is mandatory for a Christian

 

From an objective standpoint, we are sinless in that the part of us that is born of God, the part of us that goes to heaven when we die, doesn't sin. 

 

There is no commandment in the Bible that makes being a Christian conditional on living a perfect, sinless life.  Our perfection is in founded in Christ, not in our own efforts.   You can't live up to God's standard of perfection.   God makes you sinless; you don't make yourself sinless through the strength of your will or your works.

 

If you think you are capable of being perfect to the same degree that God is perfect (which is the only standard of perfect the Bible states that God accepts) you are sorely mistaken. 

 

That's what I mean.  We are sinless through faith in Christ.  But our flesh will sin till the day we die.  But that doesn't nullify his work.  Umm!

[Guest shiloh357]

That's what I mean.  We are sinless through faith in Christ.  But our flesh will sin till the day we die.  But that doesn't nullify his work.  Umm!

 

Yes, and that's what I am saying.  Mr. Nice and Almightyist are claiming that if you are truly saved, you will not commit a single sin until you die.  They are claiming that salvation depends on you not committing even a single sin.

[Joshua-777]

 

 

No, he doesn't, not at all.   In Jewish theology, "good and evil" are co-workers in the will of God.   We are born with a good and evil "inclination" in Jewish theology.  In Jewish theology, Satan is a servant of God with a role to fulfill that God has assigned him.  They don't have the same view of sin and the flesh that we have.   You really don't know much about Jewish theology, apparently.

No, the first part is about the struggle to keep the law, the second part is about the struggle against the flesh.   The first part is Paul's struggle as an unbeliever.   The struggle against the flesh makes no sense if we are not talking about Paul as a believer.  Nonbelievers don't struggle against the flesh.   The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death.  The Bible nowhere claims that we will never, ever commit a single sin.  That is not what is meant at all.  It simply means that we are set from the condemnation that our sin brings upon us.

Again the flaw in your theology is the assumption that "overcoming the flesh" means that you will never, ever commit a single sin.   If that were the case, you end up putting everyone under condemnation who is a believer who hasn't lived a perfect life since they were saved.  You also run the risk of measuring yourself against other people by considering anyone who doesn't live as sinless (as you think) you do, as someone who hasn't overcome sin.  It  runs the risk of creating a judgmental spirit.

 

Paul, being under the law knows what it is like to live under the law. Trying to follow the law, he found another law inside himself the law of sin. Sin took advantage of the law. Romans 6:13-20, Paul is still talking about the context of the law and how the law was week because of sin in him.

Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin

The law itself cannot save us from sin. But what the law couldn't do, God did by sending His own son. Paul knew what sin was because he was under the law, the law revealed sin. If flesh wasn't an issue for him then he would have fulfilled this law without falling short. He came to the realization he could not do the law because of sin in him. Sin produced evil desire inside of him as he tried following the law.

Romans 7:1 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire.

The law doesn't save us from sin, Jesus does. We're under a better covenant.

2 Corinthians 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit, for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Glory of the New Covenant

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.

 

Unbelievers don't struggle with the flesh, they don't have a Spirit that wars against the lusts of the flesh.  That is a uniquely Christian experience that is not part of any other religious ideology.

 

I find it interesting that many religions try to obtain righteousness by works and they are in constant fear because they fall short of their own standards. I've seen this witnessing to Muslims, Hindus, Mormons,etc. They don't have the Spirit to empower them against the flesh. Unbelievers more than struggle against the flesh, they are ruled by it and dominated by it. Imagine a Christian who is trying to do all the things the bible says but has no real relationship with God and doesn't have the Spirit. You cannot follow God without the Spirit. I'm finding that many non-believers are completely convicted about their sins and wrong doings, some even to the point of suicide because they don't know the price Jesus paid. I remember a gang member that I came across, he did some messed up stuff and was contemplating suicide because of the condemnation and guilt he felt. We were out witnessing and my friend had a vision of a graveyard, so we went to the grave yard and found him. We shared the Gospel with him, and he started crying when he could be forgiven. What blew my mind was he had no grid for Christianity, no background in Christianity, but felt the guilt of sin. He gave his life to the Lord, left that gang and now attends prayer meetings every week last I heard.

 

I am not saying that the flesh is more powerful the God himself.   I am saying that nowhere in the Bible is there any promise or anticipation that we will never, ever sin after we are saved.   We live in victory over sin, but nowhere is "victory over sin"  every defined as living, in terms of practical Christian living, without every committing a single sin the for the rest of your life after salvation.

Joshua, I don't mean this in bad way, but you may not be quite understanding what this thread is about.   Mr. Nice and other are arguing that we are expected and that our salvation is conditional upon not committing a single sin after you are born again.   He is advocating that if you sin, even one time, after you got saved, you are immediately lost and if you commit a single and die before having the chance to confess/repent of that single sin, you will go to hell.   Mr. Nice makes no distinction between a person who occasionally stumbles in a sincere attempt to serve God vs. someone who claims to be a Christian but lives in habitual sin.

So, I am not going to respond to the rest of your post until I seek some clarification as to whether you are of that opinion as well.   Do you believe that if a Christian commits a single sin that they are immediately lost and have to get re-saved as Mr. Nice is claiming??

 

I believe that our salvation is dependent on a relationship with Him. Jesus paid for all our sins, past, present, and future. In Him we are born again, a new creation, a new man created in righteousness and holiness, citizens of Zion, and our spirits are made perfect and joined with the Holy Spirit. This is not something we can do, but it's His work in us. If we do sin, we are living below our new nature and do not yet know who we are in Him.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

I don't believe that we are saved, lost, re-saved, lost, and re-saved again based on every time we commit sin and repent. I believe when we are born again, a new creation born of the Spirit, but our soul (Mind, will, and emotions) are still wired to the old creation. The old man is dead, we just still think like Him, have emotional attachments to him, etc... Our minds need renewed. Who we are born again, is who we truly are, who God created us to be. Our minds need renewed to who we are in Him and the life we lived that fell short of the glory, we are no longer bound to.

Jesus said it is finished. He gave me His righteousness, and I'm in the process of learning to walk it out. I've been a believer for 11 years, and the Lord has never left me, even when I've stumbled in sin. My salvation is dependent on Him, not my own actions. I don't work to become righteous, I work because He made me righteous.

I was responding to the OP,

 

Can a Christian, who believes in all the promises of God and the He who is in him is greater than he who is in the world, live the rest of his days blameless and fully sanctfied?

 

Yes I believe we can walk blameless and we are fully sanctified because Christ is our sanctification. I believe that we can walk with the Lord in such a way that we know nothing against ourselves and our conscience is perfect before the Lord. We can walk with the Lord without sinning because Christ lives in us and His grace empowers us to follow after Him. We don't have to sin anymore. We can live according to the Spirit and out to death the deeds of the flesh. Victory over sin? We already have it, Jesus! We are now in the process of walking out His victory.

Can a believer stumble and still be saved? Yes.

Does a believer have to stumble? no.

Can a believer walk without stumbling? yes.

There is no sin that Jesus lacks the power to help us overcome.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

.

I was responding to the OP,

 

Can a Christian, who believes in all the promises of God and the He who is in him is greater than he who is in the world, live the rest of his days blameless and fully sanctfied?

 

 

I get that.   But I don't think you understood what the OP was ultimately talking about.   The OP believes that if you commit one sin you are lost and have to be re-saved.   THAT is what he and I are debating.

 

I think you are trying to have a different discussion.   His argument is not simply that it is possible to live without sinning.  His argument is that you MUST not sin after salvation and that one sin is enough to put salvation in jeopardy and you need to get re-saved.   Furthermore, he argues that if you commit a sin and die before repenting of that sin, you will go to hell.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

No, he doesn't, not at all.   In Jewish theology, "good and evil" are co-workers in the will of God.   We are born with a good and evil "inclination" in Jewish theology.  In Jewish theology, Satan is a servant of God with a role to fulfill that God has assigned him.  They don't have the same view of sin and the flesh that we have.   You really don't know much about Jewish theology, apparently.

No, the first part is about the struggle to keep the law, the second part is about the struggle against the flesh.   The first part is Paul's struggle as an unbeliever.   The struggle against the flesh makes no sense if we are not talking about Paul as a believer.  Nonbelievers don't struggle against the flesh.   The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death.  The Bible nowhere claims that we will never, ever commit a single sin.  That is not what is meant at all.  It simply means that we are set from the condemnation that our sin brings upon us.

Again the flaw in your theology is the assumption that "overcoming the flesh" means that you will never, ever commit a single sin.   If that were the case, you end up putting everyone under condemnation who is a believer who hasn't lived a perfect life since they were saved.  You also run the risk of measuring yourself against other people by considering anyone who doesn't live as sinless (as you think) you do, as someone who hasn't overcome sin.  It  runs the risk of creating a judgmental spirit.

 

Paul, being under the law knows what it is like to live under the law. Trying to follow the law, he found another law inside himself the law of sin. Sin took advantage of the law. Romans 6:13-20, Paul is still talking about the context of the law and how the law was week because of sin in him.

 

Joshua, Torah observant Jewish people don't struggle with the flesh, at least you seem to think.  Jewish people struggle with what is known as "halacha."  They struggle with making sure that they have all the lights on timers before the Sabbath,  their big sin is something like not getting Sabbath candles lit at exactly 18 minutes before sundown.

 

Jewish people struggle with things like not walking more than six feet without their head covered and stuff.  What they define as "sin" and what you and I would see as "sin" are necessarily the same thing.  They are not trying to keep the law.  They striving to keep rabbinic regulations that are extra to keeping the law.

 

They don't believe they are fallen sinners with a sin nature or "flesh" as Paul calls it.  It is a completely different mindset that perhaps what you are familiar with.  What they struggle with is making sure they don't meat and milk within 30 minutes of each other.   

 

I find it interesting that many religions try to obtain righteousness by works and they are in constant fear because they fall short of their own standards.

 

Yes, but that is not the same as the struggle against the flesh that Paul is speaking of in Rom. 7:14-25.

 

I'm finding that many non-believers are completely convicted about their sins and wrong doings, some even to the point of suicide because they don't know the price Jesus paid. I remember a gang member that I came across, he did some messed up stuff and was contemplating suicide because of the condemnation and guilt he felt.

 

I get that.  But that is not a struggle with the flesh.  There is a marked difference between a person who feels the conviction of the Holy Spirit and what Paul references in the Scripture I mentioned above.

 

 

I don't believe that we are saved, lost, re-saved, lost, and re-saved again based on every time we commit sin and repent. I believe when we are born again, a new creation born of the Spirit, but our soul (Mind, will, and emotions) are still wired to the old creation. The old man is dead, we just still think like Him, have emotional attachments to him, etc... Our minds need renewed. Who we are born again, is who we truly are, who God created us to be. Our minds need renewed to who we are in Him and the life we lived that fell short of the glory, we are no longer bound to.

Jesus said it is finished. He gave me His righteousness, and I'm in the process of learning to walk it out. I've been a believer for 11 years, and the Lord has never left me, even when I've stumbled in sin. My salvation is dependent on Him, not my own actions. I don't work to become righteous, I work because He made me righteous.

 

I agree.  You and I probably are probably closer in agreement than myself and the OP.

[Wildstar]

 

 

.

I was responding to the OP,

 

Can a Christian, who believes in all the promises of God and the He who is in him is greater than he who is in the world, live the rest of his days blameless and fully sanctfied?

 

 

I get that.   But I don't you understood what the OP was ultimately talking about.   The OP believes that if you commit one sin you are lost and have to be re-saved.   THAT is what he and I are debating.

 

I think you are trying to have a different discussion.   His argument is not simply that it is possible to live without sinning.  His argument is that you MUST not sin after salvation and that one sin is enough to put salvation in jeopardy and you need to get re-saved.   Furthermore, he argues that if you commit a sin and die before repenting of that sin, you will go to hell.

 

In that case I would refer him to 1 John 2:1 when it says "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. " explaining that we are to NOT sin... but IF we sin he speaks on our behalf (Jesus only speaks on behalf of those who are HIS).  Then show him the washing feet verse John 13:10 "Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”"  Showing that we need to wash our feet daily but remain completely clean / sinless.  I am not implying that we become sinners again and I neither believe in praying for forgiveness of sins but I do believe that we need to ruminate on his gospel at times. 

[almightyist]

That's what I mean. We are sinless through faith in Christ. But our flesh will sin till the day we die. But that doesn't nullify his work. Umm!

Yes, and that's what I am saying. Mr. Nice and Almightyist are claiming that if you are truly saved, you will not commit a single sin until you die. They are claiming that salvation depends on you not committing even a single sin.

You should not commit a single sin...not will not..

Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be djone away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”

Galatians 5:24-25 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Galatians 2:20-21 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

My old self crucified with Christ

Reborn new self....clean slate washed in blood of Jesus.

Now Jesus inside with me ..guiding me ..giving me strength

Jesus is grace ....now inside me.

I have no desire to sin, because I love JESUS Christ.

Not because I have too...because I want too.

If I have a weak moment and sin. I repent. I repent everyday in the Lord's Prayer. I know I am always covered.

The cross I carry daily. The Helper, the Holy Spirit, helps me crucify (Kill) all sin in my life. Get rid of it. With the Holy Spirit I'm able to identify situations, people, etc. that want to knock me off the straight and narrow walk into eternity.

You call it self works...JESUS calls it obedience.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Everybody stands in front of Almighty God. And will be judged for what they have done in their body. A reborn Christian would have no excuse for not being prepared. JESUS explained the consequences of sin. I have no desire to recrucify Jesus.

BE HOLY

2 Corinthians 6:14-18 2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:“I will dwell in themAnd walk among them.I will be their God,And they shall be My people.” Therefore“Come out from among themAnd be separate, says the Lord.Do not touch what is unclean,And I will receive you.” “I will be a Father to you,And you shall be My sons and daughters,Says the Lord Almighty.”

Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Practicing lawlessness is a son of satan or disobedience .

I love my new man. Jesus is great. I don't even think about sin. I focus on my life with the Holy Spirit.

Being obedient to Jesus is easy...the difficult part of the journey is the enemy...they are jealous and determined to knock you off the straight and narrow...they don't want you to have it all...just like a lot of people...as a Child of God...I have authority over all of them...and over sin..

.I'm just determined with God to keep sin out my life....I don't know why that bothers anybody...

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit....is a very, very, very bad thing..

1 Peter 2:21-25 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:

“Who committed no sin,Nor was deceit found in His mouth”;

who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

John 14:12-14 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

Edited January 9, 2015 by almightyist

[Joshua-777]

Joshua, Torah observant Jewish people don't struggle with the flesh, at least you seem to think.  Jewish people struggle with what is known as "halacha."  They struggle with making sure that they have all the lights on timers before the Sabbath,  their big sin is something like not getting Sabbath candles lit at exactly 18 minutes before sundown.

Jewish people struggle with things like not walking more than six feet without their head covered and stuff.  What they define as "sin" and what you and I would see as "sin" are necessarily the same thing.  They are not trying to keep the law.  They striving to keep rabbinic regulations that are extra to keeping the law.

They don't believe they are fallen sinners with a sin nature or "flesh" as Paul calls it.  It is a completely different mindset that perhaps what you are familiar with.  What they struggle with is making sure they don't meat and milk within 30 minutes of each other.

 

Now that alot of that confusion is out of the way. I do disagree with your assessment on what the Jews of that day believed and the Romans 7 man. The law which Paul thought was to bring life only brought condemnation. Paul was a devout Jew who delighted in the law. A believer is not under the law.  When Paul was talking about the sin in himself, he was referring to being under the law and not being able to keep it because the sin in Him took advantage of the law.

Romans 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

We now have His Spirit and can follow Him under the law of the Spirit of life. What the law, "Commandments," couldn't  do, 'deal with our sin,' God did by sending our own Son. In Christ we are free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

What is the law of sin and death?

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.

The sin that took advantage of the law producing evil desire in us. We are free from that. We no longer have to live bound to it.

You said the Jews had a difference of opinion of sin, but the sacrifices were a reminder of sin. They knew what sin was because of the law, and sacrifices were made year after year reminding them that they missed it.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

Paul knew what sin was because of the law, and realized the law lacked what he needed to keep it.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

To say that the Romans 7 man is a believer struggling with the flesh is to say that we are under the law, but we are not. The Romans 7 man was under the law. We died to the law so we can be married to Christ.

Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Do you see what that passage is talking about? We become dead to the law to be married to Christ so we can bear fruit to God. It says, "When we were in the flesh" pointing back to being under the law. But now we've been delivered from the law so we can serve in the newness of the Spirit! The Spirit produces fruit to God.

Again, Paul says, we are not under the law. The flesh and the Spirit are contrary to one another.

Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

When we come to Christ the flesh is crucified with Him and it's desires.

Galatians 5:24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires

Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Such a glorious Gospel! That the blood of Jesus frees me from who I was. That old man is dead, there is no resurrecting him. A big issue is when we try to make the old man look like Jesus instead of letting him go.

Colossians 3:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord

Colossians 3:1 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

Colossians 1:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God

Colossians 3:22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Here is where we differ in our theology. I believe I am who God says I am, that the Born again me is the real me, the old man is dead, who I was in the flesh, now I need to renew my mind to the reality of Christ and put off the residue of the former life. If I sin, that is not who I am, I'm acting out of character to who I really am in Christ. God made me righteous so that righteousness can manifest through my life and now I am free to fully follow the Lord with everything we are.

You believe, please correct me if I'm wrong, that you are born again, and your spirit doesn't sin, but you have an evil in your body that will always be driven to sin and are waiting for Jesus to return to give you a new nature with a new body. If you sin, that's just because your a sinner whose saved by the mercy of God. God legally says your righteous but your not really righteous because we lack the ability to fully follow after God because of the sin that dwells in us.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Joshua, Torah observant Jewish people don't struggle with the flesh, at least you seem to think.  Jewish people struggle with what is known as "halacha."  They struggle with making sure that they have all the lights on timers before the Sabbath,  their big sin is something like not getting Sabbath candles lit at exactly 18 minutes before sundown.

Jewish people struggle with things like not walking more than six feet without their head covered and stuff.  What they define as "sin" and what you and I would see as "sin" are necessarily the same thing.  They are not trying to keep the law.  They striving to keep rabbinic regulations that are extra to keeping the law.

They don't believe they are fallen sinners with a sin nature or "flesh" as Paul calls it.  It is a completely different mindset that perhaps what you are familiar with.  What they struggle with is making sure they don't meat and milk within 30 minutes of each other.

 

Now that alot of that confusion is out of the way. I do disagree with your assessment on what the Jews believe and the Romans 7 man. The law which Paul thought was to bring life only brought condemnation. A believer is not under the law.  When Paul was talking about the sin in himself, he was referring to being under the law and not able to keep it.

 

You're only making my point, though Joshua.   Jewish people don't see the the Law as a burden.  They don't see it as an instrument of death.   Paul was the most zealous among his people when before he was born again.   He was almost a sage.  He was a top pupil and would have gone down in history as one of Judaism's greatest Rabbis had he not been saved.

 

Joshua, Romans 7 has two different subject matters that Paul carefully delineates.   In vv. 1-13 Paul is talking about the law and his references are past tense.  That was part of his pre-born again life as a Torah observant Jew.    But if you would pay careful attention to vv. 14-25  Paul switches to the present tense.  He is no longer talking about the past.   You seem to be ignoring that simply grammatical cue because it doesn't jive with what you want to the passage to say.    Paul had a struggle, an inner war with the flesh and he says so.   It is simply not possible given the grammatical structure for it to be about his past struggle with the flesh because by his accounting of himself prior to salvation in Philippians 3 he wasn't strugging at all.  If anything he was ahead of everyone else and zealous above his peers.   

 

The present tense of Rom. 7:14-25 simply torpedoes your argument that it was a struggle with his flesh prior to being born again. 

 

You said the Jews had a difference of opinion of sin, but the sacrifices were a reminder of sin. They knew what sin was because of the law, and sacrifices were made year after year reminding them that they missed it.

 

What I am saying is that Jews don't see themselves as sinners, per se.   Jewish theology in the days of Paul and since then does not carry in it the notion that they are sinners in need of personal salvation.    The sacrifices were reminders of sin, but you need to understand that in Jewish theology, in Paul's day and even today, is seen as a corporate thing, and individual.  Jewish theology does not have a personal salvation component.   Sacrifices were not about salvation, they were not the means of OT salvation.    Jewish theology saw God as the one who would bring salvation to the nation, and establish His Kingdom in Israel.  That's "salvation"  from a Torah observant Jew's perspective. 

 

Paul knew what sin was because of the law, and realized the law lacked what he needed to keep it.

 

But that was ONLY after he spent 3 years in Arabia being taught by the Lord and basically having to unlearn some things and learn new things.

 

 

Here is where we differ in our theology. I believe I am who God says I am, that the Born again me is the real me, the old man is dead, who I was in the flesh, now I need to renew my mind to the reality of Christ and put off the residue of the former life. If I sin, that is not who I am, I'm acting out of character to who I really am in Christ. God made me righteous so that righteousness can manifest through my life and now we are free to fully follow the Lord with everything we are.

 

Actually, I completely agree with that.   Where you and I disagree is that you seem unable to comprehend the fact that you still have a sin nature.   You fail to see that while you are born again and born of God, your flesh (sin nature) was not eradicated.   Your old man is dead; he died at the moment you were saved.  But your flesh is not the "old man."  The old man is the old self that died when your spirit was made alive.  Your flesh (which is not the human body) is still unregenerated.  It is still there and wars against the spirit (Gal. 5:17)   In fact, if you don't have a sin nature, you would not sin at all; no would sin at all.  Every Christian would have no choice but walk in sinless perfection if the flesh were eradicated altogether.

 

And Yes, you are legally declared righteous, but not inherently righteous.  That is basic theology, Joshua.   The word for justified, or "made righteous" is  a legal term in the Greek.  It refers to judicial decision.   It does not mean that you are inherently righteous.   That my burst a bubble in your theology, but that's the case and you won't find one person who knows Greek who will say otherwise. 

 

Paul makes that case in Romans 4 where he compares the imputation of righteousness to Abraham by faith, with us and says that righteousness is imputed to us in the same way as it was to Abraham.  Abraham was not made inherently righteous and he is the pattern that Paul uses.

 

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

(Rom 4:20-25)

 

[hmbld]

No one is perfect yet in this life. If you think you can live a perfect sinless life from here on, you are deceived. Something to strive for, sure. But simply striving to be perfect, I think is missing the mark.