Rev. 7's great multitude before the throne

[Sister]

 

If God smites a third part of the sun, and there's no light in the day for a third part of the day, then something is obviously blocking the sun from shinning through.  On the other side of the world it would be night time, and the light from the stars will not shine through either, and so it goes, back and forth.

 

What would block the sun from getting through?  Smoke or pollution of some sort.

How would the air escape outside the earths atmosphere through all that blockage?

Well it can't.  The earth would become like an oven.  It would produce great heat.

 

This would not be the same type of heat that God will use when he melts the earth,...because no man would live.

This type of heat is going to be very uncomfortable muggy heat, because the hot air cannot escape, therefore the reason why it's dark for a third part of the day is because the smoke is blocking the sun's rays, and affecting the light from the moon and stars on the other side of the world.

 

All of this is caused from the same 4th angel.  He smites the sun, then we feel the effect, ...the trapped heat. 

 

Scientists don't speak about a nuclear winter for nothing. When the sun's radiation is blocked out -- for example, whenever great volcanoes such as Krakatoa blow up and send huge clouds into the atmosphere that come to span the globe --  worldwide temperatures drop, they do not rise.

 

Hi William

 

Thank you.  I don't know about all that right now, but will look into it.

 

Firstly, coming from a scriptural point of view, and not a scientific one, I need to make you realise that there are only 7 angels who deliver God's wrath.  One angel after another until the 7th, ....and not 7 angels here, and then another 7 angels after, because that would be 14 angels.  No where does it mention 14 angels, it only says there are seven angels..

 

Here is the key.

 

Revelation 10:7   But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

How does an angel sound?

Does he yell or scream?

 

Revelation 8:6   And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

 

 

By the time the 7th angel has blown the trumpet (sounded), it is finished.  Done.  There are no more angels to come.  The job is completed, and Babylon fully destroyed. (the system of Babylon gone).

[Sister]

William

 

 Revelation 15:8   And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

[Sister]

William

 

Found another one.

 

 Revelation 16:17   And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

  Revelation 16:18   And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

  Revelation 16:19   And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

  Revelation 16:20   And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

  Revelation 16:21   And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

 

Babylon is destroyed on the 7th vial....and on the 7th trumpet, ....therefore Babylon is only finished off once, not twice.

 

"It is finished (trumpet) and "it is done" (vial) speaks about the same thing....mission completed.

 

The key to this mystery is in Rev 10 where it proves the 7th angel with the trumpet is the final one.

I hope you can see this brother.

[Last Daze]

 

The Great Tribulation is the Wrath of the Devil, not the Wrath of God. You have not provided any scripture that says otherwise, nor can you. Neither can you provide any scripture for the length of time of the GT. No scripture says that it lasts for 7 years/times, or any other length.

I could provide a whole raft of Scriptures, but since you are evidently not familiar with Daniel's 70th week, and how it ties in with the book of Revelation, or the prophecies concerning the Day of the LORD, or "the time of Jacob's trouble",  it will not be profitable at this time. 

 

Suffice it to say that the Daniel's 70th week is divided into two segments of 3 1/2 years.  The first half consists of Satanic Deception + Satanic Attacks against Tribulation Saints + God's Wrathful Judgments. 

 

The second half is the result of the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation and is the Great Tribulation = the Day of the Lord = God's Wrath in its final phase (and Jesus said that because of the elect those days would be shortened, which then would be reduced to about 6 1/2 years). 

 

So the Great Tribulation is God's wrath against Satan and the ungodly, not Satan's wrath against humanity or the saints. Which gets us back to the OP.  This is not something which the Church will endure, therefore there will be a pre-Tribulation Rapture.  Those are the saints in Rev 7:9-17 ("a GREAT MULTITUDE which no man could number").

 

It's amazing how keen so many Christians (mid-Trib and post-Trib) are to want the Church to go through the Great Tribulation.  It makes absolutely no sense.  (BTW you will not find the word "church" between Rev 4:1 and Rev 18:24, because the Church is in the New Jerusalem during that period).

 

 

The timing of the rapture is explicitly stated as coming after the resurrection, when the dead in Christ are raised immortal by Him.  Christ clearly stated that this is going to happen on the last day.  Our gathering to Christ is stated as being on the day of the Lord (2 Thess 2).  The day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night (1 Thess 5).  The resurrection-rapture happens at some point after the sixth bowl when the armies gather together for the battle of Armageddon.

 

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.  Revelation 16:12-16

 

Clearly the day of the Lord hasn't come before the sixth bowl.

 

I don't think anyone wants to go through the great tribulation as you say.  I for one just don't see any benefit in ignoring what scripture clearly states.

[Spock]

Rev. 7:9 NKJV After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands... 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them."

 

1) Who are these people?

2) Why does this passage come after the 6th Seal, and before the 7th Seal?

 

I'll take a stab at it, with scriptural support.

 

1)  From the text, they are the ones that have come out of the great tribulation.  The phrase "great multitude which no one could number" is very telling.  The false prophet comes after the apostasy and with all the deception of wickedness according to 2 Thess 2, and according to this verse:For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, there can not possibly be an innumerable multitude that "come to faith" all of a sudden.  There is no support for a "great revival" anywhere, only evidence to the contrary, so this multitude is made up of the church from around the world.

 

2) because the 6th seal marks the end of the great tribulation.  Compare the 6th seal with Matthew 24:29.  And these come out of the great tribulation.

I just began reading this thread, but I must stop here and throw my two cents in- this rebuttal is how I am perceiving these verses as well. I don't see how bopeep's interpretation could be right, although I know guys like Hal Lindsey and the early pretribbers all said these are "trib saints."

I think they had to believe after the rapture there would be this great revival, but I don't see that in scripture. I will keep reading this thread to see if others will illuminate my thinking here if I be in error.

Good insight Last Daze. Thanks for sharing it.

[Spock]

Getting back to basics here-

When do we believe the "Great tribulation" begins?

Show me in the scriptures also if you don't mind. Thanks.

[Spock]

Next question: Who are the martyrs in Rev 6, seal 5?

I read RT thinking these are the guys killed AFTER the rapture, but how can this be?

The rapture is not revealed until AFTER the 6th seal.

It seems to me these are people martyred for their faith from all time, waiting for the rapture, not after the rapture.

As you can see, I interpret the book of Rev to be very chronological, with character analysis sprinkled in, to let us know more details about the players are in the end times.

[Spock]

Hi WilliamL,

 

I believe they are not the Body of Christ as they have been raptured prior to this. We see the Body of Christ, I believe around the throne in Rev. 4: 4 where they are with Christ, (`I will grant to him to sit with Me on My throne...` (Rev. 3: 21), & are crowned. We then see that these same ones (the Body of Christ) are still around God`s throne & asking who the great multitude are, (in Rev. 7: 11 - 13). Thus we can see they are different groups.

 

Marilyn.

Hi marilyn, In my opinion, this is very weak support to prove your point here. I'm not saying you can't be right, but In my opinion, it is very weak evidence, and Im not persuaded.......yet.

[Spock]

The Great Tribulation is the Wrath of the Devil, not the Wrath of God. You have not provided any scripture that says otherwise, nor can you. Neither can you provide any scripture for the length of time of the GT. No scripture says that it lasts for 7 years/times, or any other length.

I could provide a whole raft of Scriptures, but since you are evidently not familiar with Daniel's 70th week, and how it ties in with the book of Revelation, or the prophecies concerning the Day of the LORD, or "the time of Jacob's trouble",  it will not be profitable at this time. 

 

Suffice it to say that the Daniel's 70th week is divided into two segments of 3 1/2 years.  The first half consists of Satanic Deception + Satanic Attacks against Tribulation Saints + God's Wrathful Judgments. 

 

The second half is the result of the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation and is the Great Tribulation = the Day of the Lord = God's Wrath in its final phase (and Jesus said that because of the elect those days would be shortened, which then would be reduced to about 6 1/2 years). 

 

So the Great Tribulation is God's wrath against Satan and the ungodly, not Satan's wrath against humanity or the saints. Which gets us back to the OP.  This is not something which the Church will endure, therefore there will be a pre-Tribulation Rapture.  Those are the saints in Rev 7:9-17 ("a GREAT MULTITUDE which no man could number").

 

It's amazing how keen so many Christians (mid-Trib and post-Trib) are to want the Church to go through the Great Tribulation.  It makes absolutely no sense.  (BTW you will not find the word "church" between Rev 4:1 and Rev 18:24, because the Church is in the New Jerusalem during that period).

Question- are the seals in daniels 70th week?

Thanks.

[Spock]

Hi Last Daze

I can see you are getting frustrated about Williams view on the 7 angels.  Don't worry brother, you are right on this one.

.....and sorry William, you cannot see that there are only 7 angels,  not 14 or more.  The scriptures are clear, only 7 angels to pour out the wrath of God.

The trumpets and vials are only symbolic.  The trumpet sounds the alarm, ...."it's time.".....and the vial is poured out (God's wrath)

Both are happening at the same event.

 

Just like parts of Rev are backed up by Daniel,

The vials back up the trumpets.  They give us different details, from different angles of the same event.

 

for example,

When the 6th angel blows the trumpet, ("It's time") , God sends him to release Satan's angels who are bound in the Great Euphrates River.  (They are in a spiritual prison, bound there somewhere)

Now the same angel who blew that trumpet, pours out the vial... which is the wrath.  Now we have the Euphrates River dried up, so that these evil angels who are prepared, can stir up the Kings of the East to come into Israel to war.  It's the same event. It wont happen in a day.  ...

Yes, I've heard this argument before, in many forms. Some people claim that the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls all take place concurrently.

 

Let's give it a test. If any part fails, the whole system's logic fails.

 

Rev. 8:8 Then the second angel sounded... 9 and a third of the living creatures in the sea died...

Rev. 16:2 Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea...and every living creature in the sea died.

 

Rev. 8:12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck... A third of the day did not shine...

Rev. 16:8 Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat...

 

There simply is not agreement here. These two pairs of events take place at different times, because they are different events: "both are" not "happening at the same event."

100% agree with this assessment. I think it is a HUGE stretch to interpret the seals, bowls, and trumpets as being one and the same.

The bible has them as different and consecutive. Unless this interpretation makes no sense, imo, it should be assumed to be what was intended.