the bride of Christ

[Guest shiloh357]

To say that you cannot have a human Jesus with pre-existence is limiting God isn't it??   You accuse me of limiting God by saying that God could not save through the death of a mere human being, but yet you limit God by saying that Jesus cannot be both God and yet fully human.

 

I am not persecuting you.  How can one be "in Christ" if Christ was just a man?   How can the Church be Christ's bride if Christ is just a man???    I'm not trying to avoid difficult questions, but your views are embedded in false teaching about Jesus.   We cannot talk about Jesus or who He is or His relationship to the Church, when I believe the pure word of God that Jesus is God and you believe in a perverted doctrine of demons that denies the deity of Jesus.

 

The problem with our discussion is that we are approaching this from two completely different points of reference and there will be no point of agreement so long as you continue reject the Bible's teaching that Jesus is Almighty God.

[saved34]

You can have a human Jesus without pre-existence or a non-human Jesus with pre-existence. There is absolutely no way of having both.

 

InChrist, you don't strike me as an absolute denier of Christ and the truth concerning him, but Shiloh is right, and he is not attacking you on this matter, he is only defending truth that we all should defend. From your own writing I can see you are very knowledgable concerning scriputre, and you do acknowledge that Our Lord is the only way(most cults and cultist will not do this to the extreme that you do). This is the only statement I disagree with you on, brother. Before he was Jesus and found in fashion as a man, he was the Logos, with God and very God. Not just a thought, but a person of whom God the Father called God.

 

Heb 1:8  But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. 

 

The Word humbled himself and willingly became a man for us. Jesus is the great mystery of Godliness in that he is a man, and put himself in God the Father's hand, and became completely subordinate to him, but he is still God and is to be worshiped as such as everything has and will bow to him. No man can take that kind of Glory from God the Father unless he is divine. 

 

Php 2:5  In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 

Php 2:6  Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 

Php 2:7  rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 

Php 2:8  And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-- even death on a cross! 

Php 2:9  Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 

 

[saved34]

 

 

Hi Openly Curious,

Thank you for getting back to me amid all the other discussions. Now I do hear what you are saying about calling into question the inerrancy of scripture. I would not like to do that. I read P. Fairbairn`s comments as `ancient Greek interpreters,` & not those actually writing scripture.

Also you did suggest that these thoughts on the `covenant that God the Father made with God the Son,` were my opinions & I did show you 2 others who believe that also. Then in Hebrews 9 we read of the necessity of a person to die for a testament to come into force.

`For where there is a testament there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.` (Heb. 9: 16 & 17)

This to me shows that the `testament` is a subset of the covenant that God the Father made with God the Son.

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn, I just want to point out that there is no "subset" the word testament is not a subset of a covenant. The two words mean the exact same thing. They are both part of the difinition of the Greek word "diatheke".

While you did post some scripture that you've claimed showed that God the Father made a covenant with his Son, they were all out of context and as such you did not convince or prove to me this position you have taken.

 

Hi Openly Curious,

Let`s cut to the chase & apply what we believe to an example. Now we know that God made an agreement with the children of Israel, `If you do this….I (God) will do this….` (Lev. 26 & elsewhere)  What do you call this `agreement,` a covenant or a testament or both?

 

Then note for example in Hebrews –

`In that He says, “ A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is obsolete & growing old is ready to vanish away.` (Heb. 8: 13)

So if the word covenant & testament are interchangeable then how come the old `testament` where someone had to die is now obsolete?

`For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.` (Heb. 9: 16 & 17)

 

Obviously the covenant that God made with Israel dealing with the law, is not a `last will & testament` of Jesus, it is a covenant, an agreement between two parties that both have to live up to.

 

 

Now my next question is – Who are the parties involved in the `everlasting covenant,` & can you give details of that covenant?

`Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.` (Heb. 13: 20)

Marilyn.

 

 

Marilyn, it seems like you are majoring in the minors on this one, dear sister. Are you missing the point of the old sacrifices that were needed for the old covenant, as opposed to the One final sacrifice of our Lord which brings the New covenant? Everything is consummated in the sacrifice of Christ. Apart from that, even the patriarchs would be doomed. Christ's precious blood cleanses sin for ALL mankind. It just seems like you are pushing to hard to compartmentalize what Christ has done. Scripture is clear that he gave himself for the Church in a way that a man should do for his wife, and that he is going to present her to himself as a bride. Not the nation Israel, but Jew and Gentile in one body. I can't figure out what the resistance to truth is? It's as plain as day that the Church is going to be presented as a bride on that great day.  

[Guest Butero]

Jesus made the comment that before Abraham was, I am.  He was clearly saying he is God.  Lets suppose for a moment InChrist that you are right, and you don't have to accept that Jesus is God to be saved.  I don't know why you won't come out one way or the other and just answer the question.  Do you believe Jesus Christ is God?  If you would answer that with a yes or no answer, everyone could move on.  I don't know the consequences for your answer, but if you believe something, you should stand up for your beliefs.  Why hide them? 

[Guest]

FresnoJoe

Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst?

 

 

Speaking Of God

 

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

 

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

 

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. John 17:20-24

 

Do You Know The Holy Ghost?

 

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: John 15:26

[Ezra]

I can't figure out what the resistance to truth is? It's as plain as day that the Church is going to be presented as a bride on that great day.

 

Amen and Amen.  When God reveals a truth to us, our responsibility is to say "Yes, Lord", or "Amen".  To him that hath, more shall be given.  To him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away.  Those are the solemn words of Christ.

[pomegran]

Jesus says much about His deity. We must accept this if we are to be of the Truth. We build the rest of our beliefs on the Truth. It's like learning addition/subtraction, then multiplication. If we learn the fundamentals wrong, our beliefs and arguments will also be polluted.

 

Exodus 3:14

¹⁴ And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

 

John 8:57-58

⁵⁷ Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

⁵⁸ Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

[missmuffet]

Inchrist.

 

But is Jesus God???    A lot of people say that Jesus is the "Son of God"   but they don't see that as a statement of Jesus' deity.    Do you believe that Jesus was God, preexistent with God the Father before the world was created.

That goes with the Holy Trinity.

[Marilyn C]

I should clarify what I mean...

This is a spiritual commonwealth of Israel. The root of this commonwealth is the covenants made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Branches are nourished by the spiritual root which refers to the covenants God made with the patriarchs. The Gentile believers are the spiritual heirs of the promises made to the patriarchs. Gentiles are grafted into covenants made with the Patriarchs, not with the Patriarchs, themselves.

Keep in mind that in this metaphor, "grafting" doesn't equal salvation. The grafting in is the result of salvation, not salvation itself. That is why salvation doesn't make a person Jewish.

Hi Shiloh,

God`s word clearly tells us that it is Jesus who is the `root.`

Jesus says, `I am the Root & the Offspring of David,…` (Rev. 22: 16)

And `Jesus said to them, ”Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.` (John. 8: 58)

Christ is the one preceding David & Abraham & all through history. By declaring Himself as the `Root of David,` this claimant is stating in figurative language that He is the source of David`s being, ability & authority. But He is also the Root of Jesse, David`s father (Isa. 11: 1), & of everyone else that has ever had existence.

`He gives to all life, & breath, & all things.` (Acts 17: 25)

Christ is not only the visible source of all life; He is the infinite sustainer of the same, -

` For in Him we live & move & have our being,…` (Acts. 17: 28)

`For of Him & through Him & to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever.` (Rom. 11: 36)

`Of Him,` as to the source & spring; `through Him,` as to the supply & stream; &`and unto Him are all things,` as to their result & end. And note this scripture is the summing up of what the `olive tree,` is about – Christ.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Openly Curious,

You have written a lot of good thoughts there bro, how the blood of bulls & goats could not take away sin, & how in Jesus, by His blood the promises are fulfilled.

I would however, like to point out that the covenant God established with Abraham was not one between two parties in which the covenant depended on each fulfilling their agreements. Abraham was only told of some of the details of God`s everlasting covenant, some of the promises & some of the privileges. King David, the prophets & the Apostle Paul were all given more revelation, more understanding of God`s plans & purposes.

The source of the covenant is Christ, for it is in Him, are all the promises. If you just see what was given to Abraham then you do not fully understand the inheritance of the Body of Christ.

Marilyn.