Understanding Sin

[Tristen]

Hey firestormx,

You said “Sin is the transgression of the Law”

 

Only for those who are under Law.

 

 

 

“1. We are not under law but grace. So how is there still sin?”

 

For a sincere Christian, there is no sin because our Saviour dealt with our sin through His vicarious sacrifice - as verse 5 says; “⁵ And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.” (1 John 3:5)

 

 

 

“2. I didn't think there was law in the garden of Eden, so how did Adam and Eve sin?”

 

The Law is a covenant that epitomizes God’s Holy standard. If someone is under Law, it is sin to transgress the Law (James 2:10, Galatians 5:3). However sin itself is not dependent upon the existence of Law.

 

Romans 5:12-13

¹² Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— ¹³ (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law

 

Right and wrong are eternal concepts (because God is both Holy and eternal). The Law is a limited expression of that eternal holiness – a national covenant which lacked the capacity to save, but preserved the nation (not to mention the bloodline of the promised Saviour) from the corrosive influence of sin.

 

Interestingly, James flips the use of “Law” from the Law of Moses to the Law of liberty (James 1:25, 2:8-13) – using as an analogy, the stringent adherence requirements of the old covenant as encouragement to pursue the liberty of the new covenant. I bet that confuses a few people.

 

 

 

“Could the answer to my questions be as simple as Law = all commandments of God or The entirety of the Word of God In context with this verse?”

 

I'm not so sure. Christians are explicitly under a different covenant to Law. As such, Christians have no obligation to any precept of the Law. It is our incapacity to keep the Law that necessitated our need for another path to salvation – something we could not accomplish through physical observance to lists of rules.

 

 

 

“John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. Jesus said the above verse and that it was a new commandment. To transgress this is to sin. But why and how is it a sin?”

 

Yes, but the new commandment is to love – i.e. it is not an explicit rule or list of rules. Now that we have the indwelling Holy Spirit, we don’t need the letter of the Law (Romans 7:6, 2 Corinthians 3:5-17). None of the “fruits of the Spirit” are explicit rules (see Galatians 5:22-23, Ephesians 5:9).

 

 

 

“The  only thing I can see is all commandments of God or all of the Word of God is law as regards to 1 John 3:4.”

 

I find your proposal to be somewhat overcomplicated – and a bit confusing (perhaps I misunderstood). There are many commands that God has issued which have nothing to do with me (e.g. to Noah, to Abraham, to nations, to Moses, David, Isaiah etc., to women and wives and children, to Pharisees, to the rich;)). The covenant of law was explicitly with the nation of Israel. Your idea appears to stray dangerously close to legalism IMO – directing the emphasis back towards our efforts rather than His grace.

 

I think the issue is simpler – The Law exists to convince the unrighteous (Psalm 19:7, 1 Timothy 1:9) of their moral bankruptcy, to point them to faith in the gospel of Christ (Romans 3:19) – that “¹⁶ … God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16) and “⁹ that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9).

 

Galatians 3:24-25

²⁴ Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. ²⁵ But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

 

Romans 10:4

⁴ For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

 

Hebrews 10:12

¹² But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God

 

And so we return to the context of your question. The concept of sin is only valid for non-Christians including those under Law. As for Christians;

 

1 John 3:1-3

3 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. ² Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. ³ And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Tristen

[Kan]

Moses did not invent the ten commandments. These laws are the only thing that God has come to earth for as God and not a man, and written them with His own finger.

They are a copy of the laws which apply to mankind, the relationship between God and beings of the highest order in His creation. The original law of which Moses received a copy, is in heaven itself, before the throne in an ark. They are written on two tables of imperishable stone, facing each other, symbolizing the union or covenant between God and mankind.

 

They are not trivial, but spiritual in meaning, in other words they claim the innermost thoughts as well as the actions. The first and last laws are set in the heart and motives, and the rest follow in spirituality.

The law is not carnal or disposable as some foolishly think, but will remain forever.

 

Adam and Eve kept the Sabbath. Israel was given a copy of the law, that they should be trustees of it, sharing the Lord to the world.

 

Everything the Psalmist says about the law, statutes, covenant, testimony - is true and those terms all mean the these ten laws given by God.

Every other command and expectation of God is always subject to these ten simple and profound principles.

 

They are a transcript of God's personality, character, intent and governance. He will not abrogate or contravene His law by any means.

 

If God could have changed or thrown away the law which condemns every form of sin - externally and internally, then He would have done so to spare sinners.

It was because His law is immutable that He had to make the sacrifice for mankind, otherwise the first pair would have perished.

 

Jesus made it very clear - "Don't (even) think that I have come to destroy the law or the prophets; (again) I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (again) "not one jot will pass from the law until all be fulfilled" (Fulfilled does not mean "destroyed," but "ratified"). 

 

When Jesus talked about His or the Father's commandments, He was referring to the ten which He gave to Moses.

 

The new commandment Jesus gave, was new to the Jews who were under the dry order of the clergy, but it was the spirituality of the old law which was overlooked and neglected by the world.

 

I John 2:7 The new commandment to love one another is the old one - "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart... and they neighbor as thyself." That is a summary of the ten laws.

 

Now according to the Bible if anyone teaches otherwise - they will have their names removed from the book of life - Matthew 5:19, Rev 22:14, 19. KJV (other versions have deleted or changed these texts). 

 

If the law was redundant or destroyed, then God is dead, and we can make up each our own laws.

 

ONE ONLY NEEDS GRACE IF THERE IS A LAW

IF THERE IS NO LAW, THEN WHY WOULD ONE NEED GRACE?

 

So those who have no law (by searing their conscience with a hot iron) are not even under grace, 

and if not under grace, they cannot be saved.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Kan

[Hawkins]

"We are not under Law" only means we will not be judged by Law on the Judgment Day. Or God still sees us as the righteous as He no longer measures us against Law. 

 

However the purpose of a covenant is not to abolish law. Law is still in place as a measurement for whoever sins.

 

 

What is Law and Covenant

=================================

A covenant basically serves its primary purpose in identifying the righteous by putting only the wicked under the judgment of Law. An updated covenant is thus needed if even the righteous have difficulties in keeping the Law specified in an older covenant. God will thus sign off a newer covenant such that only the wicked will be put to death by Law.

 

A covenant basically has two parts, Law and Grace. The main message conveyed in a covenant is that "you keep the Law specified to an extent up to God's satisfaction such that you will be saved by His Grace".

 

A human on earth (virtually earth is a realm of Satan) cannot be saved without a covenant and the Grace granted through the covenant. As Grace is granted only under the name of Jesus Christ (there's no other names), no human can thus be saved without Jesus Christ. No one can see the Father except through Jesus Christ.

 

The reason why a human cannot be saved without a covenant:

The Bible said, sin is the breaking of Law. Adam sinned in Eden. So what Law did Adam break? Obviously it's not Mosaic Law. It is the absolution version of God's Law (i.e., without attaching to any covenant).

 

The Bible said, lust is a sin. Obviously, this is not found in Mosaic Law (which is attached to a covenant). Possibly it is also from the absolute version of God's Law.

 

If a human, nearly perfect and was directly made by God, when living inside God's realm (living together with God Himself) failed to keep this absolution version of Law, then how can a human living in Satan's realm (i.e., planet earth) keep such an absolute version of God Law. No one can keep such a version of Law when put outside God's realm (such as humans on earth).

 

Then why such a version of Law is put in place? In God's Ultimate Plan, an eternity called heaven will be built for humans and angels to live happily with God forever. As a result, a criteria is set up to qualify entities with free will to enter this eternity called heaven. Such a criteria is thus the absolute version of God's Law (Adam somehow failed).

 

The meaning of Adam's Fall:

Humans with free will cannot be directly put to heaven, as some of them will finally fall. Eden is a necessity for this point to be demonstrated openly as a witness. Angels and later humans thus know why Adam is not directly brought to heaven.

 

Planet earth becomes another necessity. Here humans are divided as sheep and goats, wheat and weeds. It's more like sift or filter such that only the righteous will be brought to heaven under open witness (of the angels and chosen saints).

 

Now Adam sinned and was driven out of God's realm (Eden), humans ever since are outside God's realm but in a realm of which Satan is said to be the god. Humans in this Satan's realm will not be able to keep the absolution version of God's Law. They will only go further and further away from God and God's expectation as set forth in terms of His absolute version of Law.

 

The above has been demonstrated by Noah's event where all mankind became so sinful to be tolerable by God. However, Noah is considered righteous in God's eyes. Now the question becomes how can the righteous be separated from the wicked and be saved!

 

That drives the need of a covenant with Grace. The righteous can thus be saved through God's Grace. God can grant Grace to save humans this way because in the end Jesus Christ will atone for their sins. God's Grace can thus be granted through Jesus Christ to each and every covenant.

 

To put it another way, without a covenant containing Grace, no humans can be saved. As a result, God doesn't need humans' agreement to enforce a covenant as without such a covenant no humans can be saved.

 

Other than the Law part and the Grace part, a covenant also specifies a scope of humans under the covenant.

 

Today, there are 2 basic covenants enforced on humans. A covenant (possibly originated from Noah) covering the Gentiles (or rather all mankind). The Law part of this covenant is the Law written by God in our hearts. It is closely linked to our conscience and moral code we live by.

 

The Jews can have an option of adapting another covenant (covering only the Jews and converters accepted by God). The Law part of this covenant is the Mosaic Law. The Jews need to be circumcised and to observe Mosaic Law in order to be covered by this covenant. God said if the Jews don't then they will be "cut off from his people". If a Jew doesn't observe Mosaic Law, he's not a Jew strictly speaking, he makes not much difference than a Gentile.

 

All humans are thus put under these 2 covenants without exception by default. However you can see here that today's humans are pretty much dead, as the Jews fail to keep the Mosaic Law and Gentiles fail to keep the Law written in their hearts.

 

That's why God signed off a New Covenant some 2000 years ago to cater for today's situation.

 

The New Covenant is the final covenant as the Law part has already been minimized to 0. Under this covenant, humans are saved by faith alone (i.e., Grace alone but without Law attached). It is not a 'compulsory' covenant as the 2 old covenants mentioned above. It's rather an 'optional' covenant which you can choose when you have the consent as an adult (i.e., you are mature enough to make a choice).

 

At last but not least. Other than the Law Part, the Grace part and a scope of humans, each covenant would have some core commandments acting as the foundation of the Law part of a covenant. I think that most of these commandments can be copied over from an older covenant to a newer covenant.

 

The 10 commandments are thus copied over from the Old covenant to the New covenant but except for the Sabbath. You can speculate the effect by looking into the past. How many Christians (who are saved) in the past 2000 years ever observed the Sabbath. The answer is 'Few'? Have they all broken God's commandment for them? Or rather God already foresaw this and thus intentionally excluded Sabbath from the New commandment!!!

 

Since the Law part in the New Covenant no longer exists, these commandments are no longer obeyed as Law, they are rather obeyed as Christ's teachings and His commands.

 

 

Relevant verses:

 

Romans 10:4 (NIV) 

Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

 

To the righteous, the Law no longer applied to the righteous as the primary purpose of a newer covenant is to put only the wicked to death under the judgment of Law.

 

 

Romans 5:20-21 (NIV) 

The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 

 

Each older covenant brought in Law. Along time, sin increased that even the righteous may find difficulties in keeping Law. God however will grant Grace the more such that the righteous will be spared but only the wicked will be put to death under the judgment of Law.

[Ezra]

1. We are not under law but grace.

First of all we need to understand what it means to be under grace, and not under the Law, but also the meaning of "Law" in this context.  Which brings us to the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.  In the Old Covenant, the Law was written on tables of stone (Exodus 31:18).  In the New Covenant, the Holy Spirit writes the Law on the hearts of believers (Heb 8:10). 

 

This "Law" is the Ten Commandments (Exod 20:1-17) (although "Law" can have other meanings also).  For those who are saved by grace, THE LAW IS STILL IN EFFECT, but (1) it has become the Law of Love (Rom 13:8-10) so that "love is the fulfilling of the Law", (2) it has become the Law of Liberty or the Royal Law (Jas 2:8-13; Gal 3:13) and (3) it has become the Law of Christ ( Gal 6:2) because it is obeyed by the power of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16-26).

 

So how is there still sin?

Because the "old man" ("the flesh") has not been eradicated (Rom 7:15-25).  That is why John says (1 Jn 1:8) "If we say we have no sin WE DECEIVE OURSELVES, and the truth is not in us".

 

 I didn't think there was law in the garden of Eden, so how did Adam and Eve sin?

Sin is ANYTHING that is contrary to the character of God and transgresses His commandments.  Adam was given a commandment (Gen 1:16,17, where the word COMMANDED is used). Both Adam and Eve disobeyed that commandment (Gen 3:6,7) and thereby sinned (Gen 3:8-19). 

 

If you apply the Ten Commandments here, it is the last commandment "Thou shalt not covet..." which was transgressed (Gen 3:5) .  Eve yielded to the three lusts (Gen 3:6) while Adam deliberately disobeyed God (1 Tim 2:14).  Eve was deceived, but she also wanted to be deceived (Gen 3:1-6).  And that is true for believers today also.

[Kan]

The old and new covenant were in the same era right from the beginning of the human race.

 

Abel kept the covenant of God which has to be renewed to all that are under the old, Cain made his own covenant, he started the old covenant, which is "I'll do my best to please God."

 

The new covenant, is what Abraham kept - "and Abraham believed God" and he was accounted as righteousness.

 

Righteousness never came by people trying to keep the law or the covenant. Such as by Cain, King Saul, Judas, the Jewish leaders, etc.

 

A covenant is an agreement between two parties - God and man. God is part of the old covenant as much as of the new, He stands by His law, and He does not back down from the agreement that you and I make, regardless of whether our choices are not of faith. But God will not do our part of the covenant, that is totally up to us. He has given us equal reckoning and power within the covenant or agreement. 

 

 

Our part is to obey, and we have only one choice between two responses - to trust in the power of God through the sacrifice, or to save ourselves from damnation.

[Kan]

Actually Adam started the old covenant which was to cover himself with fig leaves.

 

The Israelites, when given the opportunity to connect with God, backed off and said let this Moses speak to us and not God, then when they were presented with the law, they said all these things we will do.

 

How they were going to obey God was now the issue - they had chosen obedience which God knew was impossible without faith, but He was not going to disannul the agreement, as the Jews did by their disobedience - seeing that it was based on their own efforts without faith. Don't sinners in all ages face this? It is natural for sinners to try and save themselves, - God is saying there is a better way.

 

So the when Christ and the apostles taught the gospel as it was taught to Abel as well as all those who knew God after, they preached that the agreement did not work because of unbelief. And now a new way was open to them, the way of righteousness by faith.

 

In this new covenant or agreement, the law is fulfilled by the works of Christ in the individual, as it did to some of the ancient believers. The law is honored as spiritual and remains in the agreement. The standard of righteousness has never been removed, however the standard of sinners was to be raised from death to life in Christ. Nothing is lowered on God's side, but everything is lifted up on our side of the agreement/covenant.

[gdemoss]

Joseph, Sin is a name. A sinner is one who obeys Sin. Genesis 4, Sin wants dominion over us but we shall have dominion over him.

Sin is transgression of the law. Truth.

I am under the Law of Chtist. Anything other than obedience to Christ is sin.

My thoughts come from one of two places. I can tell where they come from by where they lead me too.

Be well my brother!

[1to3]

Sin is doing anything that leads to death.

Physical, mental, spiritual.

Sin is always led by pride.

Edited February 28, 2015 by 1to3

[Joshua-777]

James 4:17 says that to not do the good we know we should do, it is sin.   So if God leads you to do something and you refuse, you have violated His will, the good that you should have done.

 

But it's more than simply violating God's will.  Someone has said, "Sin is a personal lack of conformity to God's nature and character."   The Bible reveals who God His, nature and operations.   It gives us enough information about what God is like, communicable attributes we can emulate. That's His will, that we would strive to be like Him in the areas where it is possible.   Jesus came to model those attributes in front us.

Good answer, wow!

[1to3]

Sin is doing anything that leads to death.

Physical, mental, spiritual.

Sin is always led by pride.

 

Lucifer was the first to fall from Gods grace

because of his pride.

eve was tempted by her pride.

adam succumbed because of his pride.

 

Pride led to their eventual death

and pride follows in our genealogical adamic nature.

 

Christ Jesus came to break us free from the genealogical adamic nature of pride.

His pure untainted sin free blood was shed to cover our sins and make us acceptable in Gods sight.

we need Christ Jesus in our lives, in our hearts everyday to be overcomers of our sinful adamic nature and to overcome death.

 

We become transformed by the blood of Christ Jesus working in us everyday.

If we truly have accepted Christ Jesus in our hearts, we know when we are sinning or missing the mark.

the Holy Spirit of God, gently chastises, comes and convicts our hearts of our sins, brings us into the awareness of them  and helps us to overcome our sins, one by one, step by step.

The Holy Spirit of God in our hearts helps us to

 SEE them (our sins) for what they are and

convicts our spirit to begin to make better choices that are in alignment with Gods love and will over the alignment of our willful pride.

 

God through His only begotten Son Christ Jesus can heal us from our sins and sicknesses.

 

We need our daily spiritual bread every day.

His will not ours be done. Amen!

We need to put on our spiritual armor everyday.

We need to be in relationship with God through His Only begotten Son Christ Jesus everyday

to overcome our pride that wills us to fall into sin.

We need the Blood of Christ Jesus daily as a protection over the enemy= evil/pride/death.

 

 

The closer one draws towards God, through the blood atonement of His only begotten Son Christ Jesus, the less one desires to be a part of the world and its ways of doing things.