Matthias

[Ezra]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought one had to have personally seen the risen Lord to be an Apostle. 

 

Correct, and Paul included himseld in that group (1 Cor. 15:8,9).

[disciplehelovestoo]

 

based on John 14:12, any reborn believer today can be an apostle

 

And based on Scripture there are only "twelve apostles of the Lamb" (Rev 21:14), and only 12 names inscribed on the 12 foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem.  And the Lord was very precise -- 12 apostles, 12 thrones, 12 tribes of Israel (Mt 19:28).  We should not play fast and loose with Scripture.

 

Heb 3:1-2 KJV

(1)  Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

(2)  Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

 

Apostle...Christ Jesus

 

that would be 13...

 

in Mat 19:28, Jesus was speaking to the twelve that included Judas Iscariot; are you saying that Judas Iscariot's name is included in Rev 21:14?

 

fast and loose?

 

Edited February 27, 2015 by disciplehelovestoo

[Willa]

The purpose for replacing Judas was to have another official witness of the ministry, teachings, the death and ressurection of Jesus from the time of John the Baptist to His assencion into heaven. Acts 1:21-22 So in that regard Paul did not qualify. But he was one of the greatest missionaries and the one who gave us much of the New Testament. His teachings were inspired by the Holy Spirit and confirmed by the rest of the leaders of the Church, and his ministry had their approval. Jesus appeared to Paul as the resurrected, ascended Christ, but Paul was not a personal witness to his life on earth, his death, resurrection and ascension. He wasn't even present at the birth of the church on Pentacost. That is why he called himself one as born out of due time in 1 Cor. 15:8. But in nearly all his letters he introduces himself as the Apostle Paul, chosen by God.

Apostle literaly means sent out one. He and Barnabus were both sent by James and Peter to the gentiles as well as by the church at Antioch.. Apostles may be missionaries or church planters that God has chosen and gifted for this purpose, just as God calls some to be pastors and equips them for the job. I don't believe that any born again believer can take it upon themselves to become these things even though they graduate as valadictorians from their seminary. It is God who chooses, calls, sends and enables these people.

[Ezra]

 

 

based on John 14:12, any reborn believer today can be an apostle

 

And based on Scripture there are only "twelve apostles of the Lamb" (Rev 21:14), and only 12 names inscribed on the 12 foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem.  And the Lord was very precise -- 12 apostles, 12 thrones, 12 tribes of Israel (Mt 19:28).  We should not play fast and loose with Scripture.

 

Heb 3:1-2 KJV

(1)  Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

(2)  Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

 

Apostle...Christ Jesus

 

that would be 13...

 

 

fast and loose?

 

Including Christ as an "apostle" would definitely be playing fast and loose. "Apostle AND High Priest" is not the same as "apostle".

 

 

in Mat 19:28, Jesus was speaking to the twelve that included Judas Iscariot; are you saying that Judas Iscariot's name is included in Rev 21:14?

 

And in Mt 26:24 "it had been good for that man if he had not been born".  So in the foreknowledge of Christ, Judas has been excluded from the day he was born, while Paul was included from BEFORE the day he was born.

[OakWood]

 

 

 

based on John 14:12, any reborn believer today can be an apostle

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought one had to have personally seen the risen Lord to be an Apostle. 

 

 

That's why I try to discern between the word 'disciple' and 'apostle'. I know that they can mean the same thing, but two different words can be used for different things. Whether this is accurate or not, I use 'disciple' to specifically mean the original twelve. I use 'apostle' to mean one of the followers of Jesus including the twelve but strictly referring to an apostle mentioned in the Bible such as Paul, and only loosely speaking as anybody in the more general sense.

I don't think we should get too cut up on semantics here.

[WilliamL]

 

Matthias was, or course, chosen to replace Judas as the 12th Apostle, but then we don't hear anything else about him. My question is: Did Paul replace Matthias as the 12th Apostle?

 

3. Paul was commissioned directly by "Jesus Christ, and God the Father" (Gal 1:1). That speaks of two witnesses in Heaven to the apostleship of Paul.

This is the only thing that really mattered, IMHO. To be an apostle of Jesus Christ, you have to be appointed by Jesus Christ. I don't see anywhere that he gave other apostles that authority. Peter just got ahead of himself when he presumed he did (which wasn't the first time he got ahead of himself).

 

As far as the point made about having seen the risen Christ: lots of people have seen the risen Christ, many of them in our day, including quite a few Muslims who have been converted by him.