Christian perfection

[Mr Nice]

For those who claim that we can ever be perfect, can you please explain the following passage.

 

Revelation 12:¹⁰ Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power

    and the kingdom of our God,

    and the authority of his Messiah.

For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,

    who accuses them before our God day and night,

    has been hurled down.

¹¹ They triumphed over him

    by the blood of the Lamb

    and by the word of their testimony;

they did not love their lives so much

    as to shrink from death.

 

First, what does Satan have to accuse people about that are perfect?

Second, they don't triumph over him because they were perfect, but by the blood of the Lamb.

 

These are brothers and sisters, so we are talking about believers here.  Your argument speaks against scripture in too many ways to be counted.

 

Rev 12:11  "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.  

 

How about use the entire verse?  For that matter how about make sure it is consistent with all of scripture.  According to this verse they overcame due to three things, not just the blood of the Lamb.

• They overcame because of the blood of the Lamb AND
• because of their testimony  AND
• because they did not love their life even when faced with death.

Likewise, John, the writer of Revelation says that our faith overcomes the world.

 

1Jn 5:4-5  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.  (5)  Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

Believing Jesus is the Son of God means you believe everything written of Him and by Him.

 

The devil will accuse us no matter what because he does not want us to be saved.  He will likely try harder on those who are Christ's.

[Augustine17]

Jesus gave this message:

Blessed are you when they revile you and persecute you and say all sorts of false things against you because of me. For that is how they treated the Prophets before you. 

 

If you read Jeremiah lies were made up about him, and David said his enemies made up a lie about him, and also Jesus was called Beelzebub, John called a drunkard etc. This happens not because those things are true, but because certain people cannot deal with the innocent who do not engage in others' sinful activities, and people who love sin hate the gospel, God, Jesus and of course those who follow them. Jesus would not tell us to be complete unless it was possible. He is not the type to give someone an order that is impossible, not at all. Of course to obey God requires help for a sinner, and forgiveness of sin, as well as circumcision of the heart. By no means can you do it alone, and by no means can you have an evil heart with righteous deeds that vindicate you, God looks at the heart. Because the heart develops all kinds of evil in the sinful nature, deeds alone cannot save, since you would 'Do what you do not want to do, and what you hate you do', this refers to being a slave to sin.

 

Of course we cannot be perfect alone, that would mean we were able to free ourselves from judgement. However the heart, mind, body and spirit once offered as worship can please God, yet you cannot do so without the Holy Spirit, for 'those who are led by the Holy Spirit are children of God.'. The process of being born again means you have to die in one way. A person who is a drunkard that tries to stay from alcohol undergoes a struggle, likewise a person that is sinful undergoes a struggle refraining from sin not only in action but in heart mind and soul. It is like a process of getting sober, and that is repentance. This is what John expressed:

 

I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. - Matthew 3:11 

 

The second baptism is done later. But you cannot experience the second without the first. God is a consuming fire, and with a sinner he cannot dwell. Therefore all who believe are made holy by the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire. A baptist like John could teach of sin and preach the message: repent or perish, but it was up to the people to repent. After repenting they were expected to seek the God, and his great Son would free them. 'Whoever the Son sets free is free indeed.' Then he sends them the Helper a.k.a the Holy Spirit. To say I love God while you are a sinner (key word: sinner, not one who has sinned, or one who maybe committed a sin on a rare occasion when it is out of character), is a complete and utter lie. The soul that sins will die, and it cannot love God. Because if a sinner loved God they would love him in their heart, and love is in the heart, but since it is defiled they cannot love God. Whoever breaks the least of the commands breaks them all, and thus becomes a law breaker, or, even if for a moment, a sinner, unless they repent.

 

I am saying aim for being clean 100% all the time. 'Seek the Kingdom and His righteousness', is a phrase that is appropriate. Be diligent in virtue, aiming forward and despising sin, as you should. The Kingdom of Heaven is great, but the world we live in is horrible compared to it, and once you become born again, or possibly before, though not as much, you will realize the world is very dirty, and some people learn that the hard way. People do horrible things and destroy and murder, rape their children, bully and beat those who help them, murder the innocent, enjoy hate, etc. and that, for someone who is righteous is very disturbing, so in the hunger and thirst for righteousness and the Kingdom they feel uncomfortable in a sinful environment, which re-emphasizes their desire. That is why Paul's message about the people that he designated as people who live by faith (Moses etc.) was that 'they thought themselves aliens'.

 

The saints of God have to dwell with unbelievers and the wicked, as well as endure a sinful culture, possibly a place with corrupt religion, witnessing or hearing of the abused and mistreated and other such injustices. They are also unlike sinners and the wicked, so they are alienated. Well I think I have went on typing for a while and maybe lost track of the whole topic but anyways you can't force yourself not to be a sinner, but you can repent of your sin. After abstaining from it you will not be clean if you desire it, because the sin is in the desire, but run from sin and there is one who will have mercy. Run from all evil. If you search for God and His way diligently without quitting you will find it. It isn't safe to trust public religion. One cannot be saved by 'repeating this prayer', or being physically baptized and not spiritually. That is a road that nobody can walk for you. But praise to Jesus, because he helps those who hunger and thirst for righteousness.  Because the ones who hunger and thirst for righteousness are filled. Now if you haven't, anyone who still has hope and is reading, please seek God and let him circumcise your heart because I don't think I want any more people in Hell than there are. The process can take some time, but remember to watch your motives and your mind because God can see it.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Augustine17

[enoob57]

There is no such thing as a second baptism in Scripture!

Eph 4:5-6

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all,

who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

KJV

Love, Steven

[Augustine17]

John baptized with water and repentance, while Jesus did with the Spirit and Fire, the one baptism is of the spirit. John prepared the way for the Lord(Jesus) by baptizing the people who repented. He also preached the repent or perish message. Furthermore, nobody received the Holy Spirit through baptism while Jesus was on earth. The true baptism was to take place later. John was born first and also it is expressed about him:

 

"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.''

 

John already had the Holy Spirit and while Jesus was on earth it could not be given, he preached repentance, and also note that when Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit being sent, and of those who love him, he expressed:

 

If you love me, you will obey my commandments. 16 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another helper who will be with you forever. 17 That helper is the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it doesn’t see or know him. You know him, because he lives with you and will be in you.

 

Jesus needed to depart before the comforter would come. While he was on earth it wasn't sent, but when he left it was sent. As for John, he was filled with the Holy Spirit when he was in Elizabeth's womb. The 'one baptism' is of the spirit. But John was the one whom was spoken about when this was expressed:

 

'Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.' - Isaiah 40:3

 

He lead them to repent which made it easier. You cannot receive the Holy Spirit if you didn't repent, if you are a sinner.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Augustine17

[Mr Nice]

Jesus gave this message:

Blessed are you when they revile you and persecute you and say all sorts of false things against you because of me. For that is how they treated the Prophets before you. 

 

If you read Jeremiah lies were made up about him, and David said his enemies made up a lie about him, and also Jesus was called Beelzebub, John called a drunkard etc. This happens not because those things are true, but because certain people cannot deal with the innocent who do not engage in others' sinful activities, and people who love sin hate the gospel, God, Jesus and of course those who follow them. Jesus would not tell us to be complete unless it was possible. He is not the type to give someone an order that is impossible, not at all. Of course to obey God requires help for a sinner, and forgiveness of sin, as well as circumcision of the heart. By no means can you do it alone, and by no means can you have an evil heart with righteous deeds that vindicate you, God looks at the heart. Because the heart develops all kinds of evil in the sinful nature, deeds alone cannot save, since you would 'Do what you do not want to do, and what you hate you do', this refers to being a slave to sin.

 

Of course we cannot be perfect alone, that would mean we were able to free ourselves from judgement. However the heart, mind, body and spirit once offered as worship can please God, yet you cannot do so without the Holy Spirit, for 'those who are led by the Holy Spirit are children of God.'. The process of being born again means you have to die in one way. A person who is a drunkard that tries to stay from alcohol undergoes a struggle, likewise a person that is sinful undergoes a struggle refraining from sin not only in action but in heart mind and soul. It is like a process of getting sober, and that is repentance. This is what John expressed:

 

I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. - Matthew 3:11 

 

The second baptism is done later. But you cannot experience the second without the first. God is a consuming fire, and with a sinner he cannot dwell. Therefore all who believe are made holy by the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire. A baptist like John could teach of sin and preach the message: repent or perish, but it was up to the people to repent. After repenting they were expected to seek the God, and his great Son would free them. 'Whoever the Son sets free is free indeed.' Then he sends them the Helper a.k.a the Holy Spirit. To say I love God while you are a sinner (key word: sinner, not one who has sinned, or one who maybe committed a sin on a rare occasion when it is out of character), is a complete and utter lie. The soul that sins will die, and it cannot love God. Because if a sinner loved God they would love him in their heart, and love is in the heart, but since it is defiled they cannot love God. Whoever breaks the least of the commands breaks them all, and thus becomes a law breaker, or, even if for a moment, a sinner, unless they repent.

 

I am saying aim for being clean 100% all the time. 'Seek the Kingdom and His righteousness', is a phrase that is appropriate. Be diligent in virtue, aiming forward and despising sin, as you should. The Kingdom of Heaven is great, but the world we live in is horrible compared to it, and once you become born again, or possibly before, though not as much, you will realize the world is very dirty, and some people learn that the hard way. People do horrible things and destroy and murder, rape their children, bully and beat those who help them, murder the innocent, enjoy hate, etc. and that, for someone who is righteous is very disturbing, so in the hunger and thirst for righteousness and the Kingdom they feel uncomfortable in a sinful environment, which re-emphasizes their desire. That is why Paul's message about the people that he designated as people who live by faith (Moses etc.) was that 'they thought themselves aliens'.

 

The saints of God have to dwell with unbelievers and the wicked, as well as endure a sinful culture, possibly a place with corrupt religion, witnessing or hearing of the abused and mistreated and other such injustices. They are also unlike sinners and the wicked, so they are alienated. Well I think I have went on typing for a while and maybe lost track of the whole topic but anyways you can't force yourself not to be a sinner, but you can repent of your sin. After abstaining from it you will not be clean if you desire it, because the sin is in the desire, but run from sin and there is one who will have mercy. Run from all evil. If you search for God and His way diligently without quitting you will find it. It isn't safe to trust public religion. One cannot be saved by 'repeating this prayer', or being physically baptized and not spiritually. That is a road that nobody can walk for you. But praise to Jesus, because he helps those who hunger and thirst for righteousness.  Because the ones who hunger and thirst for righteousness are filled. Now if you haven't, anyone who still has hope and is reading, please seek God and let him circumcise your heart because I don't think I want any more people in Hell than there are. The process can take some time, but remember to watch your motives and your mind because God can see it.

 

Amen again.  Through God we can do all things, for nothing is impossible with Him.

[Augustine17]

@Mr. Nice Glad to find someone who believes in the gospel and not the license to heaven doctrine. 

[Kan]

For those who claim that we can ever be perfect, can you please explain the following passage.

 

Revelation 12:¹⁰ Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power

    and the kingdom of our God,

    and the authority of his Messiah.

For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,

    who accuses them before our God day and night,

    has been hurled down.

¹¹ They triumphed over him

    by the blood of the Lamb

    and by the word of their testimony;

they did not love their lives so much

    as to shrink from death.

 

First, what does Satan have to accuse people about that are perfect?

Second, they don't triumph over him because they were perfect, but by the blood of the Lamb.

 

These are brothers and sisters, so we are talking about believers here.  Your argument speaks against scripture in too many ways to be counted.

 

The devil does not need a guilty person to accuse, did he not rant against Christ?

[wingnut-]

 

 

The devil will accuse us no matter what because he does not want us to be saved.  He will likely try harder on those who are Christ's.

 

 

Those people spoken of are brethren according to John.  There is nothing a "perfect" person can be accused of.  What did Satan accuse Jesus of if that is the case?  Show me that in scripture please.

[wingnut-]

 

 

The devil does not need a guilty person to accuse, did he not rant against Christ?

 

 

 

What accusation did Satan bring against Jesus?  How about posting that scripture.

[Mr Nice]

 

 

 

The devil does not need a guilty person to accuse, did he not rant against Christ?

 

 

 

What accusation did Satan bring against Jesus?  How about posting that scripture.

 

 A person does not have to be guilty to be accused of something.   Look at what Peter said to those who were slanderously spoken of when they did nothing wrong.

 

1Pe 2:11-15  Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.  (12)  Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.  (13)  Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,  (14)  or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.  (15)  For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.

 

People accuse others all the time, just like Christ was accused by the Pharisees, because the life we are living makes them realize their deeds are evil and so they hate us like they hated Christ.  They want to make us look bad so they will accuse us of everything under the sun just like Satan does.

 

Joh 7:7  "The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.

 

Luk 6:22-23  "Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man.  (23)  "Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets.

 

Take my ex-wife for example, she has accused me of sexually abusing my daughters, threatening to shoot her and my daughters, etc. when none of it was true because she was seeking to destroy me because her deeds were evil.  She had turned from God, became a stripper, a drug dealer, and a prostitute and the judge restricted her access to her daughters.  I was guilty of nothing yet I was accused.