missmuffet Posted March 26, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,992 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,690 Content Per Day: 11.79 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2015 Can't wait for my Bridegroom to catch me away to the wedding! Me either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Sorry Ezra, but your exegesis of those passages is way off. The "Israel of God" is not the Church. The Israel of God are Jewish believers, a remnant of true Jewish followers of Jesus. The New Testament never spiritualizes "Israel" to include Gentiles. The New Jerusalem is not the Church. That is an assumption and it is false assumption. Paul uses marriage and wedding imagery, not to depict a literal marriage relationship between the Church and Jesus, but to emphasize spiritual principles of holiness, chastity, purity, sacrificial love, etc. The ONLY explicit relational models that truly depict the relationship between the Church and Jesus is that we are His body. Eph. 5: 23-33 is not a claim that the church is a bride. It is an exhortation for husbands to love their wives with the same sacrificial love with which Christ loved the Church. Nothing in that passage indicates that the Church is the bride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted March 26, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2015 Sorry Ezra, but your exegesis of those passages is way off. The "Israel of God" is not the Church. The Israel of God are Jewish believers, a remnant of true Jewish followers of Jesus. The New Testament never spiritualizes "Israel" to include Gentiles. Sorry Shiloh357, but you are simply treading on thin ice and are about to fall through: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. (Gal 6:16). Who is being addressed? The Christians - JEWS AND GENTILES -- in the regions of Galatia (the epistle to the Galatians). Who are "in Christ Jesus"? Those who have been baptized (or immersed) into His Body -- all believers (1 Cor 12:13). Who are "a new creature"? All those who are "in Christ Jesus" -- both Jews and Gentiles? (2 Cor 5:17) Who should know that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything in Christ? BOTH JEWS AND GENTILES. So this passage shoots down your erroneous belief that "the Israel of God" is not the Church (the Body) of Christ. The New Jerusalem is not the Church. That is an assumption and it is false assumption. It is one thing to simply dismiss relevant Scriptures as irrelevant. It is another to talk about "false assumptions" in the face of plain Scripture: But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Heb 12:22-24). Who are presently the residents of the Heavenly Jerusalem? 1. Countless angels 2, The general assembly and church of the firstborn -- the Church 3. God the Judge of all 4. The spirits of just men made perfect 5. Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant Jesus said that He was going to prepare a place for His saints "that where I am ye may be also" (Jn 14:3). Where is Jesus? In the New Jerusalem! Where are His saints? Where He is! Who are "written in Heaven"? The same ones who are written in "the Lamb's book of life" (His saints). And when the New Jerusalem is personified in Revelation it simply refers to the Church as either the Bride or the Lamb's Wife. As to all your other comments, they are simply an attempt to dodge the plain meaning of Scripture because it does not fit your ideas. That is not a very wise thing to do. Christians are expected to abandon false ideas when the truth is presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted March 26, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,125 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,556 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Have to agree with Ezra on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Ezra you are trying force an interpretation on to Gal. 6:16 that simply isn't there. The Israel of God is not a reference to the church. It is mentioned as a separate entity from, 'those who walk according to this rule." He refers to 'those who walk according to this rule' AND Israel of God. Those are two different group, not one and the same. If he said, "those who walk according to this rule, who are the Israel of God," you would have a case. But you make a lot of fluffy theological rhetoric that doesn't really speak to who the Israel of God is. The Israel of God are Christian Jews and Paul makes that distinction namely because He is drawing line of demarcation between the Judaizers and Jews who are believers by faith, and are the "Israel of God." They are true Israel cf. Rom. 9:6 Furthermore, there is NO way you can make the New Jerusalem, the Church. You employ some interesting hermeneutical gymnastics, but Hebrews 12 has NOTHING to do with defining who the New Jerusalem is. And furthermore, Revelation doesn't say that the New Jerusalem IS a bride at all. It says that the New Jerusalem is adorned as a bride. It is making a comparison between the beauty of a bride on her wedding day and the beauty of the New Jerusalem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted March 26, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,224 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,509 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Hi Shiloh357, You are doing some very good work there, exposing the errors. Now I want to thank you for your honesty & insight into this important matter that has clouded, I believe, many people`s thinking for it confuses the purposes of God. I thought I would be alone on this very sensitive topic, but there you are speaking very clearly. I`m quite amazed & very thankful, Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted March 26, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,224 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,509 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Hi Ezra, There are a few details that I would like to draw your attention to. 1. The two groups on Mount Zion in the third heaven – the Body of Christ (Church) & the spirits of just men. `But you have come to mount Zion, - To the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, - To an innumerable company of angels, - To the general assembly & Church of the firstborn, - To God the Judge of all, - And to the spirits of just men made perfect, - & to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.`(Heb. 12: 22 – 24) So here we read of the two groups, the Church (in the general assembly) & the spirits of just men (& women). Now who are these `spirits of just men?` If we look in the previous chapter (Heb. 11) we will see. There we read of the roll call of those just, made righteous people, men & women who trusted God for His promises to them. They looked by faith for a city which God promised them. That is why they believed they were strangers in this world. `These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, & were persuaded of them & embraced them, & confessed that they were strangers & pilgrims on the earth.`(Heb. 11: 13) They `looked for a city which had foundations, & whose builder & maker is God.` (Heb. 11: 10) 2. Next we read of the different inheritances of these two groups. `And these (spirits of just men & women) all having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise; God having some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.`(Heb. 11: 39 & 40) Two different inheritances, which are explained in more detail in God`s word, & yet the two will be connected in Christ`s purposes to rule & reign in different parts of God`s great kingdom throughout the heavens & earth. 3. Now Ezra you said - `Christ cannot be married to two Brides.` So let`s see who He said He is betrothed to, & note - FOREVER. In Hosea God says to Israel - `I will betroth you unto Me forever; yes, I will betroth you unto Me in righteousness, & in judgment, & in lovingkindness, & in mercies. I will even betroth you unto Me in faithfulness; & you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 2: 19 & 20) And who does the Lord say He is a husband to. `For your Maker is thine husband; the Lord of host is His name; & your redeemer the Holy One of Israel;…` (Isa. 54: 5) The Lord has never betrothed the Body of Christ or called Himself our husband or we, His wife. He is the HEAD of the BODY, which if you think about it is the closest relationship you can get. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted March 26, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 598 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,171 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,900 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2015 It is a good day when one can agree with Shiloh and Marilyn.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted March 26, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2015 I agree with both Ezra and Floating Axe concerning the bride of Christ which is a mystery revealed to the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Jesus' relationship to the Church is as Savior, King, The head of the Body. His relationship to individual believer is that of joint firstborn brother. There is not ONE Scripture that says the Church is the Bride of Christ. The fact that Ezra has to string unrelated verses together like lights on a Christmas tree proves that it is not a biblical position. It is one that has been stated as true for so long, that we have just accepted it. But when you fact check the claim that we are the Bride of Christ, there is not one verse that actually makes that claim. Nowhere does the "Bride" notion indicate a mystery It is never associated with "mystery" in the New Testament. Marriage is a covenant relationship and God has never made a covenant with the Church. God has only made covenant with Israel and the Church is not Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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