Kan Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 oh how can it not atone? The Q is not whether the sacrifice of Christ atones, or why it atones, but how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 We can understand to a degree why Christ is our substitute, but how can it be so? How can His death pay for the penalty of the world, let alone His sinless life as the substitute for ours? You need to read the old testament to undertand the new. Jesus sacrifice was part of the atonement according to the sacrificial law set up through Moses. As another said, Jesus is the scapegoat. Leviticus 16 shows that Aaron sacrifices a goat for him and his household first. He then sacrifices another for all of Israel. But he then puts all of Israels sin onto the scapegoat and sends it away into the wilderness. Often if you read those old Jewish books you would see people tying a red cord around the goats horn. When it turned white the nation would realize God forgave them of their sin. At times, it did not change. And it stopped changing after Jesus came. Aaron was the one who did this, and if you read Luke 1:5, John the Baptist is a descendant of Aaron. Jesus himself said John was "elijah to come" and "john the greatest man born from women", the prophecies of John show him making Jesus paths straight. Read it side by side, You see Jesus being baptized by John in the Jordan then John confessing Jesus took away the worlds sin. Jesus goes into the wilderness. All sin requires blood and without blood there is no forgiveness and that is why he was crucified. When you pray for forgiveness for example I believe it is a false doctrine. Example, these people were neither water baptized nor were they praying but they believed Acts 10:43-47. Faith is what forgives but people put too much emphasis on the prayer. You pray to God confessing your sin, but believing in the sacrifice. You confess your sin with a repentant heart, believing Jesus took away the worlds sin (his baptism, water) crucified all sin once and for all through his death (blood) and you will get the holy spirit. 1 John 5:6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. I hope you know then, the scapegoat was used to pay for the whole nation of Israel. But Jesus came, and he paid for the whole world. But to claim such a gift you have to repent firstly then believe You have pointed out that there is an atonement and how it was demonstrated in the sanctuary service, but the Q is how does an atonement work? You have just crashed your old car, so you crash your new car to atone for the old? That does not work does it? How does the atonement, the substitution work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 You say man did not die..but man ( Adam ) did die...not the moment he tasted the fruit but he did die as do we. When I said it is a mystery I meant that a loving God would willingly send His Son to die for us so that we could be with Him forever. That kind of love is a mystery...we cannot imagine it. Jesus is the sacrifice for ALL will accept that willingly died in our place. Would anyone of us die in place of a man in prison on death row? But that is exactly what Jesus did. True, I understand what you are saying. Let's say that someone offers to die for the guilty on death row, would that offer be acceptable in court? No. That's what I want to know by asking, How does Christ's death atone? How is that possible? Legally and naturally. It's not that God could not have done it any other way because he could have done. How could He have done it another way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 If the atonement is legally possible because God is the law giver, then why did He not make the law redundant, or by pass it, so that the Son did not have to suffer and die, and especially to become a man which must have been a humiliating and excruciating experience just to diminish His eternal realm of existence to a tiny, vulnerable, limited and mortal one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,244 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,658 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted January 10, 2015 Jesus prayed in the garden Jesus prayed that if there were any other way, please let this cup pass from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 10, 2015 God demanded a blood sacrifice ( of a pure unblemished animal) from man. This was from the time He sacrificed an animal for Adam and Eve. The blood sacrifice could not atone for all of mankind's sin so God offered His sinless Son on the cross. This was done for one reason... Man changes ...in thought , in action, in deed but GOD NEVER CHANGES. Rather than each one to offer an animal, God did it once for all. That sin of man was so great, so filthy, so heinous that God, who loved His Son with such love man cannot even begin to imagine, the Father, so pure so Holy, turned a His face from the Son He so loved. That is why Jesus cried to the Father "Why have You forsaken Me?" A pure unblemished sacrifice offered by a Holy God, once for all. Done once for all mankind, if man would but accept, say, "Yes." To Jesus. The only catch is that you must accept that sacrifice BY FAITH. It cannot be bought, sold, worked out, or won it must accepted BY FAITH, just as you accept by faith that the sun rises every morning in the East and sets in the West, even though it is storming and dark and cloudy and you cannot see it. God does not change His mind, His laws, His requirements for man to live with Him for eternity. He has one way only and that is through The blood of His Holy Son, Jesus...by faith alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted January 11, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.88 Content Count: 43,795 Content Per Day: 6.20 Reputation: 11,243 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted January 11, 2015 If the atonement is legally possible because God is the law giver, then why did He not make the law redundant, or by pass it, so that the Son did not have to suffer and die, and especially to become a man which must have been a humiliating and excruciating experience just to diminish His eternal realm of existence to a tiny, vulnerable, limited and mortal one. He chose to do it that way. Perhaps to show us the seriousness of sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted January 11, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 11, 2015 If the atonement is legally possible because God is the law giver, then why did He not make the law redundant, or by pass it, so that the Son did not have to suffer and die, and especially to become a man which must have been a humiliating and excruciating experience just to diminish His eternal realm of existence to a tiny, vulnerable, limited and mortal one. He chose to do it that way. Perhaps to show us the seriousness of sin. Absolutely - He, God , did it. Nothing to question...because He is God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted January 11, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 Jesus prayed in the garden Jesus prayed that if there were any other way, please let this cup pass from me. Good one, it means there was no other way, we can accept that with confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted January 11, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 God demanded a blood sacrifice ( of a pure unblemished animal) from man. This was from the time He sacrificed an animal for Adam and Eve. The blood sacrifice could not atone for all of mankind's sin so God offered His sinless Son on the cross. This was done for one reason... Man changes ...in thought , in action, in deed but GOD NEVER CHANGES. Rather than each one to offer an animal, God did it once for all. That sin of man was so great, so filthy, so heinous that God, who loved His Son with such love man cannot even begin to imagine, the Father, so pure so Holy, turned a His face from the Son He so loved. That is why Jesus cried to the Father "Why have You forsaken Me?" A pure unblemished sacrifice offered by a Holy God, once for all. Done once for all mankind, if man would but accept, say, "Yes." To Jesus. The only catch is that you must accept that sacrifice BY FAITH. It cannot be bought, sold, worked out, or won it must accepted BY FAITH, just as you accept by faith that the sun rises every morning in the East and sets in the West, even though it is storming and dark and cloudy and you cannot see it. God does not change His mind, His laws, His requirements for man to live with Him for eternity. He has one way only and that is through The blood of His Holy Son, Jesus...by faith alone. Why cannot the animal or even a human sacrifice, or even an angel suffice? Why the Son God Himself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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